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I'm thinking of running a campaign where magic items are nigh unheard of and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on how much to adjust the encounter levels by. I plan on starting at 1st level and going as high as I can.
I'm going to avoid incorporeal creatures where magic weapons would be a necessity. DR will stay and the party will have to rely on high damaage, spells & class features to bypass it. Is there anything else I need to consider that removing magic items will cause a problem with?
Basically you have to be careful every time you use a non-humanoid enemy. AC simply stops advancing at a certain point without magic items, and monsters that hit hard, or have alot of attacks will be particularly deadly. Past say 8th level, the 'tank' is no longer an option as a character. Your frontliners will get beat up, ALOT.
That said another thing to worry about with non-humanoids is their saves, and the dcs of their effects and abilities. Without stat boosting items, PC dcs will be lower, and thus keep an eye on how high non-humanoid saves are of a given monster vs how high the saves are of your pc's abilities. Same goes for the save dcs of enemy effects. Without cloaks of resistance, you will have a higher chance of failure, and poor saves cant be covered for like you can with a cloak.
There isnt going to be a straight number to adjust encounters by, no magic items messes with the whole of the assumed math the game relies on. You will have to look at it encounter by encounter and be aware of what your party is capable of.
As an aside is your intent to have a low powered game or do you simply not like the prevalence of magic items? If its the latter have you considered replacing the bonuses you can get from magic items with inherent abilities? There are a number of such systems floating around in home brew including my own if you are interested.
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It's tricky to translate lack of magic items to a straight EL change, because it becomes much more severe as levels go up.
Could you estimate it? Such as levels 1-5 adjust 1, levels 6-8 adjust 2, etc. ?
As an aside is your intent to have a low powered game or do you simply not like the prevalence of magic items? If its the latter have you considered replacing the bonuses you can get from magic items with inherent abilities? There are a number of such systems floating around in home brew including my own if you are interested.
A bit of both. I've seen the many varied suggestions for inherent bonuses and I'm iffy on them. Plus everyone seem to have a different opinion on what is needed. I was hoping to circumvent the issue by doing the reverse (sort of).
If the major issue is a numbers/bonuses one, I would think it should be possible to adjust ELs to fix the problem. Plus, I do plan on including SOME magic items, just they'd be extremely rare. Potions and scrolls would still be ok, but everything else would be a once an adventure kind of reward. I realize I'm gonna have to do some fine tuning, based on my party's capabilities, but I was hoping for at least a baseline to start from.
The thing is differing styles of play will suffer differently. For example, a summoning based character wouldn't really suffer that much, whereas, something like a melee beatstick type character will have very serious problems.
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By that logic, the Summoner is a superior class. Also, that then leads to the issue that granting the same inherent bonuses to all characters doesn't work because different classes would spend the money in different manners.
Look at like this, you've got character A and character B.
If; A + WBL = B + WBL
then; A - WBL = B - WBL
Or at least that should be true. If not, than there is a serious flaw in the magic item rules. Granted different classes will suffer in different ways from not having the standard WBL, but it should still be a basically equal amount of suffering.
To do inherent bonuses, you need variable options so each class could take the benefit it needs.
By that logic, the Summoner is a superior class. Also, that then leads to the issue that granting the same inherent bonuses to all characters doesn't work because different classes would spend the money in different manners.
Look at like this, you've got character A and character B.
If; A + WBL = B + WBL
then; A - WBL = B - WBLOr at least that should be true. If not, than there is a serious flaw in the magic item rules. Granted different classes will suffer in different ways from not having the standard WBL, but it should still be a basically equal amount of suffering.
The problem is its not an equal amount of suffering and its not suffering in the same ways or at the same times. There is no guideline even a rough one that can be given about how much to adjust encounters because literally each monster is going to be in a different place and the affects will be different. Your equation is flawed because there are about 30 values for A, WBL and B. They dont all provide the same amount for different characters or against different monster.
To do inherent bonuses, you need variable options so each class could take the benefit it needs.
What I recommend is something like my system where players can CHOOSE inherent bonuses kind of like feats, thus it would vary the same way purchasing magic items does. I can link you if you are interested, again, I really think its a MUCH better way to go then trying to adjust encounters after the fact unless you want to look at each and every monster you use and check the math. I LIKE the math in this game and i dont want to do that.
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The problem is its not an equal amount of suffering and its not suffering in the same ways or at the same times. There is no guideline even a rough one that can be given about how much to adjust encounters because literally each monster is going to be in a different place and the affects will be different. Your equation is flawed because there are about 30 values for A, WBL and B. They dont all provide the same amount for different characters or against different monster.
The assumption is that every class is equal*, so any 7th level character is on the same footing (generally) as any other 7th level character. (not taking into acct poor/optimized builds). And WBL is the same for every character, so Idk how it can have different values.
What I recommend is something like my system where players can CHOOSE inherent bonuses kind of like feats, thus it would vary the same way purchasing magic items does. I can link you if you are interested
Please do.
So many DM’s ask this question.
Dms- ask yourself- why are there so few threads of players looking for low magic campaigns?
Look, you’re trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Try Iron Heroes or other similar games. Pathfinder is well balanced as it is.
Now, yes, I know, many DM’s don’t like the feeling they get of having lost control in a game with lots of magic. Where a clever trap can just be Tported around, etc.
Now, one thing you can do is get rid of “ye Olde magic Shoppe”, and just hand out cool magic items, esp those designed to offset tier balance issues and also increase player fun.
And there is no doubt at all that full spellcasters rule over martial types at the higher levels.
It be easier to make magic items a fairly common, every day option (even for the well off everyman, like in the Eberron campaign setting) in your setting and then say their are a few artifacts that are almost unheard of. That way you maintain balance, your players have infinitely more options for fun available to them, and you still get the "there's something better" vibe for your campaign.
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So many DM’s ask this question.
Dms- ask yourself- why are there so few threads of players looking for low magic campaigns?
Look, you’re trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Try Iron Heroes or other similar games. Pathfinder is well balanced as it is.
Now, yes, I know, many DM’s don’t like the feeling they get of having lost control in a game with lots of magic. Where a clever trap can just be Tported around, etc.
Now, one thing you can do is get rid of “ye Olde magic Shoppe”, and just hand out cool magic items, esp those designed to offset tier balance issues and also increase player fun.
You don't know anything about me or my gaming group, don't make assumptions about it. I actually have owned IH, but it has too many issues (IMHO) to begin fixing it. Please don't come into my thread only to tell me not to do what I'm looking to do. It's unhelpful at the least and a little insulting too.
And there is no doubt at all that full spellcasters rule over martial types at the higher levels.
Given that I myself have doubt, this is just an outright falsehood. Maybe YOU don't have any doubt, I do. Lets not turn this into another of the millions of thread concerning that topic.
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It be easier to make magic items a fairly common, every day option (even for the well off everyman, like in the Eberron campaign setting) in your setting and then say their are a few artifacts that are almost unheard of. That way you maintain balance, your players have infinitely more options for fun available to them, and you still get the "there's something better" vibe for your campaign.
Easier maybe, but I don't agree that it garners the same results.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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To the OP:
I don't think you'll find a formula. You'll have to assess your players' abilities and equipment when designing your encounters on a case by case basis.
I've run low magic campaigns, and I typically throw EL/CR out the window when designing encounters.
I recommend the following options:
* Use slow progression. Fights will be more challenging, and you'll encounter fewer monsters with DRs and special attacks at levels below 6. It also provides more time for your players to develop tactics for handling your encounters.
* Provide alternative measures for overcoming DR/Magic. For example, in my low magic campaigns, silver weapons can bypass DR/Magic.
* Customize the magic items you place in your encounters. Make sure your players have what they need to continue on. I typically ask my players for one or two items they want their characters to have before we start the campaign, then I strategically place them as treasure as they advance in levels. This also helps me plan encounters since I can easily track the magic present in the party at any given time.
* Make Special and Alchemical Items easier to come by. These items, in essence, become the equivalent of magic items for the PCs. Being able to find Mithral Armor or Alchemical Silver weapons in most towns softens the blow of low magic campaigns. You may also consider creating additional items that mirror some of the more common magic items.
* When planning encounters, thoroughly review the creatures you wish to use and make sure they are challenging, but defeatable. If the party doesn't have the tools to defeat the creature, consider a different option.
* Focus more on plot points, intrigue, and traps at lower levels.
* Combat opponents should be mundane races (human, dwarf, elf, etc.) with character levels - especially at low levels. If magic is hard to come by, chance are the PCs opponents will more likely be mundane, rather than fantastic. Going this route also helps overcome some instances of DR concerns, and special attacks. It also makes the times the party DOES face a creature (such as an Undead) more special.
Hope this helps! I've always had great success with low magic campaigns, even in Pathfinder. As long as you pay attention to your PCs' abilities and your players' tactics during encounter design, you should be fine.
The problem is its not an equal amount of suffering and its not suffering in the same ways or at the same times. There is no guideline even a rough one that can be given about how much to adjust encounters because literally each monster is going to be in a different place and the affects will be different. Your equation is flawed because there are about 30 values for A, WBL and B. They dont all provide the same amount for different characters or against different monster.
The assumption is that every class is equal*, so any 7th level character is on the same footing (generally) as any other 7th level character. (not taking into acct poor/optimized builds). And WBL is the same for every character, so Idk how it can have different values.
WBL is equal, but it doesnt hit characters the same, or at the same levels. You do understand that not all classes are equal, not all characters of the same class are equal and they will be affected in drastically different ways by a lack of wealth right? Your assumption is false. Very Very false.
For instance, at low levels and even mid, wealth in the form of permanent magic items has almost no affect on say a sorceror's spells. Untill he can afford rods, the only thing he would miss is a stat booster. A fighter on the other hand would be missing magic armor, magis weapons, stat boosters, and protective items. The sorceror doesnt take a big hit on how effective he can be untill later levels. The Fighter takes significant hits on what he is trying to do very early on.
Another example. A druid who is focused on wild shape is affected very little by a loss of wealth by level. Most gear disappears when he wildships. He loses some things like rings and amulets that give ac bonuses and stat boosts, but he doesnt miss out the way a straight martial character does.
The fact is, though everyone hurts, how much they hurt is very very different. Casters mostly hurt in the form of longevity (missing those rods and wands and such) untill high levels where they are behind the curve. Martial characters miss out on being able to do the things they do. Everyone hurts defensively (magic is the only way acs go up past a certain point, and saves suffer too) but the guy in the front suffers more because of this then the little guy in the back throwing fire.
Its in 2 parts, one is whats called heroic distinctions (there is a modified version of it that comes later in the thread) and the other is using a 3rd party product by super genius games. Some of those archetypes are available on d20pfsrd if you want to check that out.What I recommend is something like my system where players can CHOOSE inherent bonuses kind of like feats, thus it would vary the same way purchasing magic items does. I can link you if you are interestedPlease do.
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Lol. DrDeth didn't say anything about you or your gaming group. He made a comment on an observation that many of us have seen. A lot of people want a low magic game but it's hard to pull off in the pathfinder setting without upsetting balance.
I took his use of "you" to be directed at me, perhaps I misunderstood.
Also read the terms of use rules on the board. This thread does not belong to you. And if you can't handle criticism then don't post on public forums.
Again, sorry perhaps my word choice was poor. Criticism is fine, but shooting down an idea out of hand is just unhelpful. If he had presented why he felt the idea wouldn't work, that's criticism, all he said was don't do it. That isn't criticism.
Here, let me revise my comment; "I see what you are saying, but I still wish to attempt this endeavor. If you do not have anything to further to aid in my attempts, I would appreciate if you directed your time elsewhere."
Btw, where are the terms of use rules? I can't find them.
Edit: you should also spend time reading those disparity threads. There's generally no high end content because the game breaks when the wizard stops time.
I have and I understand the argument, but IMHO a lot of issue comes with problem players and DMs who allow anything as long as it fits the RAW. As I already said, martial/caster disparity has never been an issue in my games, so I don't take it into consideration.
You do understand that not all classes are equal, not all characters of the same class are equal and they will be affected in drastically different ways by a lack of wealth right? Your assumption is false. Very Very false.
Then this is the crux of my problem making my idea work. And I would say that the books imply equality between classes, so it's Pathfinder's assumption, not mine.
Thanks for the link, I'll look those over.
It be easier to make magic items a fairly common, every day option (even for the well off everyman, like in the Eberron campaign setting) in your setting and then say their are a few artifacts that are almost unheard of. That way you maintain balance, your players have infinitely more options for fun available to them, and you still get the "there's something better" vibe for your campaign.Easier maybe, but I don't agree that it garners the same results.
If magic is everywhere, it's hardly magical anymore. It's exactly the same concept, just a different extreme.
I am doing something like this for one of my campaign outlines. I recommend using mostly Humanoids as the enemies. When determining APL treat every player as Character Level minus 1-3 depending on what you do.
Mine consumables like Potions and Wands are readily available. Magic Swords and such are rare and wondrous when found.
Search for the Middle Earth Adventures thread. Pendagast and Myself discussed a similar campaign basis.
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Is it story line you want? or do you want your characters to fearful of everything? Meaning you want them under powered and thus cautious sort of like a 1st level character?
If you just want a low level story line then give them more bonuses to the stats...basically making up for the lack of magic. You might also have to bump a few other things like AC.. Games like Conan from Mongoose Publishing deal with this. More state bumps, I believe it is +1 to two stats every 3 levels or something like that. It is basically a very low magic setting, Magic Items are special and have specific purpose...not every day things. And Magic is difficult to use and even deadly to the caster.
Otherwise let be under powered, people act differently when they think there going to get eaten around every corner. Games like All Flesh Must Be Eaten are great. But if you play stupid, like thinking you are going to wade through the zombies like Left4Dead you quickly end up bolstering the zombie horde. Players think differently, act differently and there is even more suspense in my opinion with constant fear of death.
Either way will work it depends on the mood you want in your game and the play style you are trying to achieve. But remember if you leave them under powered you can expect them to run head first in the horde...unless they are planning on dying. But I would look at other settings and systems to give you ideas...
Simply making the enemies all Humanoids or things that lose exactly what the PCs lose can do wonders.
If you want to you can simply add a negative modifier whenever you are figuring the Party's APL.
I would very much suggest something like Crosswind's idea. Pathfinder is balanced around having readily available magic items. Adjusting CR isn't enough; some classes really do require magic items more than others. This is especially true of any martial class. I've been in a game where we tried to do this and classes like summoner, druid etc. were just incredibly powerful in comparison to straight melee characters who are heavily dependent on their magic items.
At the same time, I do agree with that extremely common magic items are really just not fun, especially trying to balance the items characters would use vs. items NPCs would use. If I were to run Pathfinder I would definitely look at when you would be likely to get magic items, magic weapons and armor and just hand out those bonuses as they level.