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In many of the gods of Golarion in the wiki it suggests they only have shrines. Some go into further detail saying the shrine is in a building. What's the difference?
1. does a shrine get a cleric; does a church?
2. does the deity appear the same all the time? In other words, is Erastil always Erastil, or can there be a church of Erastil, Green Man, and E-Ra; the Evergreen Living, all meaning Erastil, w/in a few blocks of one another?
World building is hard...
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1.) A shrine is more like a small altar with maybe a statue of a representation of that god and his holy symbol, and not much else (maybe scriptures inscribed on the walls or something).
A church is large enough that groups of people can gather in worship as a congregation.
2.) I dunno. Erastil is probably Erastil wherever you are, just by a different name in different cultures. So if you had a "Church of the Green Man" they would still be considered a part of the main Church of Erastil.
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A shrine is a small place where people leave offerings and pray basically whenever they feel like it.
A church is a large building where congregations meet to worship communally.
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In many of the gods of Golarion in the wiki it suggests they only have shrines. Some go into further detail saying the shrine is in a building. What's the difference?
1. does a shrine get a cleric; does a church?
2. does the deity appear the same all the time? In other words, is Erastil always Erastil, or can there be a church of Erastil, Green Man, and E-Ra; the Evergreen Living, all meaning Erastil, w/in a few blocks of one another?
World building is hard...
The following is imo, not carved in stone and relates to my own (non-Golarion) setting and thoughts on the topic. Ymmv as may Golarion canon.
A shrine is often associated with the grave or relics of a holy person. A shrine may be in a building, or not or have natural and man made features assciated with it. I.e. "the Shrine of St. Benedict where his +5 Holy Avenger reposes". Or his right hand. Or all of him. Whatever, might be his tomb, a roadside shrine a small building in a town, a part of a cathedral in a large city, etc. :) A shrine is often a place of contemplation or pilgrimage. It may be the site of periodic religious rites but is often not a regular place of worship (i.e. the festival of St. Benedict, the Sword Saint is celebrated annually on...) although if located inside a church / temple it may be...
A church / temple is a place of regular worship which may (or may not) have any holy relics in it. In short, a church may have shrines in it, but doesn't have to.
A deity is free to appear to different people in different guises or have different names / aspects in different lands (in my game). Being a god has to have some perks :D Several gods in my game have multiple religions associated with them for that matter...
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Shrines aren't small "places" so much as they are "things" or "collections of things". A typical shrine might be a statuette of a god or goddess on a pedestal with incense burning in front of it. Shrines can be anywhere, in buildings, alongside a road, inside a church, etc.
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Well for example: In the catholic religion, you can go into a church or cathedral (a big church) and there will be shrines within the church. You might see one where you can walk up to a little alcove and light candles, or kneel in front of a statue of mary and pray, those would be shrines, within the church.
The church is specifically a meeting house your the multitude to meet, worship, and conduct the business of the religion/patron deity.
A shrine is small and could be portable, or could be like a gazebo/pergola. It's not necessarily "staffed" although it could have an attending clergy man who erected it, but it's not necessary.
Basically, in size/expense from lowest to highest: Shrine, Church, Cathedral, Temple.
In the monotheistic faiths, large buildings were erected with shrines to multiple gods in the same structure, the Parthenon was one.
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A Shrine of say a God of Travel would simply be an Alter on the Side of the road in a small building, probably tended by an aging Cleric/Adept of the Faith, where travelers can pray for safe travel.
A Church would be more of a Temple. A large structure or place where people gather to worship and come to commune with the God.
A Holy Place would be a place where a major event occured for the faith. Like a Battlefield where many Soldiers of Asmodeus fell at the hands of The Inheritor's Crusaders and is Hallowed/Unhallowed Ground depending on who won the day.
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So is there a settlement-size-to-type-of-holy-site ratio out there? If I'm planning a large town, should it have multiple deity shrines in a church/temple, or a bunch of cathedrals, or a couple random shrines?
Also I've used shrines in the past like R Chance; some local deity or saint that only gets love a couple times a year. In that instance, would they have a regular clergy in town/living nearby, or would it be expected that the pilgrims/lay people know their own service so the shrine offers no cleric spells to the party?
I'll start a different thread for multi-faced deities since that is a different conversation.
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I'd say it depends more on the deity than on the settlement. I would imagine a nature/hunting deity to have a more indiviualistic religion, and so be more into a simple shrine, possibly tended by the local druid, possibly not even that.
A deity of law and order on the other hand I'd envision being worshipped communally in a church, with a clear program of what prayers/rites are performed when, and an equally clear structure of clergy attending.
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Well in kingmaker there is no church option per se there's shrines, temples, and cathedrals.
Assuming church = temple, the difference is size, staff, cost, and overall capability.
A shrine is reletively cheap (10BP which roughly translates between 20-40k gold) and produces 1 minor magic item a month.
A temple is an investment (~32BP) takes more squares in a city district and produces 1 medium item and two minbor items...
To me the clear difference is scale.
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Church vs Temple is an interesting etymological conversation.
"Church" is more or less a term that comes from the early Christian culture and originally was a synonym for a congregation of the faithful. "Temple" was a building or structure where people went to practice, reaffirm or demonstrate their faith.
In other words, "church" was what happened at a "temple". Of course one reason for the terminology is that very early Christians didn't HAVE temples, because Christianity was outlawed. So they had "church" at the houses of the faithful, in parks, or in public places where the activity was hidden or disguised.
Once Christianity went mainstream, Christian "temples" started being built. But the phrase "going to church" had become so common, that the word "temple" never really got any traction since the activity and the place it happened became conflated. Eventually "church" mostly lost it's original meaning of "congregating" and became a description of the "temple."
Church vs Temple is an interesting etymological conversation.
"Church" is more or less a term that comes from the early Christian culture and originally was a synonym for a congregation of the faithful. "Temple" was a building or structure where people went to practice, reaffirm or demonstrate their faith.
In other words, "church" was what happened at a "temple". Of course one reason for the terminology is that very early Christians didn't HAVE temples, because Christianity was outlawed. So they had "church" at the houses of the faithful, in parks, or in public places where the activity was hidden or disguised.
Once Christianity went mainstream, Christian "temples" started being built. But the phrase "going to church" had become so common, that the word "temple" never really got any traction since the activity and the place it happened became conflated. Eventually "church" mostly lost it's original meaning of "congregating" and became a description of the "temple."
Temple is a place and a term before christianity.
Jesus visited a Temple when he was 12.
Solomon's Temple is the most famous in Judaism/Christianity
Both existed before the christian faith.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Temple is a place and a term before christianity.Jesus visited a Temple when he was 12.
Solomon's Temple is the most famous in Judaism/Christianity
Both existed before the christian faith.
I don't think he was claiming the word 'temple' as Christian, merely attempting to explain how the meaning of that word was intermingled with the newer word 'church'.
As far as the OP, I tend to let the lawfulness of the faith decide the type of holy sites.
In my Golarion...
You will *always* find a temple of Iomedae with an attendant and a structure with a roof. You can tell how long a priest has been at a particular temple by their rank.
Conversely, you will rarely find a full on temple to Desna. I think the only one I've detailed so far is the one in the Ascendant Court in Absalom, and the attendants vary from acolytes to powerful clerics, changing at random. Most of Desna's sites are little roadside shrines littered throughout the world, and I roll percentile dice whenever the party approaches one to see what support they might find.
Gorum's holy places are not structures at all, they are elaborate banners on great wooden stakes, laden with trinkets of previous victories and carried into battle.
Zon-Kuthon has secret, dark torture chambers where rites are performed.
In the desert or equatorial regions, temples of Sarenrae tend to be grand affairs, but in colder, darker regions of the world they tend to be small, sunlit altars.
Erastil tends to have small living quarters for the priest's family near the center of town, but most of the rites are performed in the square itself.
Abadar's temples double as banks and trading halls, and are typically made with the best materials and tend to be showy.
Nethys' temples are (or are in) libraries and universities, where arcane knowledge is shared freely.
Asmodeous' temples also tend to have extensive libraries, but they are very strictly organized by access levels and obfuscated by a byzantine card catalog. In Cheliax, most buildings have a shrine to Asmodeous in the entryway.
Temples of Pharasma are typically on the edge of town, between the citizens and the graveyard.
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Church vs Temple is an interesting etymological conversation.
"Church" is more or less a term that comes from the early Christian culture and originally was a synonym for a congregation of the faithful. "Temple" was a building or structure where people went to practice, reaffirm or demonstrate their faith.
In other words, "church" was what happened at a "temple". Of course one reason for the terminology is that very early Christians didn't HAVE temples, because Christianity was outlawed. So they had "church" at the houses of the faithful, in parks, or in public places where the activity was hidden or disguised.
Once Christianity went mainstream, Christian "temples" started being built. But the phrase "going to church" had become so common, that the word "temple" never really got any traction since the activity and the place it happened became conflated. Eventually "church" mostly lost it's original meaning of "congregating" and became a description of the "temple."
Temple is a place and a term before christianity.
Jesus visited a Temple when he was 12.
Solomon's Temple is the most famous in Judaism/Christianity
Both existed before the christian faith.
Wow, really? That's what you got from my message? That I was claiming that "temple" was a Christian word, when I clearly said that "temples" existed before Christianity and that Christians didn't even HAVE temples because their religion was outlawed?
Seriously?
Interwebz...
A shrine is dedicated to a specific saint/deity/etc. It is relatively small and can be located in a church, temple, etc. A shrine to Arazni in a church of Aroden (before the whole "dead thing") would be a good exaample of that.
A shrine often has a relic or atifact of the being venerated there.
BTW, you want world building tips, just out yesterday: Kobold Guide to World Building.
The first (of three) Game guides they did should be required reading for any RPG designer.
Ok, so some kind of religious structure can be found virtually anywhere; what may or may not be missing would be the attendant clergy and their ability to aid the party in any significant way.
Ex: a Large Town (pop 3000, 3 qualities: Insular, Academic, Racially Intollerant - Dwarves) of humans, elves and half-elves is built nestled in the wooded foothills of a mountain. The rocky cliffs nearby are speckled with streams cascading in a series of brilliant waterfalls and the town itself partially extends down the hillsides and out, into the lake. Here there might be a single church, known as the Church of the Flaming Blade; there are priests and clergy of Iomedae, a paladin's order of the same goddess centered around the Shrine of Veldreth (the holy knight with the flaming blade mentioned in the name of the church), but in the apses of the facility there are also shrines to Saranrae (a sunlit altar on the north-facing porch of the building) and a shrine to Pharasma (a collondae of pillars and arches wound with black rose vines and looking through the churchyard to the cemetery beyond).
Now as I said, there's clergy of Iomedae. The Order of the Flaming Blade has a chapter house on the grounds but keep to themselves. The shrine of Saranrae is mostly just a nod to the goddess' aspect of healing and is sought out by gypsies passing through the town. The Pharasmin, being a bit more disciplined but a minor force in the community, maintain a caretaker's house in the churchyard for a priest and his family; they hold burial services, work w/lay memebers to tend the grounds and the roses, etc.
In the meantime, an older religion of Gozreh from the wooded island in the lake now occupied by the town has survived. A cave at the shore, obscured by willows, holds a pile of stones and laurel wreaths laid here as offerings by woodsfolk, lake fishers or the like. A druid order, on the far side of the woods, gathers the faithful here on high holy days but otherwise remains reclusive.
Does this sound like too much, too little or just right, having 4 major deities AND a paladin order in one Large Town sized settlement?
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You forgot that just about every bar in Golarion has a small shrine to Cayden Cailean somewhere in it, even if the bartender who set it up isn't a devout follower.
Conceptually, I like your ideas, but I'm not sure if that might be too much for a town that size. For some place that small, I would have thought just one major religious presence in town, plus the druidic order outside in the wilderness. But having additional shrines out of respect for other gods who don't have their own churches in town, and are generally accepted by the followers of the town's major religion, seems quite appropriate.
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I think that's a good description for what religions might be there. A dominant religion (Iomedae) has a major presence, plus a sect with a devoted shrine (the paladins). The lip-service to the goddess of healing was put there out of complaints by travelers or after a real bad wave of disease lifted, and they just gave the creepy grave digger a few pillars to plant a rose bush at so that they didn't have to deal with him mumbling in some "not celestial" language every midnight in their sanctum. The holdouts, likely elves who predated the city, still pay their respects to Gozreh at a little cave shrine.
Seems perfectly OK for a large town of diverse races.
EDIT: Also a good thing to remember is that in a polytheistic society, most lay folk will pay at least basic lip-service to more than one god.
Ok, so how about this as a guideline: in a settlement statblock there are a no of qualities, based on size. Perhaps one major religious facility or 2 minor ones per quality?
Church vs Temple is an interesting etymological conversation.
"Church" is more or less a term that comes from the early Christian culture and originally was a synonym for a congregation of the faithful. "Temple" was a building or structure where people went to practice, reaffirm or demonstrate their faith.
In other words, "church" was what happened at a "temple". Of course one reason for the terminology is that very early Christians didn't HAVE temples, because Christianity was outlawed. So they had "church" at the houses of the faithful, in parks, or in public places where the activity was hidden or disguised.
Once Christianity went mainstream, Christian "temples" started being built. But the phrase "going to church" had become so common, that the word "temple" never really got any traction since the activity and the place it happened became conflated. Eventually "church" mostly lost it's original meaning of "congregating" and became a description of the "temple."
Temple is a place and a term before christianity.
Jesus visited a Temple when he was 12.
Solomon's Temple is the most famous in Judaism/Christianity
Both existed before the christian faith.
Wow, really? That's what you got from my message? That I was claiming that "temple" was a Christian word, when I clearly said that "temples" existed before Christianity and that Christians didn't even HAVE temples because their religion was outlawed?
Seriously?
Interwebz...
no im saying there was a difference between a church and a temple BEFORE christianity. Temple has a different higher purpose than "church" or meeting house. People would/could meet for church without using a temple... they were often far away for many, and they couldnt just simply worship at a temple as a matter of commonplace.
So Temple was separate from church or similars prior to that.
Ok, so how about this as a guideline: in a settlement statblock there are a no of qualities, based on size. Perhaps one major religious facility or 2 minor ones per quality?
I don't think you need a guideline just make up whatever you want.
Shrine/church/temple/cathedral could be used interchangeably, unless you are worried about a "gazebo problem"
but even if you, yourself define 'shrine' as a small little altar on the side of the road, and Temple as a big grandiose multi layered building, your players might not understand which is which based on a single word.
You see a "shrine"
"Ok me and my men take cover from the storm in it"
o.0
so any one of the words will need further description...
I could see a Cathedral surrounded by a Hamlet or such.
It is hard to find but you might look up the Grey Cathedral.
It rivals some of the Vatican Structures in size even today with most of it being in ruins. But it was only surrounded by a Small Village at best.
So is there a settlement-size-to-type-of-holy-site ratio out there? If I'm planning a large town, should it have multiple deity shrines in a church/temple, or a bunch of cathedrals, or a couple random shrines?Also I've used shrines in the past like R Chance; some local deity or saint that only gets love a couple times a year. In that instance, would they have a regular clergy in town/living nearby, or would it be expected that the pilgrims/lay people know their own service so the shrine offers no cleric spells to the party?
I'll start a different thread for multi-faced deities since that is a different conversation.
In my game it depends on the shrines location / popularity; some (especially in remote areas) are untended with visitors expected to take care of it when they are there. Some shrines have a lay attendant (a deacon in my game) who takes care of them (the physical shrine). Some are visited by wandering clergy (friars) who take care of them and move on. Others (especially if located in a town / city are visited on a frequent basis by lay members of the church and / or clergy. In my game shrines may (it's not mandatory or even common) have a magical effect (i.e. cure light wounds once per day, or bless once per day (or week or month), etc.). No clergy required. It depends on the deity / saint the shrine is dedicated to as to the effect. The recipient is expected to leave an offering of course for the shrines maintenance and upkeep :)
I could see a Cathedral surrounded by a Hamlet or such.
It is hard to find but you might look up the Grey Cathedral.
It rivals some of the Vatican Structures in size even today with most of it being in ruins. But it was only surrounded by a Small Village at best.
Whats the grey cathedral?
When ever I hear cathedral, I expect it to be packed with vampires and hunchbacks,
It was a Large Cathedral like structure in Scotland/England that was besieged by the Romans. During WWII it was damaged even further and has been left since then to decay.
It served as the local Brewery for a long time for that region of the Land.
& it apparently does have a Cellar filled with Bats...
all hail the god of booze!
Well dispite its name it was more of a Western Monastery...
But yeah seems fitting for say The Lucky Drunk and maybe Torag...
Great now I need to convert it and its surrounding for my Setting.
Sometimes I hate you Pendagast. Almost as much as my current loathing for Rangers.
you're the one who decided to make 13 rangers at once.
It is 12 and yes I did. Though it is more of figuring out how to format the Stat Blocks...
excel
I have a Stat Block Template for Word. Quite a Few in fact...
It is more of figuring out what should go where.
Bump-dot
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Bump-dot
Nerd. ;P
:D
:D
Not gonna lie... Your Avatar seems to serious for your personality...
Mine I can at least explain as a Family Guy-style Stormtrooper Hellknight. But yours... Come On!
Heh... has to do with the fact that I'm goofy and chose my avatar strictly for the fur. Also because of the whole "lion blade" thing, but mostly for the fur.
(My normal avatar isn't available on these boards - that of Hashmalum from FFT, which is also serious, but at least it's animalish).
Nice... I could never tell if it was Fur or Feathers...
And you haven't seen goofy until you have gotten me when I am Sleep Deprived/Over-Rested.
Same here!
(Which I'm going to be today; ah, my poor, poor toddler...)
Oh so sorry...
Eh, such is life, sir, such is life. We're cool.
Speaking of... one major derail via dotting later...
TOTALLY TOPICAL:
Technically, a "church" as used in the New Testement is the corporate body of believers (the "ecclesia"* or "called out" or "gathering") in a certain religion (specifically Christianity) while a "shrine" is a small place set aside to contain an image or relic, or a collection of images or relics, to promote veneration of a particular person, place, or event. A shrine is usually not a building.
What most people mean when the use the word "Church", however, is the building that said body of believers gathers within to worship. As I believe was mentioned upthread, the Roman church has a specific usage of words to describe specific types of buildings, including a chapel (a room set aside for corporate worship), a church (a building whose majority is dedicated to corporate worship), a cathedral (a big cruciform church with a bishop residing), a basilica (a big church given specific ceremonial rites and stuff by the pope), and, well, meh, why don't I just link.
* ()**
** EDIT: ***
*** EDIT:
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@ the derailing duo: my avatar looks EXACTLY like me in real life, save that my clothes are more now. My wife even said so.
Re: churches - I know basically what they are in the really real world, but my concern was whether or not there was any mechanical distinction in PF between them. For example if shrines are meant to be untended where churches are meant to have spell-wielding clergy; or if there was a specific tie-in to settlement size or something.
As for doing it by GM fiat: I have been doing this up til now and my style seems very...boring. I guess that's another reason for the thread; to make sure I wasn't missing something. Normally I have a church, there's a god, there's a cleric; if there's a plot point there the place might have an allied god's shrine or something.
Heh: my avatar... doesn't look like me at all. If the hair was dark and wavier, it had glasses and pimples it would kind of look like my mid to late teens. It does not look anything like me now, however.
R.A.W. There is no distinction between a Shrine, Temple/Church, or Cathedral.
& The Avatar Closest to my RL appearance is of a Female Dwarf... Though I don't think it is on the Forum anymore...
A rule I remember back in 3x (and now that I think of it, it might've been a guy's house rule) was that churches were organized according to domains. I just commented on this in another thread sort of. For example a church of Nethys with Knowledge and Destruction might be completely different than one of Protection and Magic.
Is that a thing, or is that one possible way of differing clerical orders from one another?
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I don't know that it would be considered a hard and fast rule, but that certainly seems to be a viable method of running them. Makes for a richer roleplay environment. One character's opinion of the church of Nethys might differ greatly from another's depending on which branch they were used to dealing with.