My change to the magic item rules

[shallowsoul]

I'm going to try out a new rule in my games. When creating magic items you can only get someone else to cast a prerequisite spell if you are a noncaster or the spell isn't on your list. Ifthe spell is on your list then it must occupy one if your spell slots so no casting directly from scrolls.

Not sure how this will work out but we will see.

[LazarX]

What exactly is your aimed intent on this? To crib bard, oracle,sorcerer, and summoner crafting? Because that's the only type of case I could see this impacting.

[Khrysaor]

Crafting magic items was intended to be easy. SKR has said this in multiple threads.

LazarX has pointed out the obvious flaw to this already, and there's already a rule for not needing the spell at all by adding +5 to the DC.

I don't follow the logic on why a non-caster could be allowed the aid of a caster, but a caster can't be helped by another caster unless the spell isn't on your list.

[LazarX]

Khrysaor wrote:

Crafting magic items was intended to be easy. SKR has said this in multiple threads.

LazarX has pointed out the obvious flaw to this already, and there's already a rule for not needing the spell at all by adding +5 to the DC.

I don't follow the logic on why a non-caster could be allowed the aid of a caster, but a caster can't be helped by another caster unless the spell isn't on your list.

There are certain items where you can't get around not having the spell, scrolls, wands, and potions if I recall correctly. I might be wrong on the last.

[shallowsoul]

Khrysaor wrote:

Crafting magic items was intended to be easy. SKR has said this in multiple threads.

LazarX has pointed out the obvious flaw to this already, and there's already a rule for not needing the spell at all by adding +5 to the DC.

I don't follow the logic on why a non-caster could be allowed the aid of a caster, but a caster can't be helped by another caster unless the spell isn't on your list.

So I'm supposed to agree with everything SKR says?

Sorry, there is a lot I disagree with SKR about and Magic Items are at the top of my list.

Magic items being "easy" is a playstyle, and not a hard fast rule.

[shallowsoul]

Khrysaor wrote:

Crafting magic items was intended to be easy. SKR has said this in multiple threads.

LazarX has pointed out the obvious flaw to this already, and there's already a rule for not needing the spell at all by adding +5 to the DC.

I don't follow the logic on why a non-caster could be allowed the aid of a caster, but a caster can't be helped by another caster unless the spell isn't on your list.

Maybe because non casters don't have spells.

[shallowsoul]

LazarX wrote:

What exactly is your aimed intent on this? To crib bard, oracle,sorcerer, and summoner crafting? Because that's the only type of case I could see this impacting.

Hey, I'd you want to create magic items then that's a sacrifice you have to make. Magic items in my games are rare and special things, not every day things you own.

[Khrysaor]

You're right on the spell completion/activation items, LazarX, but there's specific rules to those. I'm questioning why you would change how the rest of the mechanic works just as you did.

Shallow soul, you're penalizing crafters for no reason. I'm asking you why you would do this. I didn't say you have to follow everything SKR says, it's your game and your rules on how you play them. What I said was, why would you do this when everything indicates this is meant to be easy? Why would you come onto a forum where people discuss rules, and say you're changing something without giving any indication as to why?

Yes this is general discussion, but you're taking offense because I've stated relevant truths to rules and developer opinion.

Magic items being easy is a hard fast rule. The rules for making magic items listed in the CRB makes it very easy to make magic items. Feel free to argue that the rules to making magic items are guidelines, but these things are printed in books that we all have. This makes them the rules of the game as prescribed by the developers of the game. You can arguably change any rule within but then it's home brew and not rule, and usually comes with some justification as to why.

So again, why would you make this needlessly more difficult? And as LazarX pointed out, why would you make this impossible for spontaneous casters?

By doing this, spontaneous casters now have a worse range of items they can create than a non-caster. They have so many spells known but have vast spell lists. Now any spell that's on the list that they don't know is forever out of reach to them in item form unless they buy it. Yet non-casters can still make whatever they want.

Edit: You also speak of sacrifice for making magic items but aren't recognizing the item creation feats and ranks in appropriate skills as a sacrifice.

[LazarX]

shallowsoul wrote:

LazarX wrote:

What exactly is your aimed intent on this? To crib bard, oracle,sorcerer, and summoner crafting? Because that's the only type of case I could see this impacting.

Hey, I'd you want to create magic items then that's a sacrifice you have to make. Magic items in my games are rare and special things, not every day things you own.

You're still not answering my first question. What is the intended effect that you're looking to create? Something a bit more specific than peons about sacrifice and magic being "rare and special". As I don't see your change as having any impact other than on the classes I mentioned.

[shallowsoul]

I have already answered the question.

So you think a caster in the current rules has a hard time creating magic items? To be honest, I believe they have it a bit too easy. They are able to take all the crafting feats, don't have to have any blueprints for items because the knowledge of creating items just suddenly pop into their head, they are able to charge a little bit extra and make a profit on it, they can cut dungeon searching time because instead of going for that super rare sword you heard about in legends you can now just make it.

Remind me again while making the casters do a bit extra work is a bad thing?

[Khrysaor]

When did I say crafting was hard? I specifically stated its easy and was intended to be so backed up by the RAW and developer opinion that says the same.

Taking all the crafting feats prevents you from taking other feats to make your spells more useful, have more combat utility, survival, knowledge, or anything else feats provide.

Crafters are not allowed to charge a little more and make profit. There are rules designed that prevents this. You get your investment back minus the time you put in. Less if you buy the items to be enchanted instead of crafting them with mundane means.

If crafters sell to other PCs at a profit then that's up to the PCs willingness to buy the items they want at a huge discount since the crafter is only getting a minor profit.

Crafters do not make the legendary sword of swords. They make generic enchanted swords. If the GM is allowing crafters to sit in town and use resources, that they shouldnt have because they don't adventure, to make quest related items, that's a failure on the GMs part.

Crafters are limited by time and moreso when adventuring. This is why crafting is so easy. Time is a very valuable resource and most players will not sit around for days while a player crafts.

No one said making casters do extra work is a bad thing. I said your approach to a solution cripples spontaneous casters beyond the effectiveness of non-casters. If you think there needs to be a more balanced approach to caster/martial disparity, then it should be balanced.

Forest through the trees. You're too narrowly focused on "rare and special" to see the question. The intent is to increase the difficulty for crafters to make items since you think they're too commonplace, but your solution cripples a single group only. This makes it near impossible for spontaneous casters while changing nothing for the others really.

[tennengar]

shallowsoul wrote:

Remind me again while making the casters do a bit extra work is a bad thing?

If everyone at your table likes the changes then its never a bad thing. Its only a bad thing if you've decided to nerf it because its a style of play that your players like and you don't or if its a playstyle that one of your players likes that nobody else at the table has a problem with but you.

Me personally I never had a problem with not being able to make magic items back in 2e because rolling on random treasure tables meant sometimes the kobolds had a staff of the magi hiding away somewhere. Between that and random encounter table use it wasnt very hard to find what you wanted...

But that was back when we played 6 hours a day 7 days a week because we didnt have jobs or responsibilities. Take away random encounters and random treasure tables and 40 hour gameweeks and I think the magic item crafting becomes a welcome alternative to 'lucky find' especially when the people at your table are burning up valuable feats in order to be able to do so. Especially considering you still have the gm fiat power to limit their crafting time.

[johnlocke90]

shallowsoul wrote:

LazarX wrote:

What exactly is your aimed intent on this? To crib bard, oracle,sorcerer, and summoner crafting? Because that's the only type of case I could see this impacting.

Hey, I'd you want to create magic items then that's a sacrifice you have to make. Magic items in my games are rare and special things, not every day things you own.

Its very little sacrifice for a wizard. He can prepare the spell when crafting and then stop preparing it. Its a big sacrifice for a Sorcerer who has to give up a spell known for a long period of time.

Now, if you think spontaneous spellcasters like Sorcerers and Oracles are overpowered and want to bring them in line with Wizards and Clerics, then this rule will help accomplish that.

[shallowsoul]

Khrysaor wrote:

When did I say crafting was hard? I specifically stated its easy and was intended to be so backed up by the RAW and developer opinion that says the same.

Taking all the crafting feats prevents you from taking other feats to make your spells more useful, have more combat utility, survival, knowledge, or anything else feats provide.

Crafters are not allowed to charge a little more and make profit. There are rules designed that prevents this. You get your investment back minus the time you put in. Less if you buy the items to be enchanted instead of crafting them with mundane means.

If crafters sell to other PCs at a profit then that's up to the PCs willingness to buy the items they want at a huge discount since the crafter is only getting a minor profit.

Crafters do not make the legendary sword of swords. They make generic enchanted swords. If the GM is allowing crafters to sit in town and use resources, that they shouldnt have because they don't adventure, to make quest related items, that's a failure on the GMs part.

Crafters are limited by time and moreso when adventuring. This is why crafting is so easy. Time is a very valuable resource and most players will not sit around for days while a player crafts.

No one said making casters do extra work is a bad thing. I said your approach to a solution cripples spontaneous casters beyond the effectiveness of non-casters. If you think there needs to be a more balanced approach to caster/martial disparity, then it should be balanced.

Forest through the trees. You're too narrowly focused on "rare and special" to see the question. The intent is to increase the difficulty for crafters to make items since you think they're too commonplace, but your solution cripples a single group only. This makes it near impossible for spontaneous casters while changing nothing for the others really.

Never said you said it was hard. I was actually implying the opposite, you said it was easy and you claim SKR said it was meant to be easy. I'm agreeing that its easy and I feel it's a little too easy. Easy magic items was 4th editions philosophy because the items were built directly into the progression so they lost they're rare and special appeal.

[Khrysaor]

shallowsoul wrote:

So you think a caster in the current rules has a hard time creating magic items? To be honest, I believe they have it a bit too easy.

I seem to be misunderstanding your implication when you said I think crafting is hard.

You also need to understand that the rule set that is pathfinder was created with all the other rules in mind to give an overall balanced feel to the game. This is a holistic approach. Altering one rule will affect other parts of the whole.

The game is based on standard WBL, and as such means you are expected to have certain items to maintain survivability. Reducing the overall magic item presence alters the WBL table. This in turn leaves you under equipped for CR appropriate encounters.

Edit: there's another thread on the go about a low magic campaign that someone suggested making artifact style items and add them in to get the unique feel. This lets you keep the common placed items and a GM can just arbitrarily make cool items for their players and give them out from time to time or have a weapon/armor/item of legendary status.

Or just play PFS style and ban crafting feats. Make up some story of wizards getting out of control with infusing items and an explosion rocked a city from the face of a planet. Everyone saw the dangers of crafting and banned it, making magic items more unique and rare.

With no one making more items, there's a limit to what can exist. Make a system of alchemical components obtained from magical beasts and other creatures for making expendable items like troll blood for cure potions.

P.S. my group gets annoyed with me wanting to harvest everything or devise a system where you can create magic items like potions or poisons from monsters but I keep pushing. Only makes sense that a venom sack from a creature would yield useful poison or an antennae from a rust monster could become a rusting whip or some such. Maybe a one time use rust bomb I can toss at a golem.

I'm not a huge fan of always needing money to get the necessary magic components required for crafting. Where did the venders get the materials?

[Nicos]

I do not like the magic item creation rules, but as lazarx pointed out this houserule only hurts spontaneuos casting while classes like wizards and specialy clerics would remains the same.

if you do not like the rule just do not allow crafting or if you want to allow crafting but want to make the procces more dificult require material componet besides the gold. For example, if the wizard wants to build a cloak of displacement he needs something like the skin of a displacer beast.

[Gnomezrule]

I think Shallow is on to something with the idea that one feat lets you craft any item of that type. It is something that has bothered me too.

I think Shallow's fix will as Laz pointed out hurt some casters but not others.

I would propose the integration of blue prints and prototypes. When someone takes a crafting feat they gain 3d4 blue prints or book of trade secrets or whatever. Going forward other blue prints would make nice treasure to spice things up, these might be able to be traded or dealed for so that there is acess to more. If they have an extended stay. Research trial and error can be used to creat prototypes yeilding the item desired and a blueprint.

Lastly I would suggest adding secret ingreedients. Well that item or that special quality requires, pixie dust, manticore spikes, displacer beast hide. Have fun with it. This creates sidequests, back alley deals for dangerous components.

[st00ji]

your ruling seems ill considered to me, and affects different classes differently.

if you want to make magic items rare and special, then bin the crafting feats altogether. players can take what they get, or if someone wants something special you can make a properly epic quest - researching ancient plans or formulas, heading into forgotten mines to get some special ore, convincing a clan of dwarves to let the PC use their enchanted forges or what ever.

[shallowsoul]

Gnomezrule wrote:

I think Shallow is on to something with the idea that one feat lets you craft any item of that type. It is something that has bothered me too.

I think Shallow's fix will as Laz pointed out hurt some casters but not others.

I would propose the integration of blue prints and prototypes. When someone takes a crafting feat they gain 3d4 blue prints or book of trade secrets or whatever. Going forward other blue prints would make nice treasure to spice things up, these might be able to be traded or dealed for so that there is acess to more. If they have an extended stay. Research trial and error can be used to creat prototypes yeilding the item desired and a blueprint.

Lastly I would suggest adding secret ingreedients. Well that item or that special quality requires, pixie dust, manticore spikes, displacer beast hide. Have fun with it. This creates sidequests, back alley deals for dangerous components.

I agree with you about the blueprints. Also, the main problem with the crafting feats is some people don't seem to grasp just how powerful they are and Paizo has done a poor job of implementing them beside other clearly inferior ones. All the craft feats require is a certain level and a feat slot, very low investment for such a big gain. I think they should be part of a chain and I would break them up into three stages. You could take Lesser Craft Magic Arms and Armor to create arms and armor up to a certain price, then you take Improved Magic Arms and then Greater. So to be good at crafting you would have a three feat investment. Pathfinder has continued to make magic item creation too easy so its actually gotten people spoiled.

[Khrysaor]

shallowsoul wrote:

I agree with you about the blueprints. Also, the main problem with the crafting feats is some people don't seem to grasp just how powerful they are and Paizo has done a poor job of implementing them beside other clearly inferior ones. All the craft feats require is a certain level and a feat slot, very low investment for such a big gain. I think they should be part of a chain and I would break them up into three stages. You could take Lesser Craft Magic Arms and Armor to create arms and armor up to a certain price, then you take Improved Magic Arms and then Greater. So to be good at crafting you would have a three feat investment. Pathfinder has continued to make magic item creation too easy so its actually gotten people spoiled.

This is strictly your opinion and not "some people's failure to grasp the power of the feats". Crafting also requires skill point investment. Crafting also requires a time investment. Try crafting a +3 sword while adventuring. Your campaign will be over before you finish it taking you 72 days to create. 36 days if you use the rushed mechanic. You can also be attacked during your 4 hour block, ruining the opportunity altogether and netting no gain.

The only mechanic of crafting I can see worth changing is the ability to take 10. There is an inherent danger to crafting that is making cursed items. Remove the option to take 10 to make those items more prevalent and dangerous.

Please give up your nonsense rhetoric about the imbalanced nature of these feats. This topic has been beaten to death and shown how the balancing was taken into account. An officiall FAQ has been made about it. If you don't agree with it, then homebrew your game. This is exactly the reason this thread ended up here and not in general discussion. This is your opinion on how the game should be.

[shallowsoul]

Khrysaor wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

I agree with you about the blueprints. Also, the main problem with the crafting feats is some people don't seem to grasp just how powerful they are and Paizo has done a poor job of implementing them beside other clearly inferior ones. All the craft feats require is a certain level and a feat slot, very low investment for such a big gain. I think they should be part of a chain and I would break them up into three stages. You could take Lesser Craft Magic Arms and Armor to create arms and armor up to a certain price, then you take Improved Magic Arms and then Greater. So to be good at crafting you would have a three feat investment. Pathfinder has continued to make magic item creation too easy so its actually gotten people spoiled.

This is strictly your opinion and not "some people's failure to grasp the power of the feats". Crafting also requires skill point investment. Crafting also requires a time investment. Try crafting a +3 sword while adventuring. Your campaign will be over before you finish it taking you 72 days to create. 36 days if you use the rushed mechanic. You can also be attacked during your 4 hour block, ruining the opportunity altogether and netting no gain.

The only mechanic of crafting I can see worth changing is the ability to take 10. There is an inherent danger to crafting that is making cursed items. Remove the option to take 10 to make those items more prevalent and dangerous.

Please give up your nonsense rhetoric about the imbalanced nature of these feats. This topic has been beaten to death and shown how the balancing was taken into account. An officiall FAQ has been made about it. If you don't agree with it, then homebrew your game. This is exactly the reason this thread ended up here and not in general discussion. This is your opinion on how the game should be.

Actually, you can craft while adventuring. It does take longer but it can be done, also there are ways to shorten the time. You don't need craft at all, you can go and buy the masterwork sword or have a companion craft it. Time is nothing when you have a DM who says "okay 72 days come and go, next encounter".

Pc's have it way too easy when it comes to crafting magic items.

[Artanthos]

LazarX wrote:

What exactly is your aimed intent on this? To crib bard, oracle,sorcerer, and summoner crafting? Because that's the only type of case I could see this impacting.

The spontaneous caster can purchase a ring of spell knowledge or a page of spell knowledge.

In fact, a spontaneous caster should probably already have the ring.

[Khrysaor]

Artanthos wrote:

LazarX wrote:

What exactly is your aimed intent on this? To crib bard, oracle,sorcerer, and summoner crafting? Because that's the only type of case I could see this impacting.

The spontaneous caster can purchase a ring of spell knowledge or a page of spell knowledge.

In fact, a spontaneous caster should probably already have the ring.

This is still only an imposition on spontaneous casters. Nothing of the mechanic has been changed for prepared casters or non-casters. There is still no answer as to intent.

[Ross Byers]

I removed some posts. Chill.

[theishi]

Khrysaor wrote:

Artanthos wrote:

LazarX wrote:

What exactly is your aimed intent on this? To crib bard, oracle,sorcerer, and summoner crafting? Because that's the only type of case I could see this impacting.

The spontaneous caster can purchase a ring of spell knowledge or a page of spell knowledge.

In fact, a spontaneous caster should probably already have the ring.

This is still only an imposition on spontaneous casters. Nothing of the mechanic has been changed for prepared casters or non-casters. There is still no answer as to intent.

Nor will we get one. OP has a grudge against spontaneous casters for some reason and he won't say why.

OP if you really think crafting magic items is OP, why don't you suggest a rule that makes it harder for all casters, not just Bards and Sorcs? Also spellcasters have knowledge of spells and arcane stuff. Sorcs should know much more then a fighter about spells not on his list as he specialized in magic. Sorcs should have a much easier time crafting magic items then a fighter. If a character has to have a spell on his spell list to make a magic item, then non casters should not be allowed to craft magic items period.

[Khrysaor]

Ross Byers wrote:

I removed some posts. Chill.

I like that you removed my post that was entirely facetious, non offensive, and within the rules of your tees of use policy.

I like that you removed my post that had nothing offensive in it and was backed up by your own gaming rules and terms of use policies.

I like that you left Shallowsouls posts that I replied to that were offensive and violate your terms of use policy.

I find this entire thread offensive and a person who upholds opinion and refuses to justify a bias, is the definition of bigoted statements. This is one of the many clauses of unacceptable behaviour you have listed in your terms of use.

Just because someone takes offense to a post doesn't mean the post is offensive.

Please moderate some more.

[Khrysaor]

theishi wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

Artanthos wrote:

LazarX wrote:

What exactly is your aimed intent on this? To crib bard, oracle,sorcerer, and summoner crafting? Because that's the only type of case I could see this impacting.

The spontaneous caster can purchase a ring of spell knowledge or a page of spell knowledge.

In fact, a spontaneous caster should probably already have the ring.

This is still only an imposition on spontaneous casters. Nothing of the mechanic has been changed for prepared casters or non-casters. There is still no answer as to intent.

Nor will we get one. OP has a grudge against spontaneous casters for some reason and he won't say why.

OP if you really think crafting magic items is OP, why don't you suggest a rule that makes it harder for all casters, not just Bards and Sorcs? Also spellcasters have knowledge of spells and arcane stuff. Sorcs should know much more then a fighter about spells not on his list as he specialized in magic. Sorcs should have a much easier time crafting magic items then a fighter. If a character has to have a spell on his spell list to make a magic item, then non casters should not be allowed to craft magic items period.

This is what some of us have mentioned only to be met with hostility.

[Vestrial]

shallowsoul wrote:

Actually, you can craft while adventuring. It does take longer but it can be done, also there are ways to shorten the time. You don't need craft at all, you can go and buy the masterwork sword or have a companion craft it. Time is nothing when you have a DM who says "okay 72 days come and go, next encounter".

Pc's have it way too easy when it comes to crafting magic items.

lol, so PC's of GMs who make it too easy on them have it to easy. Makes sense. And if a GM says '72 day's come and go,' all he's saying is 'you're going to be wasting a ton of time,' unless you happen to have 31,000 gold laying around with which to utilize those free crafting days.

Personally, I think crafting requires too big an investment. Casters get very few feats, and if they want to be a generalist crafter they basically sacrifice all of them. In literature it's much more common for wizards just to be able to make items as a matter of being a caster.

That said, just get rid of the feats all together if you actually want to make it 'rare and special,' because your changes don't do that. My last GM removed the feats, and if you wanted to craft something you had to find/discover/commission a formula for the thing (blueprint), which usually required particular ingredients, and the formula was only good for creating that one particular item. Worked out quite well. I was able to quest for the plans to create my uber stave of temporal mastery, but I didn't have to sink 4 feats into it, and I also wasn't a magic item machine for the party...

[shallowsoul]

Vestrial wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

Actually, you can craft while adventuring. It does take longer but it can be done, also there are ways to shorten the time. You don't need craft at all, you can go and buy the masterwork sword or have a companion craft it. Time is nothing when you have a DM who says "okay 72 days come and go, next encounter".

Pc's have it way too easy when it comes to crafting magic items.

lol, so PC's of GMs who make it too easy on them have it to easy. Makes sense. And if a GM says '72 day's come and go,' all he's saying is 'you're going to be wasting a ton of time,' unless you happen to have 31,000 gold laying around with which to utilize those free crafting days.

Personally, I think crafting requires too big an investment. Casters get very few feats, and if they want to be a generalist crafter they basically sacrifice all of them. In literature it's much more common for wizards just to be able to make items as a matter of being a caster.

That said, just get rid of the feats all together if you actually want to make it 'rare and special,' because your changes don't do that. My last GM removed the feats, and if you wanted to craft something you had to find/discover/commission a formula for the thing (blueprint), which usually required particular ingredients, and the formula was only good for creating that one particular item. Worked out quite well. I was able to quest for the plans to create my uber stave of temporal mastery, but I didn't have to sink 4 feats into it, and I also wasn't a magic item machine for the party...

Too big an investment? You're joking right? Currently, with about 5 or so feats, you are able to create "any" non artifact item in the game. You act like magic items have just become a simple part of the norm to the point where you are complaining about the investment. You shouldn't be able to make your caster into something you want "and" make them into a master crafter of all items. You have no idea what investment is until you play prior editions of D&D. If you want to be a master crafter then you have to sacrifice something else in order to do that, it's that simple.

[shallowsoul]

theishi wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

Artanthos wrote:

LazarX wrote:

What exactly is your aimed intent on this? To crib bard, oracle,sorcerer, and summoner crafting? Because that's the only type of case I could see this impacting.

The spontaneous caster can purchase a ring of spell knowledge or a page of spell knowledge.

In fact, a spontaneous caster should probably already have the ring.

This is still only an imposition on spontaneous casters. Nothing of the mechanic has been changed for prepared casters or non-casters. There is still no answer as to intent.

Nor will we get one. OP has a grudge against spontaneous casters for some reason and he won't say why.

OP if you really think crafting magic items is OP, why don't you suggest a rule that makes it harder for all casters, not just Bards and Sorcs? Also spellcasters have knowledge of spells and arcane stuff. Sorcs should know much more then a fighter about spells not on his list as he specialized in magic. Sorcs should have a much easier time crafting magic items then a fighter. If a character has to have a spell on his spell list to make a magic item, then non casters should not be allowed to craft magic items period.

Oh yeah, you got me there.

[Khrysaor]

shallowsoul wrote:

Too big an investment? You're joking right? Currently, with about 5 or so feats, you are able to create "any" non artifact item in the game. You act like magic items have just become a simple part of the norm to the point where you are complaining about the investment. You shouldn't be able to make your caster into something you want "and" make them into a master crafter of all items. You have no idea what investment is until you play prior editions do D&D. If you want to be a master crafter then you have to sacrifice something else in order to do that, it's that simple.

You don't think 50% of your total feats is a big investment? You're joking, right? You act like magic items are meant to be obscure in a game designed around having access to them and you're complaining about the investment. You should be able to make your caster into something you want like a master crafter of all items. You have no idea what investment is until you stop referring to older editions of D&D and refer to the system presented to you. If you want a master crafter then you have to sacrifice something else, that being your feats, skill, and time, in order to do that, it's that simple.

[Khrysaor]

shallowsoul wrote:

theishi wrote:

Nor will we get one. OP has a grudge against spontaneous casters for some reason and he won't say why.

OP if you really think crafting magic items is OP, why don't you suggest a rule that makes it harder for all casters, not just Bards and Sorcs? Also spellcasters have knowledge of spells and arcane stuff. Sorcs should know much more then a fighter about spells not on his list as he specialized in magic. Sorcs should have a much easier time crafting magic items then a fighter. If a character has to have a spell on his spell list to make a magic item, then non casters should not be allowed to craft magic items period.

Oh yeah, you got me there.

He asked you a question and made statements of contention and again you dismiss his entire argument with another one line response. Why exactly do you post on these boards if not to troll?

[Jhidurievdrioshka]

Well the OP originally put this in 'Discussion' and not 'Advice' and Didn't pose a question with his original post. Moving the post to 'suggestions/homebrew' would, in spirit, change the semantics of the post from

'here's what i'm doing' (discussion/talk freely amongst yourselves)
or
'here's what i'm thinking of doing' (advice/point out some pitfalls to it I might be overlooking)
to
'here's what I'm doing' (suggestions/and you should do it too!)

So theres one area where i'm not totally sold on admins moving posts around on their own because clearly I think 'discussion' was the original intent. It doesnt sound like shallowsoul wants advice or wants to suggest you try it out for yourselves. More like an official announcement than asking for advice or critique.

In that spirit I'd like to say I'm happy he's willing to give it a try at his table. Deciding if its the best thing thats ever happened to pathfinder or the worst funkilling partywipetastic tactic or anywhere inbetween is all just theorycraft until you put your players through it!

From a published standpoint its fair to say spontaneous casters should be able to craft magic items because thats how its published, but I can see a logic to the idea that someone who's spent their life studying how it works should be better at doing such things than a guy who just happens to be able to pull magic out of his @ss...

Only shallowsoul knows for sure if he's doing it for thematically interesting reasons or if he's just doing it because his table is full of spontaneous crafters that he'd like to beat down a little bit. Maybe he's just trying to turn his spontaneous casters into study casters so that he has better control of what spells they get.

I approve of the first, dont approve of the rest, but thankfully its not my table and I dont accuse the OP of any of it off hand. As it was originally intended as a discussion then i consider the semantic of the post to be 'here's what i'm doing... story at 11! Stay tuned!'

So I'm staying tuned!

I've always been a follower of the philosophy that 'the one true religion needs no sales pitch'. If it's clearly the inexorable truth then it should be crystal clear and evident everywhere you look. Not giving your players access to crafting will definitely mean their normal cr encounters will kick their butts. On the other hand i'm a 2e person so I don't think the party should only have to face things within their 'range' anyway. Shallowsoul isnt even saying that he's taking crafting away completely, he's just leaving it in the hands of those that study the nature of it instead of giving it to those that just happen to be able to whip it out due to some fancy bloodline or such... Thematically that kinda seems appropriate to me, while mechanically clearly it rooks the spontaneous casters.

I think its interesting, and each table has to decide for themselves if they think the change is lame or not, but if shallowsoul's table is willing to find out if the burner is hot by touching it then I say go forth and let us know how it works out! If the 'one true religion' theory holds, then your game should go horribly and everyone should walk away from it feeling like it was a terrible idea. If it works out ok, then the 'one true religion' that "taking it away from spontaneous casters is mean and horrible and makes your table miserable" doesnt hold up to playtest and I think I look forward to hearing either result! Keep us posted!

[Khrysaor]

No one has told him not to do this. I told him to go ahead and do it. Its his game and how he chooses to play it is entirely up to him. What has been said, was that some of us were curious as to what he hoped to gain by doing this and that some of us saw the unbalanced nature of the approach. I even gave suggestions to make this harder for any crafter or the outright removal of the crafting feats and take a PFS approach. He continually hides his intent and meets any question or response with hostility which is why this thread continually degenerates.

Presenting this in discussion means you want to talk about it.

Discuss: to consider or examine by argument, comment, etc...

Everything on here that you can post in is an Internet forum.

Internet forum: Or message board, Is an online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages.

[Vestrial]

shallowsoul wrote:

Too big an investment? You're joking right? Currently, with about 5 or so feats, you are able to create "any" non artifact item in the game. You act like magic items have just become a simple part of the norm to the point where you are complaining about the investment. You shouldn't be able to make your caster into something you want "and" make them into a master crafter of all items. You have no idea what investment is...

Oh, the appeal to tradition. Fun stuff. There's a reason I don't play prior editions of D&D. They were horrible. And no, not joking one bit.

I think pure casters should come with access to all crafting feats automatically. In fact, I just added it to my house rules. Crafting for some people is fun. Arbitrarily making crafting more annoying for certain classes is not fun, nor does it enhance the 'rare and special' feel you claim you want. Seems more like you're just bitter new players get to play a fun game without all the suffering you did back in the 'old days.' lol

[StabbittyDoom]

The only "nerf" you can fairly apply to crafting without ALSO requiring a change in how wealth is handled is to change which feats give you what so that the PC can't get 95-100% of what they need from 2 feats (Craft Wondrous and Craft Magic Arms and Armor). Sure, Forge Ring, Craft Wand, Craft Stave, Brew Potion, et al. are there, but they aren't NEARLY as useful, to the point that I doubt I'd ever take those on a character unless I was deliberately making an item crafter, and even then I might not.

Note that by RAW you do not increase wealth by magic item crafting, you merely convert items from the ones you didn't want to the ones you did want by selling them at half market value, buying materials of that amount, and then using them to make an item or items of the same market value as what you sold. This means that their ONLY purpose is to ensure you get the items you want. It converts time into preference, if you will. (Craft Construct being the exception, since only the creator can control those meaning you will never loot one.)

The problem the OP seems to have with crafting isn't so much with crafting as it is with magic items themselves. The OP believes magic items are too prevalent and easy to get (and I'm actually inclined to agree). The problem is that the entire system is designed around the assumption that you get these items, so removing them requires rebalancing the game completely.

My suggestion: Find and use (or modify) one of the systems that replace the entire Wealth-by-Level stack with static bonuses, then replace the entire crafting system with crafting feats that create much weaker, but still useful magic items. These items can only be used by someone who either spends a feat to attune with them or the one who crafted them. Make the crafter take a skill specifically for making magic items (like Craft (Magic Items)) to balance out their ability to use more items (maybe cap them at 2 per craft feat). Balance magic items against what you expect a feat to be able to give, but lean on the strong side (closer to Power Attack than Prone Shooter) and instead put a bit more difficulty in component gathering.

With the above, the crafter PC still gets to craft stuff, but your other PCs don't get stronger for it (they have to spend a feat to get one, in which case they've broken even). You also get to control what crazy stuff they make either via old fashioned DM Fiat ("It doesn't work.") or via rare components ("It requires a fresh dragon heart.")

[Blueluck]

I dislike your new rule intensely.

[Gnomezrule]

I would also mention that presentation and story can change the Ye Old Magic Shop into fun NPC encounters. Available does not mean its at the local Kmart.

Temples, guilds, hermits, retired knights, hard luck aristocrats, pawn shops all make for interesting ways to get special gear.

[Ninja in the Rye]

StabbittyDoom wrote:

Note that by RAW you do not increase wealth by magic item crafting, you merely convert items from the ones you didn't want to the ones you did want by selling them at half market value, buying materials of that amount, and then using them to make an item or items of the same market value as what you sold. This means that their ONLY purpose is to ensure you get the items you want. It converts time into preference, if you will. (Craft Construct being the exception, since only the creator can control those meaning you will never loot one.)

This is only true if you never find coins, gems, art items, and the like as treasure. A crafter who finds 2000 gold coins might as well have just found 4000.

[Khrysaor]

Yep. Crafters do increase wealth if they find coins, gems, trade goods. The value of these are worth more to the crafter than the non crafter who must buy from an NPC. This is the inherent bonus of taking the feats. There's no way to mitigate this without making the feats worthless to take.

If crafters made items for the cost to buy from the NPCS, you'd be better off taking any other feat to better your character. If another player asked you to make an item for them, you'd tell them to just buy it and not waste your time. If they couldn't buy it because of location, the crafter can charge whatever he wants for his service as supply and demand dictate, and still increase in wealth.

Edit: I should clarify that craft feats don't actually make money worth more. 2000gp is always 2000gp. The feats allow the crafter to turn time and money into an item with a market value of more than just the monetary investment. That item gets sold for the same monetary investment.

[BiggDawg]

What about only allowing people to ignore spells that they don't know, but are on their class spell list with the +5 DC? This would keep prepared and spontaneous casters on relatively equal footing and make it so certain classes make certain items without crippling spontaneous caster crafting ability. Just a suggestion.

I don't have an issue with the rule you have created right now, even with nerfing spontaneous casters some, as it does kind of make sense that wizards would be the best item crafters since they study magic while spontaneous casters just naturally perform magic without having the same level of understanding as wizards. Plus with your current rule knowledge of the spell kind of creates a blue print like set up, as the spell knowledge is in effect the blue print for any item made from the spell.

As long as you give appropriate treasure drops, maybe a bit more tailored to the pcs or allow them to choose where they go adventure so they can research magic items they want and then go attain them, I dont think the pcs will be underpowered.

[StabbittyDoom]

Ninja in the Rye wrote:

StabbittyDoom wrote:

Note that by RAW you do not increase wealth by magic item crafting, you merely convert items from the ones you didn't want to the ones you did want by selling them at half market value, buying materials of that amount, and then using them to make an item or items of the same market value as what you sold. This means that their ONLY purpose is to ensure you get the items you want. It converts time into preference, if you will. (Craft Construct being the exception, since only the creator can control those meaning you will never loot one.)

This is only true if you never find coins, gems, art items, and the like as treasure. A crafter who finds 2000 gold coins might as well have just found 4000.

I suppose I considered that rounding error. That makes up <10% of what I typically find in games I play in (less if you go by market value). Usually I find that even if gold and trade goods are at all involved in the loot of a given encounter (which itself isn't the majority case) it's easily overshadowed by the actual loot discovered.

I suppose even 10% cash does have some effect, but not big enough to be concerning IMO. Cash is the easiest thing in the universe to control as a DM, and there wouldn't be a notable difference even if you didn't. Unless you were a cash-heavy DM, I suppose.

[shallowsoul]

Blueluck wrote:

I dislike your new rule intensely.

Then don't use it?

[shallowsoul]

I'm also working on a rule that will divide up the crafting feats.

For example: Craft Minor Wondrous Items will allow you to create minor items and it will be a prereq to gaining Craft Medium Wondrous Items and then Greater Wondrous Items. It will take you three feats to be able to create all wondrous items.

[StabbittyDoom]

shallowsoul wrote:

Blueluck wrote:

I dislike your new rule intensely.

Then don't use it?

I believe the implication there was that if they don't like, others (including your players) might not like it either and that you should thus pause and reconsider whether the rule is a good fit for your group as a whole rather than just yourself.

Or, you know, be sarcastic. That works too.