A friend and I both love the idea of having a flying race at low levels. In this case, it would be a race of winged kobolds.
However, we're also worried about breaking the system (my friend moreso than myself). I think having the kobolds with Fly 30, Clumsy might not cause too much trouble due to the limitations on wearing armor, how long they can fly and other factors. My friend is less sure.
I should also mention that the world we're working on is based on this article - so 5th level is the highest most folks are ever likely to see.
Has anyone had any experience with first-level or low-level fliers?
Strix
Thank you, but I'm aware of other races that can fly at 1st level. The worry is how this plays out. That is, we both like the idea of a first-level flying race, but we're worried that it will cause balance issues with other 1st level races. That is, we aren't sure what sort of Munchkin things can happen.
Try building your winged kobold dudes with the rules for custom races in the Advanced Race Guide. Spend an amount of points equal or around the other races that'll be used in your game.
If you can get what you want and still be in the same rough amounts as the other races, you should probably be golden.
I've dmed a game with a super genius dragon rider which can fly from first level (riding on his dragon). It wasnt really an issue. Sure it was useful for him, but it wasnt game breaking. So long as the whole party cant fly, all it does is shift the focus on other characters when enemies cant reach the flyer. That can actually ramp up the tension of encounters and such.
3.5 book "races of the dragon" kobolds wings are a feat there
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StrixThank you, but I'm aware of other races that can fly at 1st level. The worry is how this plays out. That is, we both like the idea of a first-level flying race, but we're worried that it will cause balance issues with other 1st level races. That is, we aren't sure what sort of Munchkin things can happen.
Well, since Paizo published the Strix, then obviously they think it's balanced.
It's not actually fair, for a primarily ranged character, but it is probably fine for melee fighters.
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The CR of encounters is based on more than just AC, dmg, etc. It is also based around obstacles (a chasm) and new abilities (energy drain). As a character rises in power, he/she gains access to the counters to these new aspects of the game.
Fly is the first ability/spell that allows true movement through air. It is a 3rd level spell and is accessible at 5th level. The limitation to this spell is that it only lasts 1 min/level.
By giving a character race the ability to fly, you are essentially giving him an unlimited usage of the 3rd level spell Fly at first level. A wall is in your way? Fly over it. You need to scout a village? Fly over it. A swift river blocks your escape from an army of orcs? Fly to the other side and laugh. The list is endless.
Now lets go to the lowest ability (we are skipping levitate). Feather Fall is a spell that allows you to stop the descent of a person or object. Object, nice bonus. Unfortunately there is a limitation to this spell, it lasts for 1 round/level.
By giving a character race the ability to glide, you are essentially giving him an unlimited usage of the 1st level spell Feather Fall as self only. Fought to the top of a tower and need to escape pursuit from below? Jump out a window. Running for your life from a horde of giant, hungry frogs? Jump off the cliff. The uses of glide are without a doubt more situational but they exist, and exist more often that you might assume.
There is a reason why these spells were given to players with limitations. When you alter their place in the game world you alter your game world. Everything else will need to adjust, otherwise you will get an influx of kobold players.
There are additional problems that may not be seen as well. Take for instance armor. To find armor for a creature with wings is hard. To find magical armor for a creature with wings is even harder. This places more work upon the GM. I personally feel we need less rules than more. Yes, I realize this is a penalty for the flying race but it is a penalty for the GM as well.
When you give a character race the ability to fly or even glide, you are breaking the design of the game. I am not saying you should or should not allow such a thing. I am simply saying the game changes and so do the adventures.
Additionally, it was stated that Paizo published <insert whatever text> so they must think it is balanced. That is a dangerous assumption. We all know for a fact that much of what Paizo has published is not balanced, even to this day. I am not trying to insult Paizo. I adore this company. I will continue to purchase from them. I just have come to the realization that I must player test the new content as the company, well all companies, are unable to balance games without massive player testing...and that occurs after releasing the content.
Gnome Sorcerer (Sylvan) small size...
Rocs taken as animal companions by druids or rangers are typically newly hatched birds—a baby roc is the size of a person and ready for flight and hunting within minutes of hatching. Unfortunately for druids seeking animal companions of legendary size, an animal companion roc is limited to Large size—still large enough for a Medium druid or ranger to use the flying beast as a mount. [emphasis added]Roc Companions
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; AC +5 natural armor; Speed 20 ft., fly 80 ft.; Attack 2 talons (1d4), bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 19, Con 9, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11; Special Qualities low-light vision.
Thus we have flying mount at level 1 for Gnome or Halfling Druid,or Sylvan blooded Sorcerer. . . I think. I would still check with GM because Flight is generally limited to levels 5+. If I wasn't lazy I would check Additional Resources and the FAQs for more information.
Also...
Race Builder (4 points) Flight (30', Clumsy, improvable for 2 additional points...)
Additionally, you can give SLAs to non advanced races (for example. feather fall) which would limit the abuse potential pointed out above.
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There's also the Giant Wasp animal companion which gives druids the ability to fly for a (functionally) unlimited amount of time. There are definitely several ways to obtain flying mounts or flight at low levels. How badly flying PC's will impact the campaign is dependant entirely upon the GM and the type of adventure the party faces.
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Maybe it was not clear before but the options must come from the core books (CRB, B1, possibly B2).
Giant wasps are from Ultimate Magic so they are out. Secondly, they are a single solution as is the roc.
Rocs would be a way to get around the benchmark yet a player would need to have a rather generous GM to allow such a thing to happen. Let's say you found one. In this situation the player must also be a druid and a small creature to fly on it, which severely limits player class selection.
We are talking about making a race that allows all classes to have flight at level 1.
I am not trying to crush this dream. I very much would like to find a broad and logical solution. Please continue to post.
D&D 3E's Raptoran race handled this by far the best, IMO.
You start w/ wings but can only glide with them. Then at 5 HD, you can fly for a few rounds at a time, and are free to space them out with gliding to effectively keep the flight going for long stretches, but you still don't have true unlimited flight and needing to intersperce gliding makes it inefficient and inconvenient. Then at 10th HD, you have the endurance or whatever to fly without any limits other than general forced march, etc... type rules.
Instead, in PF, you get a race that just can outright fly at 60 ft speed right from level 1.
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The thing about flight is the GM just needs to account for it.
You want to scout the Orc encampment don't forget the penalties to perception checks for distance? Also how do you plan to hide, or do you plan to just be a flying target?
There's a chasm, how do you plan to get the heavily armoured dwarf across. Fly over a rope so the rest can climb across.
The hall is tight and low, fly checks take a -5 penalty.
Ranged weapons and tanglefoot bags can all pluck an overly ambitious bird from the sky.
Try building your winged kobold dudes with the rules for custom races in the Advanced Race Guide. Spend an amount of points equal or around the other races that'll be used in your game.If you can get what you want and still be in the same rough amounts as the other races, you should probably be golden.
The racial points aren't that much of a problem. The issue is more along the lines of dealing with walls, chasms, etc that most characters would have to climb over, jump over, or find some other way around other than flight.
I've dmed a game with a super genius dragon rider which can fly from first level (riding on his dragon). It wasnt really an issue. Sure it was useful for him, but it wasnt game breaking. So long as the whole party cant fly, all it does is shift the focus on other characters when enemies cant reach the flyer. That can actually ramp up the tension of encounters and such.
Okay, thanks, this is pretty much the type of advice I and my friend are looking for - whether having the ability to fly at 1st level is going to cause an issue or not. We both want a flying race, but not if it means giving a DM a headache or more work.
The thing about flight is the GM just needs to account for it.
You want to scout the Orc encampment don't forget the penalties to perception checks for distance? Also how do you plan to hide, or do you plan to just be a flying target?
There's a chasm, how do you plan to get the heavily armoured dwarf across. Fly over a rope so the rest can climb across.
The hall is tight and low, fly checks take a -5 penalty.
Ranged weapons and tanglefoot bags can all pluck an overly ambitious bird from the sky.
Well, this all makes sense. I'm just hoping more people with experience dealing with low-level flying characters will post their experiences - whether it was easy or hard to work around.
Another game I played, from chaosium, based on Elric/hawkmoon (cant recall the name of the game) had the winged myriihnn which was basically a Hawkman, didn't screw things up in that game.
THAT being said, I generally like to discourage flying at any level in my games.
I generally dont like the idea of wingless flight. It also adds a bit of difficulty to the game if you cant just fly around everything.
My games also happen to be very 3D with lots of jumping, falling, climbing and swinging etc.
Casting fly just makes it 2d again, to me.
3.5 races of the dragon was cool, especially the winged kobolds, very hickman/weis draconian.... on the midget monkey scale.
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D&D 3E's Raptoran race handled this by far the best, IMO.
You start w/ wings but can only glide with them. Then at 5 HD, you can fly for a few rounds at a time, and are free to space them out with gliding to effectively keep the flight going for long stretches, but you still don't have true unlimited flight and needing to intersperce gliding makes it inefficient and inconvenient. Then at 10th HD, you have the endurance or whatever to fly without any limits other than general forced march, etc... type rules.
Instead, in PF, you get a race that just can outright fly at 60 ft speed right from level 1.
This approach might be the way I choose to go if we make the race. It will force me to create a new mechanic just for this race but at least there is a workaround.
It's not balanced for first level. If you get access to it near 5th level, then it's somewhat balanced.
Agreed with the Raptoran approach.
Best Approach to keep the Forums Happy: Gliding Wings or Vestigial Wings then a Feat that allows you to actually fly.
If your group is fine with it then you are fine with a Level 1 Flying Race.
If you actually look at it the Race is paying quite a bit for a good flying ability.
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Kobolds sorely need a buff to be a useful PC race anyhow. I know the race builder's RP system is too broken to be a good measure of power most of the time, but it's quite telling that kobolds are only worth 5 RP... and they spend 5 RP on bonuses to Profession (Miner) and Craft (Trapmaking).
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Kobolds sorely need a buff to be a useful PC race anyhow. I know the race builder's RP system is too broken to be a good measure of power most of the time, but it's quite telling that kobolds are only worth 5 RP... and they spend 5 RP on bonuses to Profession (Miner) and Craft (Trapmaking).
I couldn't agree more with this statement.
My Kobold PCs all come from a Sub-Race/Tribe where they lose some of their Minuses.
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Wings really are not that broken. There are lots of situations, like in a dungeon, where the DM can rightly rule you can't fly. It can protect you from melee, but spells and ranged weapons are still a threat. If something happens that prevents you from flying while high up, such as getting hit with a sleep spell, then you are pretty much dead. After a few levels, the advantage dies down a lot because other characters can cast fly.
DMing for a race with wings just means making sure to add a few challenges for them. Give enemies ranged weapons. Use terrain that affects where they can fly. Nets are the bane of winged opponents.
When building flying races, I always try to look for a way to add a dissadvantage. Maybe unbalanced ability scores or some special racial weakness. A particularly useful trick is prevent them from using their hands while they are flying. For instance, consider wings like a bat where the front appendages are the wings. They can fly over opsticles but are going to have trouble fighting and casting spells.
It also underscores, quite lovely that not all 0HD races are meant for PCs. Strix were always meant to be for NPCs, and not PCs. The 0HD rules were there just for GMs, much like Drow Nobles.
It also underscores, quite lovely that not all 0HD races are meant for PCs. Strix were always meant to be for NPCs, and not PCs. The 0HD rules were there just for GMs, much like Drow Nobles.
I agree that the drow noble was a npc/gm only race but strix.. no
It also underscores, quite lovely that not all 0HD races are meant for PCs. Strix were always meant to be for NPCs, and not PCs. The 0HD rules were there just for GMs, much like Drow Nobles.I agree that the drow noble was a npc/gm only race but strix.. no
The guy who got Strix into the game disagrees with your disagreement. :)
The guy who got Strix into the game disagrees with your disagreement. :)It also underscores, quite lovely that not all 0HD races are meant for PCs. Strix were always meant to be for NPCs, and not PCs. The 0HD rules were there just for GMs, much like Drow Nobles.I agree that the drow noble was a npc/gm only race but strix.. no
Hope my gm will never see this post ;)
I would simply make the Strix PCs all have the Wing-Clipped Trait. Maybe also add in a Level Requirement on the Stretched Wings Feat.
Flight on a single character isn't game-breaking, although it can be annoying at times. You have to account for it when creating puzzles and terrain, but isn't otherwise that unbalancing.
Remember: while ONE character can fly across the river, or out of the reach of their enemies, the rest of their party CAN'T and now are left one person short, essentially, for overcoming whatever challenge they have been presented with.
Also, in dungeons, flight tends to be fairly useless much of the time, low level characters are quite likely to not have a good enough Fly skill to auto-succeed on the check required to remain airborne when they get hit...put some more archers in your encounters, and your flying characters will learn rather quickly that flying isn't always the defense it's cracked up to be. Take a level 1 strix, flying 30 ft. up and plinking away at your enemies with a bow. He gets hit by an arrow, fails his check, and now takes an additional 3d6 damage from falling. Now he's probably unconscious and near dead.
Remember, while the game generally makes assumptions about what is appropriate for what level, and in what amount of availability, it also has exceptions to most of these assumptions in large numbers.
Or the Wizard who is so used to playing with ground based characters that he always detonates his Fireballs in the air and hits the Flying PC... Ever. Single. Time.