Wrath of the Righteous: What do we know?


Wrath of the Righteous

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MMCJawa wrote:

Because:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoilered:

Spoiler:
That sounds like they don't get anywhere near the full force of it (if they were near enough to get the full force of hundreds of "flaring out" wardstones to the face, then they should be the aforementioned extra crispy). Most of the power sounds like it's rushing out all the other wardstones to eradicate the demon armies (which I assume shuts them all down in the process), and the PCs just get a chunk of possibly demon-tainted wardstone artifact power from the one they're near to.

I think that if I eventually run WotR (and I do hope it does well, to help get future Mythic APs if nothing else), I may just scribble over that part to say the wardstones go kaboom individually with enough force to wreck everything close by along the border, and the PCs manage to null the effect near the damaged one they're at by sucking up the power from it. And the side-effect is that they get mythic tiers out of what they absorb, but unless somebody was around the other wardstones to manage the bleed-off or possibly aim it at the demons somehow, then there's nothing to stop them from going out at full force.


(And yes, this hundreds-down-to-four discrepancy is something that my players will ask about if I run WotR as-is, from the sounds of things. I know them well.)


It's not demon-tainted. Or at least...

Spoiler:
It's not demon-tainted unless the PCs fail to stop the corruption of the Wardstone as mentioned in an alternative scenario in the module. It's the largest fragment of the wardstone for this city and is specifically locked in a cage using a Wish spell by the Demons in order to prevent its power from affecting the Demons in the city.

Just saying.


I did say possibly, didn't I?


Alleran, I think the discrepancy might come from:

Spoiler:
It seems you may be overestimating the power of the Wardstones as Minor Artifacts, or underestimating the level of power associated with Ascension to Mythic, or a combination of both.

Just because the Wardstones are Minor Artifacts doesn't mean they each contain a ton of uber-power. Minor Artifacts run the spectrum (just as Major Artifacts do) and the fact that there are so many Wardstones coupled with the fact that they require maintenance or are (relatively) easy to destroy indicates that their "Artifact" status mostly comes in the form of the fact that they're not easy to replicate using standard rules - which is the same for all Minor Artifacts. A Philosopher's Stone and a Talisman of the Sphere are both Minor Artifacts but if a player character absorbed the power from one of these devices into their body I'm not sure if I'd consider it to be nearly potent enough to grant Mythic powers; unique and nifty powers, sure, but hardly a cause of Ascension. Same goes for individual Wardstones.

The other side of this is Ascension itself is a Really Big Deal. This puts them on the path to being able to accumulate Tiers and become literal Demigods (if they want). I'd say the entire ring of Wardstones funneled into four (to six or eight) people certainly qualifies for an investiture that essentially imbues young-Demigodhood into its recipients. Really, what's one or two Wardstones in the face of a Demigod's power. But the whole lot - that seems appropriate to me.

All of that is just my opinion, of course. I suppose it's all about expectation management.


Spoilered for safety:

Spoiler:
Technically, you could be a demigod by the end of the second part or start of the third part of WotR if you take Divine Source. But I would laugh at that 9th level 3rd tier demigod even dreaming that they could handle some of the stuff out there. They certainly couldn't handle high-level. Even mid-level would be pushing it in some cases. A demigod is not necessarily godlike, if you take my meaning.

Nor can I really agree that the wardstones aren't a Big Deal, even on their lonesome. The most minor of artifacts is still dangerous enough that attempting to destroy one with 9th level magic, has a chance of backfiring on the caster and destroying their spellcasting so utterly that no mortal magic can restore it to them (assuming you can get it to work in the first place, since a 20th level caster only has a one-in-five chance of affecting them). Similarly, artifacts are not subject to antimagic no matter their stripe, and creating the most minor of artifacts is impossible unless you're either mythic (and take the Legendary Item route) or you're a 20th level Alchemist who has specifically studied to learn how to create a Philosopher's Stone. Or Sun Orchid Elixir, in Artokus' case.

(Note: I haven't checked to see all the different ways to create artifacts. There may be others, but those are the two I can think of right now, and I think it nicely illustrates my point, especially in the Alchemist case, where even creating just one type of "minor minor artifact" is an extraordinarily difficult task limited to only the very best, who explicitly study how to create one and unlock the secret of doing so. How many 20th level alchemists are there in Golarion that we know of? Half a dozen? Less?)

These are powerful people. Immensely so. And artifacts are still in a class of their own, non-replicable. Yes, some artifacts have methods of destruction that are particularly easy to exploit. The Staff of the Magi, for example. A Philosopher's Stone is made to be used (mind you, I always found it hilarious that the easiest way to destroy a Philosopher's Stone is by using it rather than the Destruction method). But they're still artifacts, not mere magic items. Any 20th level wizard with the right knowledge of crafting magic items and the proper spells (and components) can theoretically make a Staff of Power. The same isn't true for a Staff of the Magi. The most powerful item I can think of that does roughly the same thing as a wardstone is the 3.5e weirdstone. That's something on the order of 200-250,000gp per item, yet each one only affects about a mile - the wardstones are containing something immeasurably bigger and sometimes reach several times further than a weirdstone can.

And, too, what people are saying now seems to indicate not that all the power is going into the PCs, but that the wardstones are expending most of their power wiping out demon armies around the borders and shutting down in the process (burn bright and burn fast, so to speak), and the PCs get a little touch of it, just enough to ignite their own "mythic potential" (spark of mythic power) and put them on the path you refer to.


Artifacts Are Not Toys, I suppose - I dislike marginalising how "high-up" 9th level spells or artifacts can be. They're at or beyond the apex. After all, a wish spell is altering reality itself to suit your desires - it's a Big Deal all on its own, and I noted a few artifact things in the spoilered section.

Like I said, I'll probably be rewriting that part of WotR if I wind up running it for my players.


Alleran wrote:

Spoilered for safety:

** spoiler omitted **...

Oh, I totally agree with you there. As a GM I take great efforts to emphasis the fact that Artifacts and high-level spells (7th and above in my opinion) are a really big deal. I make every effort to treat high-level stuff with the respect it deserves. I didn't mean to come across in my last post as being dismissive of even Minor Artifacts. Rather, I just think Mythic Power is an even Bigger Deal.

Spoiler to discuss your last spoiler:
First, I agree that a Demigod doesn't mean "Godlike". Though in a way it does, in the sense that it takes monumental effort to achieve Ascension. As you state, there are very few 20th level casters hanging around on Golarion. But I posit that there are even fewer casters who are Mythic (regardless of level).

Really, I think that's the sense the designers are trying to convey with having the destruction of the Wardstones triggering Ascension: it's just that rare and important. And using what we currently know of Golarion as our basis of Mythic assumptions - most Mythic NPCs in the setting weren't born with Mythic power nor did they begin Ascension at low levels. It seems to be something (at least within the setting - not the system-neutral hardcover) that you don't normally attempt to achieve until high levels.

As you point out, Artokus had to create the Sun Orchid Elixir to step onto the path of Mythic (as far we currently know). We don't know what triggered Aroden's 1st Tier but one of his Milestones was raising the Isle of Kortos and the Starstone from the Inner Sea (though this may have been his 1st Tier Ascension trigger). Nethys founded the Empire of Osirion and destroyed Ulunat as one of his Milestones. All of these NPCs (and more) were already high-level when they began to walk the path of Mythic.

My point being, I think it would take an even more impressive or at least equally and suitably impressive feat as the ones above to jump-start a group of low-level characters onto the same path of greatness. And yes, all of this may be rendered slightly moot by the fact that people are now saying the Ascension plays out slightly differently anyway.

I'm actually really looking forward to Mythic Realms as I'm hoping it may shed some light on this very subject - how Mythic is viewed, handled, and weighed on Golarion relative to "basic" high-level content.

Slightly more on topic: can't wait for my copy to arrive at my FLGS. Counting the days.


I can't get the hardcopies. Money is tight, so I'm relegated to PDFs. Since I'm digesting Mythic Adventures and want to see where WotR goes, I've held off for now.

Spoiler:
True, I think it does bear noting that beyond some references around the place (e.g. Lord Gyr is a Mythic Rogue, or the various listed "+" signs next to NPCs in the Inner Sea Magic book), we don't have a clear picture of just how much (or how little) of Golarion is mythic in nature. And in the case of Inner Sea Magic, since it's describing particularly notable ones or famous ones, like the Runelords, they will often be very high level before adding mythic stuff on anyway. I think Jakalyn (Mistress of the Red Mantis) is 19th level but also mythic to some degree (or at least has some sort of "specialness" about her), for one, and Gyr is as well.

As far as Aroden is concerned, without the rules for "Mythic Founts of Power" (which will be in Mythic Realms, and may give us more ways of handling Ascension, even specific artifacts like the Starstone that can do so), the easiest way to look at his ascension would be that he was already mythic to some extent before he lifted the Starstone, but doing so counted as a trial that made him a demigod, or took him to the point that he could become a demigod if he wanted to. After all, Baba Yaga is evidence that a mythic individual can choose if they want to be a deity and do things like grant spells; she chooses not to because it's just more people whining at her to give them things.

I suppose it does come back to the discrepancy of hundreds down to four in the end, though. If it is a lot of wardstones kick-starting somebody to Mythic status through a direct transfer of power (although the PCs are supposed to already have mythic potential via their traits and it's starting to sound like they just get a nudge over the line with a little bit of power), not only does it still give me images of extra-crispy PC chicken - so to speak - it also doesn't seem like one mythic tier would be enough to symbolise something so massive "downloading" into them. Mythic Adventures includes an adventure whereby 7th level characters are instantly imbued with three mythic tiers upon reception of items from long-dead heroes (the flaw being that they have to keep the items with them or they lose the power). Unfortunately, for a 6-part AP you can't really drop three tiers on the PCs from the get-go.

(Whoops. Spoiler tags should now be in place.)


Alleran wrote:
I can't get the hardcopies. Money is tight, so I'm relegated to PDFs. Since I'm digesting Mythic Adventures and want to see where WotR goes, I've held off for now.

I feel ya there. I just got back from my friend's wedding halfway across the country (Canada) which pretty much chewed up all my disposable income for the summer. I've been buying the bare minimum these past few months. In fact, Mythic Adventures and WotR Part One are taking my last bit of disposable cash for the rest of the month. It helps that I like Kraft Dinner, saves me some money on groceries. ;)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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To try to clear up some stuff...

Spoiler:
The PCs are destined to become mythic already at the start of their lives—or at the point where they gain their mythic campaign traits, at least. The fact that they essentially trigger a chain reaction in ALL of the wardstones, causing what is essentially a power surge that causes each and every one to burn out and push back the demon armies just before those same armies manage to "reverse the polarities" of the wardstones and turn their power to evil and thus corrupt all the crusaders massed along the border is the thing that "unlocks" their mythic powers. It's the spark that ascends them to mythic. It's not the SOURCE of their mythic power.

That all said, you should absolutely adjust the event as necessary to fit with your play style and group. Games always benefit from the GM customizing them to fit the specific player group!

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