Non-Combat Abilities

[Uthreth Baelcoressitas]

So there's a lot of focus on combat and, admittedly, combat is going to be a large part of any MMO. However, most people who play PnP Pathfinder like a mix of both combat and roleplaying, usually averaging around 50/50 (some prefer tons of roleplaying, and some prefer more tactical combat like myself). What kind of attention has been given to non combat roleplaying abilities? Skills like diplomacy, intimidate, sense motive, perform, handle animal, and many of the knowledge skills can be used outside of combat when interacting with NPCs (or animals). Some of these I can see immediate uses for, but I really hope that diplomacy doesn't boil down to just getting better prices. Someone could have these skills as the focus of their character and in PnP that's perfectly viable and you can avoid combat encounters by talking your way out of them. Will this kind of thing be possible?

[Andius]

I'm at least hoping that their intention is to leave them out of the initial crowd forge release, or at least only include very watered down versions. Combat is kind of an essential thing to get right from the start, as is crafting, skill training, and a few other things.

Once they have all the core mechanics well developed then they should go after things like diplomacy and really take the time to get them right. Not just some afterthought skill that gets used for threat management or in an occasional quest.

[Tahotai]

I'm not sure how much design space there is for social skills.

Social skills are only going to come into play when interacting with NPCs obviously. So they work for handling things like lower prices, increases in reputation, extra dialogue choices. All that stuff is easy. Going beyond that to the extent of allowing you to solve situations diplomatically instead of militarily might be too difficult to program well and too easy to game.

Now it'd be absolutely amazing if they designed a system where you could choose to negotiate with the centaurs who want the land in your hex instead of fighting them off and design it in such a way that it felt balanced, meaningful and fun, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

[Richter Bones]

It would be neat to see more options to approach an encounter then combat. Diplomacy might be a good way to convince a settlement of Orcs to move further away rather than wiping them out. Maybe even strike a deal with them to increase trade.

Diplomacy could also be used for leadership positions in settlements to help guide or increase the productivity of the settlement.

[Dario]

I think Richter hit the best outcome I could see for social skills. Settlement Management, and I'm still not super sold on that.

[Dakcenturi]

If they didn't implement social skills from the get go, maybe they could at least implement a /roll system (already suggested) but allow you to roll with your stat bonuses.

IE you would type /roll 1d20+IntMod or something like that. This way, it would still be available for roleplaying at the minimum and wouldn't require a huge amount of extra dev time.

[Valandur]

Check out this bit from the Fear the Boot interview..

Quote:

Mark: Well, yeah, again, we really want your actions to be persistent, and I think that’s the big advantage of this type of game, is that we’re trying to make sure you make a real impact on the world at all times. So if you kill that orc chieftain, the orc chieftain is dead, and you’re going to drive the orcs out of that area.

We’re still evolving the system, but we do want a system by which all the monster factions have their own agenda. The orc horde is trying to do something, they’re trying to invade the settlement or invade the territory, and you either enlist that captain or you beat him back or you do whatever, but you actually progress essentially a story that relates to those orcs in your hex.

It seems they are wanting to have lots of options when dealing with NPC's so there may be room for things like Diplomacy to actually allow you to do more then just kill mobs over and over.

[LazarX]

Social skills work in game because on both ends of the interaction there is a presumably sentient person dealing with results.

With programmed AI's, not so much.

[Chiassa]

One of the things that appeals to me about the game is the idea of playing a character who isn't combat focused. I really don't want to wait until sometime after release to have social skills become a viable playstyle.

[Imbicatus]

Chiassa wrote:

One of the things that appeals to me about the game is the idea of playing a character who isn't combat focused. I really don't want to wait until sometime after release to have social skills become a viable playstyle.

I think Bard/Rogue style diplomat skills have a great opportunity in PFO to be far more useful than in any other D&D/d20 based computer games in the past.

I am thinking of the early days of SWG when dancers were actually players hanging out in taverns.

It's too early to know, but with the ammunt of times Diplomacy has come up in the blogs, this has to be something the devs are thinking of.

[Jameow]

Perhaps we need some city management skills that aren't "official" (eg not the mayor etc) for influencing settlements, perhaps various cultural influences that affect the development of a settlement, affecting different things that can be unlocked based on the culture of the people living there, rather than just the management (it's all well and good for the mayor to build a new library, but if all the citizens are illiterate, consider books to be a waste of space, or wanted a temple/arena/public garden instead, building one isn't much use)

[Dario]

Chiassa wrote:

One of the things that appeals to me about the game is the idea of playing a character who isn't combat focused. I really don't want to wait until sometime after release to have social skills become a viable playstyle.

Actually, that's one of the beautiful things about PFO, is that a social character is a viable choice in the total absence of any mechanics. The difference being that without mechanics, it's actually you being social with the human beings behind the other characters. I'd love to see some social skills implemented mechanically to influence NPCs and settlements, but playing a social character as a diplomat, or con artist, or courtesan is going to be an option right out of the gate.

[Chiassa]

Dario wrote:

Chiassa wrote:

One of the things that appeals to me about the game is the idea of playing a character who isn't combat focused. I really don't want to wait until sometime after release to have social skills become a viable playstyle.

Actually, that's one of the beautiful things about PFO, is that a social character is a viable choice in the total absence of any mechanics. The difference being that without mechanics, it's actually you being social with the human beings behind the other characters. I'd love to see some social skills implemented mechanically to influence NPCs and settlements, but playing a social character as a diplomat, or con artist, or courtesan is going to be an option right out of the gate.

I should have been more clear; it's the mechanical implementation I want to see incorporated with development from the beginning, and not left out of the initial release (as suggested by an earlier poster) in favor of prioritizing combat. Trying to fit later-developed non-combat systems into an established combat-focused release would just reinforce the sense of social skills being an afterthought.

[Jameow]

I think even when things aren't included in the initial release, it's important to already have the framework part of the design, or you end up with the uo "tacked on system upon tacked on system" and eventually you've created a giant, clunky behemoth that's three times the work for a quarter of the outcome that system is meant to give you.

You can only tack things on so much, so the more you integrate into the initial design and mechanisms, the better.

[Dorje Sylas]

The place you're likely to "social" skills are in guild/company/settlement/kingdom management, and their likely going to be fairly passive or used to unlock certain features. Fleet Command skills in EVE were technically "social" skills. Ditto went for passive bonuses on rewards obtained from NPC missions. In EVE example a person with higher "social" skills to bump the PvE mission bonuses up was usually the person to go and start the mission, in effect the best schmoozer talked to the NPC instead of the rough and gruff combat powerhouse. It's little things like that which we will hopefully see.

I was never the NPC schmoozer, that was other people. No, my character got focused in telling other people how to fly their ships better in formation (fleet commanding). He wasn't the crackest of shots or the best at cranking a drill, but he could yell at about 9 other people very well and make them better. I didn't even call targets to shoot at, I delighted that downward most of the time to squaddies who knew their ship types.

*edit* I miss my Orca (mid-tier minning command ship).... I really do. That big flying 2x4, that turned about as well as a 2x4 swong underwater.

[Dario]

Well, Chiassa, what sorts of things would you like to see the social skills do? The more ideas we can give them, the easier it is for them to include it. =P

Also, by "initial release" do you mean Early Enrollment or Open Enrollment?

[Drakhan Valane]

Dorje Sylas wrote:

I was never the NPC schmoozer, that was other people. No, my character got focused in telling other people how to fly their ships better in formation (fleet commanding). He wasn't the crackest of shots or the best at cranking a drill, but he could yell at about 9 other people very well and make them better. I didn't even call targets to shoot at, I delighted that downward most of the time to squaddies who knew their ship types.

*edit* I miss my Orca (mid-tier minning command ship).... I really do. That big flying 2x4, that turned about as well as a 2x4 swong underwater.

My Fleet Command is at 4. My Orca is a beautiful, beautiful ship. Tier 2 gang-links on it now. ^_^

Back to the real topic, I would like The Non-Combat skills to be something we crowdforge in Beta. Combat should as well, but it's more critical that combat at least has a solid framework. Non-combat should have a rough framework. I know none of us will be truly happy with their first iteration of either. But that's what crowdforging is about!

[Being]

If we are to crowdforge non-combat skills so that the developer can include stubs built into the core onto which these skills can be bolted when ready then we should survey their categories, determine what they individually are, and also detail what they relate to.

Now, much of this has already been done in various sourcebooks from several PnP systms but those cannot establish the relationships to other systems we know or can predict to be in Pathfinder Online.

Social skills relate to Diplomacy, which relates to how well a settlement runs. It also relates to information gathering. Should there be a system in the game where we hear what is happening in other settlements, and could we get more and better information with better social skills? Might not a settlement with high average social skills gain trade advantages? Perhaps being able to trade farther? Perhaps. if settlements gain a share of trade (taxes) that happens there, should the share not be higher? And what kind of measurable activities would advance social skills?

If we fully extend understanding of our desired non-combat skills to include what they relate to, how they relate, how it might be an advantage, how it might be a weakness, then I think the likelyhood and interest for such systems will be increased for the developers.

Just thinking outloud. Sorry if I interrupted.

[Richter Bones]

Because of the scope of Pathfinder, non-combat skills should be available by the time beta starts. To really test out the game you are going to need crafters, traders, and builders. Since we are paying a monthly fee when beta starts I would expect that the core mechanics be in place.

[Dario]

You should probably read the Land Rush post and adjust your expectations.

Quote:

During Early Enrollment we will not have the Territorial Control game mechanic implemented. During this period, Settlements will not face the threat of being displaced by hostile forces. Near the end of Early Enrollment we will be expanding the territory in the game to include a lot of unclaimed Hexes where players will be able to create new Settlements even if they were not participants in this Promotion. After a suitable interval, the Territorial Warfare system will be introduced, and Settlements will begin to vie with one another for Territorial Control.

You'll be provided with a Guild Lodge in your Hex that you can restrict access to and probably some other early buildings as the Settlement system matures.

The entire Settlement system will be implemented incrementally during Early Enrollment so issues of Settlement Charters, Settlement Alignments, Settlement Management, etc. will all be determined later as a part of the Crowdforging process and you need not worry about them for the purposes of this promotion. Until the system is more robustly implemented, these initial Settlements will not affect a character's ability to train skills and gain character abilities.

[Richter Bones]

*raises the white flag*

Here's to hoping that they build the framework to implement after beta starts.

[Keign]

I would certainly like non-combat skills to be just as useful as combat skills.

To be more specific, these are the kinds of things I would like to be able to do, mechanically, via 'social' skills:

Talk down the bad guys: I would like to be able to Intimidate an Orc into leaving the area - or convince a bandit that my goods are not worth his life, or a bounty on his head. Obviously, if combat has already started, that's not really an option short of magic (Charm Person, anyone?) but particularly if I go to a camp, I think it's reasonable to be able to talk things out - if I could send them off to harass my rivals or enemies, even better!

Have more efficient NPCs: When you're trying to get the grunts to work, it doesn't hurt to be charming about it. I would like to be able to motivate a harvesting camp to be built faster, or a mine to produce more quickly. Make it cheaper, while you're at it.

Hide who I am: Disguise is social - right? I think a murderer should have the option to craft a disguise and have it hide any tags of 'criminal' or 'murderer' on them, at least to those who aren't the most Perceptive. This is not because I'm a mass-murderer or griefer or anything, but because it just makes sense to me. Oh, and being able to pretend to be a member of a different race could help with the aforementioned Talking down the Bad Guys thing.

Discovering quest lines: This pretty much boils down to getting extra dialogue options and gaining renown faster, in my book. The handsome knight with the golden hair just gets talked about more than the guy with three teeth left.

Perform!: I don't care if the NPCs throw gold at me for putting on a good show or if it's the players, but I do think there needs to be a way to put on a performance - a set of abilities, most likely, that you can use to impress people. I wouldn't object to being able to Fascinate crowds of people, either.(And if players are stingy, that's sad for the singers, but I do see a market for this.) Heck, just make it so you can learn multiple /dance moves and that would make plenty of happy people.

Better prices: Yeah, I know, things cost money or whatever. But I guess having a discount(and higher selling prices) with NPCs would be a reasonable and nice thing to have. (Money-grubbers.)

Open up shop: I do believe you should prove yourself something of a salesman before you can open a shop of your own - you can always throw money at a real salesman to give his business to you if you don't have the time to work on that yourself.

Unfortunately, that is all that is coming to mind at this moment. I'm sure I'll come up with more later.

[Being]

Intimidation would be both novel and a great aid to help the True Neutral avoid moving his alignment too far toward the Good.

For Performers it would be great to have a hat they could set on the ground to accept donations. Money put in the hat might go directly into his/her purse without interrupting the performance.

[Uthreth Baelcoressitas]

I definitely don't want to see the roleplaying skills tossed aside to the point where nobody uses them. Perhaps the answer is not in how you use them mechanically for one purpose, but to make them marginally useful in many ways instead. For example, it would be really difficult, I imagine, to program into the system a way in which you could use diplomacy reliably to prevent being attacked or ambushed. However, it would probably be much easier to use diplomacy for settlement management, prices in shops, building (tavern) ownership related actions, resource gathering camps, etc as just bonuses. If enough little bonuses appear in the game from having diplomacy then people will increase their diplomacy skill. In the example of being ambushed, perhaps with a high diplomacy skill comes fame and with that come different types of ambushes. Where someone with a low diplomacy would be robbed by bandits and possibly killed for their possessions, someone with high diplomacy might be killed by NPCs for political motive, or an assassin from a rival businessman could attack them, or maybe the chance of ambushes by intelligent NPCs goes down but because there aren't bandits lying in wait the number of hostile animals (and the chance of encountering them on the road) would go up. Or perhaps a character with a high diplomacy could decide whether they want an NPC to remember them and the length would be related to how much they made their check by. If someone talked to that NPC shortly thereafter, the NPC might mention them and say something like, "Did you see that man in the nobles' clothing? What a presence he had, I felt like I was walking among kings!"

[Being]

Oh I was thinking of a rather more profound sort of intimidation, really. Being the glory hound I am and all.

I envisioned my Druid exaseprated by yet another incursion of goblins or bandits and, having helped dispatch the last few was feeling my alignment drifting toward the good and away from my native True Neutral. So rather than destroy these it would be beneficial to scare the goblins off with a bit of thunder and darkness rather than destroying them, thus turning a good act into a neutral one.

[Imbicatus]

Not very wise long term to rely on dispersing a threat to the forest instead of destroying them. Goblins may scare easily, but they'll be back; and with greater numbers.

[Drakhan Valane]

Or perhaps the wanton slaughter of (humanoid) creatures in the forest is an evil act thus keeping you neutral.

[Keign]

A thought generated by the thread about capture over killing-

Talking your way out of trouble: Whether it's convincing them they've got the wrong guy or promising them riches beyond their wildest dreams, I would like to be able to convince a guard to release me rather than taking me to the authorities.

[Dario]

Keign wrote:

A thought generated by the thread about capture over killing-

Talking your way out of trouble: Whether it's convincing them they've got the wrong guy or promising them riches beyond their wildest dreams, I would like to be able to convince a guard to release me rather than taking me to the authorities.

One thing to keep in mind about social skills (And I'm not intending to criticize you, Keign, you're just a handy example) is that things like this can only work on NPCs. If you give players a skill that allows them to dictate the actions of other PCs like this, it's chaos (and I don't mean the alignment).

[Keign]

I absolutely agree - my intent with this ability would be for it to work exclusively upon Marshals, and other automated city/settlement defenses. Players you would have to negotiate with in a much more real way - or learn how to run fast.

[Dorje Sylas]

EVE with spoofed IFFs, joy. I can just see the total chaos a sub-system like that would add. Even if it was NPC only affecting only.

[LazarX]

Chiassa wrote:

Dario wrote:

Chiassa wrote:

One of the things that appeals to me about the game is the idea of playing a character who isn't combat focused. I really don't want to wait until sometime after release to have social skills become a viable playstyle.

Actually, that's one of the beautiful things about PFO, is that a social character is a viable choice in the total absence of any mechanics. The difference being that without mechanics, it's actually you being social with the human beings behind the other characters. I'd love to see some social skills implemented mechanically to influence NPCs and settlements, but playing a social character as a diplomat, or con artist, or courtesan is going to be an option right out of the gate.

I should have been more clear; it's the mechanical implementation I want to see incorporated with development from the beginning, and not left out of the initial release (as suggested by an earlier poster) in favor of prioritizing combat. Trying to fit later-developed non-combat systems into an established combat-focused release would just reinforce the sense of social skills being an afterthought.

Why do social skills need implementation? Your primary interaction in a sandbox is going to be with other Human Beings. There's really not much you can get out of MOBs save canned responses.

[Richter Bones]

Social skills will be useful for interacting with NPCs. For instance, I want to supervise a mining site. All my workers are going to be NPCs. If I was LE I might have slaves and would require a high amount of intimidation to keep work progressing. If I was CG I might require a high amount of charm to motivate my workers to keep working. If I were LG I might require diplomacy to develop sound contracts to ensure my workers work. And if I was CE, I would probably just steal someone else's work.

You would earn merit badges depending on what your focus was, either crafting, building, mining, or politics and gaining levels in the social skills would help you be better at these non-combat activities.

[Valandur]

LazarX wrote:

Chiassa wrote:

Dario wrote:

Chiassa wrote:

One of the things that appeals to me about the game is the idea of playing a character who isn't combat focused. I really don't want to wait until sometime after release to have social skills become a viable playstyle.

Actually, that's one of the beautiful things about PFO, is that a social character is a viable choice in the total absence of any mechanics. The difference being that without mechanics, it's actually you being social with the human beings behind the other characters. I'd love to see some social skills implemented mechanically to influence NPCs and settlements, but playing a social character as a diplomat, or con artist, or courtesan is going to be an option right out of the gate.

I should have been more clear; it's the mechanical implementation I want to see incorporated with development from the beginning, and not left out of the initial release (as suggested by an earlier poster) in favor of prioritizing combat. Trying to fit later-developed non-combat systems into an established combat-focused release would just reinforce the sense of social skills being an afterthought.

Why do social skills need implementation? Your primary interaction in a sandbox is going to be with other Human Beings. There's really not much you can get out of MOBs save canned responses.

Social skills would play well when running a settlement though. Someone with high skills could get more productivity out of the NPCs that do the work, increase morale etc..

[Luxor]

Isn't this already partially taken into consideration by Reputation?