Goblin Squad Member
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A long dissertation of my personal opinion of the likely success of PFO follows…
I remember when Paizo first announced this project and I was saddened at what I though would be a money pit for a project which would never see the light of day. Why was I so sceptical about this?
I have played in most of the successful MMORPG's and was very active in the past in MMORPG communities, especially in the development side. I participated in closed betas of Ultima Online, Everquest, Asheron's Call and WoW, and provided a considerable amount of development feedback for those games. I have written articles about various aspects of bringing a successful MMORPG to market, and I was a writer for Stratics in the early days of Ultima Online.
Many years ago I left the life of MMORPG's as I had to make way for starting a new career and getting married. Since that time, I have learnt the art of "life balance" and I have been looking for an MMORPG that would be "worthy" of my attention based on my playing style. None have currently been successful at doing this.
There is a already a significant “glut” of MMORPG’s on the market, all which have varying themes, but most of which are really all just the same game play under a different wrapper. The initial information I read about PFO, made me believe it was just going to be another one of these games.
One truism that I feel very strongly about for MMOPRG development is that you cannot focus on trying to design an online game that appeals to a broad segment of the market. I believe it is even more true now with all the competition there is out there. An MMORGP developer needs to select a niche market, yet still add in content that will appeal to others -- but not on a broad-basis.
Everyone has a different preference in MMORPG's, and I feel that ever since Blizzard's introduction of Diablo, the drive for level-based improvement and power gain in both Pen & Paper RPG's and Computer games has greatly impacted the motivations of gamers. MMORPG's like WoW have been very successful at incorporating this grind-based level drive.
"I" however, grow bored quite quickly with level-grind games. I greatly enjoyed Ultima Online's skill-based development character progression. Although I never played EVE much, I also liked how they implemented this aspect as well. Despite being a PFO Kickstarter supporter (mainly for a grab at the pre-painted minis) I have not followed the development of the game much.
I had some time to peruse a few more features of the game today, and I must say I am really getting excited about the future prospects of this game! A lot of the things I liked about Ultima Online are being incorporated in this game -- particularly skill-based development. Although, I still prefer isometric perspective-based games, I believe I could suitably enjoy this first person perspective game, more than I have with others in the past.
From my perusal, it is fairly clear to me that PFO is creating a unique MMORPG that will be distinct from other MMORPG's currently in the marketplace. The real test to an MMORPG is whether it can create enough interest in its player base to give it longevity. Time will tell, but with other skill-based character development MMORPGS still surviving over many years (UO and EVE), I would say that this bodes very well. Add into the equation Paizo's passion for developing top quality gaming products and being in close touch with its customers, and I would say this project stands every chance of being incredibly successful and enjoyable.
Paizo has successfully quelled my scepticism and now I eagerly await to see where the project development journey leads.
To me there are 2 important features (aside from skill-based character development) that would need to be in a MMORPG that is going to suck all the available playing time out of me:
1. Player Housing
One of my favorite aspects of Ultima Online was the concept of player-based housing. You found a piece of land, plopped down a house and called that little piece of the world “yours”. In later development you could then customize your house (in a SIMS like sense) and your little corner of the world even felt more special. Groups and guilds would build towns and communities together. This to me really gave me a sense of personal identity within the game. I understand that PFO will also have player-based housing in the game world and I look forward to see how it will be implemented. (In Ultima Online’s case, a player’s bank was limited to a set number of items they could store, so in order to increase storage space a player would have to build a house, which added a unique incentive to go out there and build one.)
2. Limited Cities
In my opinion, the sure-fire community killer of any MMORPG is to add more landmass to explore (usually in supplements), and give players more mustering points. The more mustering points players have, the less they see of each other and the less active the game appears to the players. I have met a lot of good people in the game, simply by running into them in a city and having a conversation. I’m a big proponent to just keeping the same amount of large cities, and simply add in new content by adding new found dungeons and adventures, and even refurbishing old/stale ones. Of course “Looking for Group” and “Looking for Guild” in-game options and chat channels perhaps detract from helping to foster this aspect of community building, but their convenience has become a widely-used standard now. I look forward to see what sort of efforts that Goblinworks will establish to prevent community splintering.
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Thank you to anyone who continued to read my rambling to this point.
Good post :) I am looking for the same sort of game. I also came from older games that didn't make things as easy as the MMOs being made today often do.
If your interested in a guild, check out the Keepers of the Circle. We would be glad to have you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I must agree with the OP with much about the enjoyment of playing UO. Though one thing I disagree, is to limit the land mass from growth. I say add more all the time, always gives more places to have adventures. It won't be the first time someone or group would move their properties to new locations. There always be movement of people. Sometimes the movement of properties allows for the centres to be further apart, and letting the wild take over, in turn allows for adventures to return to those areas.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Glad you could join us!
I may be suffering a misconception, but I don't think Pathfinder Online is currently to be first person perspective, but third person.
Your point is well taken that it is likely a mistake for an MMORPG to focus too closely on the broadest demographics as WoW has been so successful doing. WoW was a unique 'perfect storm' opportunity impeccably timed with the proliferation of personal computers connected over the internet. The advances in technology permitted the graphical style that became so popular at just the right time, and used the tech so efficiently. That moment is well past, and WoW is already itself. Anyone trying to duplicate their success using their formula will ever be only second-rate now.
Instead, game development needs to take the approach of specialization, or niche marketing as you termed it.
Pathfinder has a unique potential in its source material and broad appeal.
It is the opportunity for a multiplayer fantasy game to finally be done right.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll disagree on limiting the world setting too much. By keeping the game to a single server I'm hoping there really isn't a need to limit the size of the landmass too much. I'd love to see them expand more and more with time.
I only say this because my favorite areas of Golarion are Ustalav and the Shackles, and I'd love to see in game areas to settle similar to those, or even to one day see the entire world of Golarion represented. Though of course that would be a progression of 10-15 years at the very least.
Also have to consider how GW plans to expand the available land. They won't be following Wows example of rolling out a whole new theme park area complete with cities and spawn points, dungeons etc.. They will add land as needed, but that land will be wild unsettled areas that the players have to discover, explore and then go about the process of clearing and securing in order to begin constructing a settlement.
I agree, spawn points like the OP describe hurts social interaction. If the Devs have to concede this point they will likely handle it by allowing players to "discover" areas, and once that's done allow fast travel to those areas. But they include the chances of ambush and other things that travelers will have to deal with so maybe it'll balance out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It does bring up a good point. You spend a lot of time building up a settlement and in a couple years, assuming expansion, your settlement is now in an area that nobody adventures in.
Aren't you just continually negative? No. They're making resources randomly populate so that area noone adventures in will just have rarer resources.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It does bring up a good point. You spend a lot of time building up a settlement and in a couple years, assuming expansion, your settlement is now in an area that nobody adventures in.Aren't you just continually negative? No. They're making resources randomly populate so that area noone adventures in will just have rarer resources.
I don't think I was being negative. Just pointing out that as you gain levels you will venture out further and further from your home settlement and the starting hexes. So eventually, it will be easier to use the settlements that border on the unpopulated hexes instead of returning home.
So I worry that after a year or so the original settlements will become much like starter towns in traditional MMOs. Barren.
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Goblin Squad Member
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These days, first person, third person, top view, etc are part of many genres. It is just a option on how you want to view your environment, whether it is FPS, RTS, RPG, arcade, racing, simulation, sport.
I think the only time GW will add pre-built area if the PF canon for the area already includes such an urban centre, else wilderness up for grabs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It does bring up a good point. You spend a lot of time building up a settlement and in a couple years, assuming expansion, your settlement is now in an area that nobody adventures in.Aren't you just continually negative? No. They're making resources randomly populate so that area noone adventures in will just have rarer resources.I don't think I was being negative. Just pointing out that as you gain levels you will venture out further and further from your home settlement and the starting hexes. So eventually, it will be easier to use the settlements that border on the unpopulated hexes instead of returning home.
So I worry that after a year or so the original settlements will become much like starter towns in traditional MMOs. Barren.
I've certainly seen what you are pointing at, Rafkin, but don't you think that issue may be ameliorated by the very shallow levelling curve? I realize in themepark MMOs you have 70 levels between noobs and capped but in PFO the gap isn't nearly to be so wide.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've certainly seen what you are pointing at, Rafkin, but don't you think that issue may be ameliorated by the very shallow levelling curve? I realize in themepark MMOs you have 70 levels between noobs and capped but in PFO the gap isn't nearly to be so wide.It does bring up a good point. You spend a lot of time building up a settlement and in a couple years, assuming expansion, your settlement is now in an area that nobody adventures in.Aren't you just continually negative? No. They're making resources randomly populate so that area noone adventures in will just have rarer resources.I don't think I was being negative. Just pointing out that as you gain levels you will venture out further and further from your home settlement and the starting hexes. So eventually, it will be easier to use the settlements that border on the unpopulated hexes instead of returning home.
So I worry that after a year or so the original settlements will become much like starter towns in traditional MMOs. Barren.
That's true for PvE content but those higher level people may not need or be interested in the common resource nodes so their exploring, harvesting, adventuring is going to take place near unpopulated wilderness hexes where the rare resources are.
So why would they transport those goods back to the more central settlements when border settlements are closer and most of your customers for the produced end goods are there?
Now if they locate winderness hexes throughout the map and not just on the edges maybe this won't be an issue but I would think eventual expansion is going to have to occur from the edges of the current map.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Rafkin, there will almost certainly be "pure Crafters" who stay in very civilized areas and pay other players to bring them high-end resources.
Probably. Relocating to settlements closer to the rare resources and closer to their customers seems like it would cut a lot of overhead.
@Rafkin, there will almost certainly be "pure Crafters" who stay in very civilized areas and pay other players to bring them high-end resources.Probably. Relocating to settlements closer to the rare resources and closer to their customers seems like it would cut a lot of overhead.
But you have to consider that if they follow the model they mentioned, even "noob" resources will be needed to craft higher level things. Unlike other games where once you level past copper, you never need it again.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Given how EVE-Online has evolved, there will always be high population in "safe" zones around trade hubs. Unlike theme park games where new areas are unchangeable, sandbox PvP can be unstable. Unless you're part of or allied to a partially Player driven settlement group you're unlikely to go wander off and live in the area they open. Even people who are allied don't stay in those areas permanently because at some point they have to come back to the stable trade hubs to conduct business.
Trust me, if PFO ends up with a Player kingdom economy similar to EVEs (but with less encouraged griefing) you don't have to worry about the main hubs becoming empty as new areas open. Partly because those "new" areas will actually be slightly unstable due to wars between forts and player run city states. So expect those areas to be in flux.
I think the Alignment system, crack down on griefing from the get go, and a generally less dark meta will help build the community better then EVE does. Especially when anyone can be a griefing spy mule. *rage face*
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Goblin Squad Member
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The reason people generally abandon old haunts is to go to new haunts with new content. Given the nature of PFO, I would expect that like uo, people won't be going to just one spot and older spots will still be just as popular, especially given the randomised and dynamic nature.
Especially if everyone can't just instantly travel to their hub of choice like you can in uo. If they keep updating it, you'd expect older areas to be more developed and have more/better services, unless all your crafters move to new areas.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's no reason to believe at this time that the rarer resources won't be spawning in starting areas as well. You just wouldn't have the skill to harvest them yet.I believe they have stated the rarer resources would be in unpopulated wilderness hexes.
Actually they said those resources would probably be biased towards unpopulated areas, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't rarely show up in populated ones. It was covered Here.
@Psyblade - The distribution of materials is likely to be randomized and to move around. In other words, when you mine out a vein of mithril, a new vein will spawn elsewhere in the world.
I would not be surprised if we built in a bias for exotic materials tending to spawn in empty hexes...
With the following one of the more amusing highlights of the thread...
I can just imagine a very rare mithril spawn somewhere near a town and the anarchy that follows as you have a "mithril rush" as everyone goes after the "safer" resources. (white hitting eachother with their pick axes)
@Jameow - me too. <evil grin>