One of my players is using a dwarf paladin of Moradin. It has high saving throws, can heal himself swift, can summon his mount, devastates evil outsiders and is really lucky with dices. He's also immune to many spells or effects, and being a dwarf really helps against spellcasters. I'm coming to think paladins are the real anti-mage.
I have some troubles to giving him some significant difficulty
Neutral enemies are an obvious choice. Throw some animals or magical beasts at him.
Also, paladins are best at dealing with a single enemy. If there is an enemy in the party you should never have one single opponent that if killed trivializes the encounter. Even if you have a big bad in the fight, make sure he has a skilled lietenant that is nearly as powerful as the big bad. Forcing a paladin to split his attention is absolutely the best way to challenge them.
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I hear T-rexs find paladins delicious.
-Spellcasters that use touch attack spells or alchemist bombs (which don't typically allow saving throws and can easily hit a heavily armored paladin)
-Ranged weapons. An archer could hit the Paladin with a composite longbow from over 100ft away, well out of range of the Paladin's abilities.
I would start with difficult terrain. A paladin in heavy armor (or a dwarf) is going to have trouble getting around the battlefield. Include some climb and/or swim checks. Try using multiple enemies, some of which use missile attacks and skirmish tactics.
The problem neutral swarms is that the paladin will realize you're solely here to dick him over, not have a fun challenge.
I'd have him fight evil things, yes, but SWARMS of them with channel resistance(if undead) so his channeling will be moot and his smites will be mostly wasted.
A smart player would have a bag of nets+a ghost touch net to deal with this, but make sure when you DM to always have a smart way out of a touch situation, no shades that eat strength damage at level 2.
ill echo the above and throw some neutrals at him. Or just have the evil things be higher cr so he still feels like he is vanquishing evil. He can still shine like they are supposed to it will just be difficult. I knew a toothy paladin who did obscene damage with a bite bite claw.
The party is composed of a rogue 1/leric of eilistraee X drow, a human bard archer, the paladin, and sometimes a rogue 2/ranger x drow halfdragon.
I understand I cannot only throw at him neutral people. Today, there will probably an encounter with a barbarian vrock, an evil cleric and a caotic neutral sorcerer. I'm ok with him buttkicking for goodness (go for the eyes Boo!) to evil people, I'm just worried it would be a pain even against other foes.
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I'm GMing for a Paladin, and it's really not that hard to create encounters for him.
The obvious choice is throwing non-evil enemies against them. Neutral or even Good NPCs can be in opposition to a Paladin's goals. Sometimes Diplomacy is simply not possible or effective enough.
Also, instead of making encounters with a single evil enemy, make some with more creatures... Instead of a CR 9 Demon, use two CR 7 Undead... Having one big enemy is often not a good idea anyway, as action economy will kill it faster than any Smite Evil ever could!
Paladins do not fly or see invisible enemies. They don't automatically hurt incorporeal creatures or ignore difficult terrain either. My Players had a lot of trouble against a Ghost Anti-Paladin, even though that's a very evil enemy.
They also had a rather difficult fight in a tunnel filled with webs, where the cursed spiders could move freely, but for them, it was considered difficult terrain.
Swarms are another good option, as long as you don't abuse it. In case they lack a good blaster, they should at least buy a few alchemist's fires.
Also, their saves are good, but not infallible, especially their Reflex save. Throw in a few explosions or creatures with poisonous fangs and the Paladin will eventually fail a save.
Paladins are terrible at stealth, and not much better in Perception. They lack the skill points, wear heavy armor and have a freaking aura of good that can possibly tell every bad guy where Mr.Holy Champion is.
Take them by surprise. Detect Evil can help with that to an extent, but it's not always reliable.
What if the enemy is not evil? What if it can conceal its allignment? What if Detect Evil doesn't work properly for some other reason?
My players are currently in a underground city plagued with a very powerful, very evil curse. Whenever the Paladin tries to use Detect Evil, he has to make a Will save to avoid a headache. Since there is so much evil around, he detects everything, which means he effectivelly detects nothing.
Is the Paladin a melee character? Throw some creatures using ranged attacks. Is he using a bow? What about a stormy night? Snow and fog also work. The beauty is that most of these things can be used against many other classes as well.
Paladins are an awesome class, and very well-balanced, IMHO. Their options are great, but still limited.
Remember, better than nullifying his abilities, a better adventure is one where he has to use all of those abilities to succeed!
Kinda like a Superman book, where you could defeat him by throwing a piece of kryptonite at his feet, but that's kinda boring... Instead, it's more fun when the enemy forces Superman to use all his powers as well as his cunning in order to succeed!
Sometimes that means a using a villain who is equally powerful, like Darkseid, but many other times, that means using a villain who is clever enough to put Superman in a situation where the only possible way to victory is using all his resources to the best of his ability, like Lex Luthor.
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Suddenly switching to neutral-only enemies would look a bit dodgy. But you can spice things up a bit with them nonetheless; neutral minions to the bad guys.
For example, the naughty wizard summons Lightning Elementals (neutral, good attacks against metal-bearing opponents) to pester the paladin. Before he can unleash Smite neatness, he has to get through the neutrals.
Likewise, constructs. Constructs tend to be neutral, make plausible guardians for evil clerics and wizards, and tend to be resistant to magic, which means the paladin can't just tell his wizard buddy to deal with them.
Also, some summoned Entropic animals; see how paladin guy likes it when they use Smite Law at him :P
Quick thoughts:
Blackmailed or possessed opponents which may force the paladin to non-lethal tactics.
Summoned (non-evil) creatures & constructs.
Situational challenges (difficult terrain, climbing, swimming, etc.)
Creatures with higher mobility (ex. a magus with the dim agility feat chain that attacks and then hides on the other side of a wall or other obstruction) or who can attack in darkness / mist / etc. and not be as affected (ex 120 ft darkvision creatures with longbows).
Innocent victims as human or magical shields (ex damage sharing magics).
-TimD
Do not use single BBEG, also use golems and dominated/bound good outsiders.
Use role playing. The evil enchanter who has a dominated party of adventures guarding his lair(if the pally is aware of the domination). He still has all of his abilities but has to figure out more clever ways to dealing with them then force and good defensive abilities. Don't do this all the time or be a jerk about it(setting him up for a fall) but it can be a good way to challenge the party and the player. I'm playing a pally of Sarenrae who focuses of redeeming the wicked which has lead to some great role playing. I can't use all my strength to deal with many problems. Diplomacy, intimidate, grappling and non-lethal damage all have been valuable. Another bonus is that this forces some interesting encounters among pc's who might not be so keen on not taking the more direct route to dealing with the problem.
The use good aligned opponents working in opposition to your pally should do the trick.
The followers of other good aligned gods (celestials/paladins/clerics/laymen) might oppose your goals, methods or both.
A paladins smite evil is a huge advantage but that is not all the bring to the table. Swift healing and some of the best saves in the game are also a big advantage and those do not depend on the alignment of the opposition. Throw in some spells and a immunities and you have a tough opponent for anyone.
Even using swarms or dinosaurs still have to deal with someone with the only good combat healing in the game. the same applies to neutral spell casters. An alchemist for example does 1d6 per 2 levels damage with his bombs and can add his intelligence bonus, but the paladin of the same level can heal all but the intelligence bonus as a swift action using lay on hands.
Considering most paladins can deal decent damage even vs. neutral characters this means taking out the paladin in combat is extremely hard to do.
The way to really challenge a paladin is to not through combat but to use noncombat challenges. I am not talking about the standard moral dilemma challenges that everyone wants to through at a paladin but rather things that require him to think. Puzzles and riddles would be a difficult challenge for the typical paladin. Create situations where he has to outthink his opponents not just outlast them.
dwarf in heavy armor? kite him with an archer...
Don't dwarfs ignore the armor movement penalty? An archer with 30 foot movement is going to lose ground if he shoots at all.
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I agree with the neutral enemy idea and things like trained attack animals and animal companions will tend to be neutral even if their master is evil.
But I have to ask how much roleplaying there is in your game. If it's strictly one module after the next and let's move on to the next fight, then this might not work, but if there is lots of roleplaying in your game, then there is one aspect that makes great storyline for your party paladin: the moral dilemma.
If you create an adventure where the party must face some moral choice, in which they may have to compromise their values to get the mission done, or must do something bad "for the greater good" then it challenges the paladin more than any other character, and rather than being seen as "picking on" the paladin you will likely be seen as having come up with a storyline that is more interesting for him.
For example: the Evil Wizard has found an artifact that can cause a volcano to appear in a specific spot; unfortunately since the artifact was built thousands of years ago, people have built a city on the site. The wizard offers a deal with the party that he agrees to not use the artifact and in fact will turn it over to the party if they do some deed for him, but if they refuse or try to warn the town of danger then he will use it. Once the party completes the quest, the wizard gives them the artifact as promised, but later on, due to the magical nature of the town's site, a portal to the outer planes opens allowing hordes of Qlippoth into the town. Of course the party can stop the horde in one fell swoop, by activating the device and killing everyone in the town; in fact, this is why the artifact was built in the first place, to stop this invasion.
If the party fails to activate the artifact then soon the Qlippoth will figure out who has it, and they send minions after them to steal it and guarantee that their portal will remain open. Eventually the Qlippoth will offer to release a large number of captives they have taken from the town in exchange for the artifact; their possession of it guarantees the security of the portal and their presence in the world but also saves the innocent civilians they had captured... I think you get the idea.
Peet
Don't play against the players strengths, play with them!
There was a nice comment on this in the GMG (don't have it at hand atm but it was something like "If you always negate the players powers they will ask "why did I take this?"." There was an example with a cleaving warrior, just give him some low-hp-minions to cleave through - he will feel fine and have fun and that is it what PPRPG is about)
I like the idea of "bounded good" outsiders, but don't forget to give the paladin something to smite (e.g. the evil mininons of the evil BBEG who bounded the outsider).
If you negate all the abilities of the player ever, they will get anoyed by it and this isn't fun anymore. Give hm his 5 minutes to shine.
I was running a low level campaign tonight where a paladin had a very big problem with some water:
Paladin failed perception check.
Paladin failed swim check.
Paladin sank to bottom.
Paladin had no darkvision or lightsource (blind).
A single skeleton at the bottom nearly killed him.
Paladin's buddies finally dove in to rescue him after dealing with the other 5 or so skeletons on the surface.
Paladin got out of the water the round before he would have had to check to see if he drowned. (14rounds underwater in combat.)
Said Paladin hates water now. :)
While this cannot be directly applied to the dwarf (he has darkvision) something equally applicable could be arrived at.
Summary: Dwarf in a can sinks like a stone. :)
One of my players is using a dwarf paladin of Moradin.
It has high saving throws,
Not all spells have saves. And frankly... how high are the ENEMIES saves? I don't know what it is... but it seems like all my (9th level sorcerer) spells with their DC's of 17-18 have been having enemies roll saves of 25-35!!!!
I think there is an issue with the 'save' system in pathfinder... but I'm certain it's not all on the players side ;)
can heal himself swift,
Do you want him to die? I have a paladin that can also heal as a swift... but it's only 1d6 so far... and it is BARELY keeping me in the fight. It's nice to have, but it's hardly overpowering... In fact I have the Reward of Life feat that lets me get back 4 hp every time I heal OTHERS.... But honestly they are HITTING me a LOT harder than that... So it's nearly negliable
can summon his mount,
I'm going to go bonded weapon... Is this mount in some harming the campaign? I didn't look too closely at it, but depending on the mount i just have a hard time Seeing this as an actual problem.
That bonded weapon?!?! With the 'property you want for whatever fight your coming to?' THAT I think is going to be a bit OP...
devastates evil outsiders
Stop using evil outsiders ;) Also remember that Double damage I think only works on the FIRST HIT.... I was a little disappointed when I heard about that... but sure enough that's what it is. I think in 3.0 it was the whole fight.
and is really lucky with dices.
Nothing I can do here ;)
Honestly, I think THIS is a major factor in any game. I have had SOME games where I was just a god of the battlefield... and some where I was a useless paperweight. It's all in the dice rolls. The actual character abilities and stats are a minor thing at best when you can still roll like crap and miss the enemies and fail the saves...
He's also immune to many spells or effects, and being a dwarf really helps against spellcasters.
/shrug
There are SOME he's immune to... but I'm not sure if it'll be 'MANY'... Lots of races or classes have bonuses against spells. Each class SHOULD have it's own unique places to shine. Paladins are 'Strong Saves, Good vs. Evil'
I think the problem is the rest of the group is rogues and clerics... or multiclass... You actually NEED someone to be able to dish out that kind of punishment. The moment you nerf him TOO much... the group WILL suffer for it ;)
Serioulsy... a DROW?? Don't they have all sorts of crazy OP powers?? they did in 2E.
@phantom1592
Your 9th level sorcerer should have a DC of at least 20 for your 4th level spells, and the 20 is bare minimum, you should have 22+ for your great 4th level spells. The rolled enemy saves of 25-35 seems kinda high to me, maybe you aren't targeting the weak save of your opponents?
@OP
Also dazing blasting might work on the paladin.
I was running a low level campaign tonight where a paladin had a very big problem with some water:
** spoiler omitted **
Said Paladin hates water now. :)
While this cannot be directly applied to the dwarf (he has darkvision) something equally applicable could be arrived at.
Summary: Dwarf in a can sinks like a stone. :)
Ohhhh YEAH, that's a weakness for my paladin too. SKILLS!!!!! He is nearly terrified of anything involving a Climb, jump, Swim... ANYTHING that brings into account that Armor penalty adjustment.
We just had to 'swing' across a 30' deep pit at level 2... Failure literally meant death to him... But all his allies actually HAVE a dex bonus and light/no armor... so THAT'S where the battle was. It was 3/4 over before I even joined the FIGHT!
Also, Touch AC is a glorious thing to hit them... I have half-plate and shield... My AC is 20... My touch AC is 10 :-/
Try attacking at Night. You can't sleep in heavy armor without waking fatigued. Soooo my paladin had to invest in some studded leather pajamas to help against all the owlbear attacks that seemed to happen at night...
I'm running one through a kingmaker, and those saves are about the ONLY thing I consider a bit OP... everything is EASILY worked around. TOO easily ;)
I WAS proud of my AC... Rich parents got me AC 20 at 1st level... but the monk/Magus multiclass is blowing me away with that too O.o Though he has crap for HP, so he NEEDS to be wiry ;)
@phantom1592
Your 9th level sorcerer should have a DC of at least 20 for your 4th level spells, and the 20 is bare minimum, you should have 22+ for your great 4th level spells.
How do you figure?
10+ Spell level + Chr bonus.
4th level, Chr 19. Soooo I'm currently 18. He's infernal so he's got a +2 with 'charm' spells.... Though frankly after updating him this weekend, I noticed that a LOT of these spells are 'Compulsion' sub school not Charm... so I'm having a HECK of a time finding any spells that ability HELPS me with.... Charm person, Charm Monster.... So far I think that's it. Even the 'Suggestion' They GAVE me as a bonus bloodline spell is a 'compulsion :-/
The rolled enemy saves of 25-35 seems kinda high to me, maybe you aren't targeting the weak save of your opponents?
Probably not! But he's quite the 'hellfire' blaster, and was going after a ghost... who the DM described as 'The 'monks' of the Bestiary...' So I got the impression they were ALL good saves ;)
But I have to ask how much roleplaying there is in your game. If it's strictly one module after the next and let's move on to the next fight, then this might not work, but if there is lots of roleplaying in your game, then there is one aspect that makes great storyline for your party paladin: the moral dilemma.
It's a roleplay heavy campaign, but that's not the point, I'm fine with the roleplay. It's just that when I want to challenge the party in combat, I need to think about it a little more.
I don't want to kill his character, I just want some challange, to make sure he's having fun and the combat isn't too easy. I want him to use his resources, don't mistake me.
It's just that when he does, it reaches the maximum level of Super Saiyan and tear almost everything apart with ease. Maybe I'm just used to 3.5 where damage wasn't so heavy.
Also dazing blasting might work on the paladin.
Dazing spell is overpowered, and I use mostly core.
I forgot to mention he uses a pathfinder conversion to Moradin's Hammer (Player's Guide to Faerun).
Yesterday I got the party fighting during a surprise attack. It has been harsh for the rest of the party. "Vendetta", a barbarian vrock was standing 30 feets away from earth was trying to trip and disarm the paladin with telekinesis without success. But if he went down and fight the dwarf, he would have been swept away. The dwarf can also throw a returning hammer to smite him.
Enemy cleric and sorcerer summoned a celestial dire lion and an earth elemental, going after the rest of the party (putting it into real difficulty). The occasional human monk was the only one who could prevent the lion from opening the cleric like a tuna tin. Because the paladin was going after Vendetta. The bard died killed by a Phantasmal killer because the paladin was not near them to protect the party.
Wow.
@Jesunclo
Yes i know that dazing spell is very powerful (although i wouldn't call it OP), so use it sparingly. Why not being core is a problem?
@phantom1592
Let's use spoilers in order to avoid further threadjack.
At 9th level your CHA should be at least 22.
You should probably have a spell focus for the school you are interested at.
Ghost's saves depend on the class iirc.
Yes i know that the charm descriptor doesn't come up much and infernal's bloodline arcana is kinda narrow (don't forget charm monster).
Can you expand a little on the hellfire blaster thing? i don't get what you mean by that
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To the OP: I think it's great that you're looking for ways to challenge your players. The fact that you're looking for options on how to do this, rather then opt for the defacto "make him fall" scenario is pretty cool.
Neutral NPC's in the employ of an evil bad guy is effective, plausible, and easy.. Give these neutral cronies goatees and black outfits so they just appear evil...
Phantom1592, Leo1925 is correct.
@leo1925
I'm not confortable with the power creep of the rest of the books, and I want to be careful about what I take to my table. Dazing spell is a little overpowered. Sure, It's a 9th level spell with DC of a 6th, but a dazing chained lightning is going to be a save or daze for SIX rounds. Also known as your dead or out of the combat. I really don't need to empower spellcasters. Did I mention the metamagic rod of dazing? How about a dazing meteor swarm?
@Krodjin
Thank you. I aknowledged that sometimes my encounters were easy, and I wanted them to be a better challenge for the group. I want the players to have fun, especially because they don't fight very much.
Players having fun is my highest goal.
Don't dwarfs ignore the armor movement penalty? An archer with 30 foot movement is going to lose ground if he shoots at all.
a dwarf moves 20 an elf or human or what not moves 30. move, shoot, move shoot. how does the dwarf gain ground? Double move? There is also shot on the run etc.
Difficult terrain, the archer could have nimble/agile move etc. That;s how kiting works, and it's done all the time.
I was running a low level campaign tonight where a paladin had a very big problem with some water:
** spoiler omitted **
Said Paladin hates water now. :)
While this cannot be directly applied to the dwarf (he has darkvision) something equally applicable could be arrived at.
Summary: Dwarf in a can sinks like a stone. :)
I ran into a similar situation playing a Dwarven Cleric. We killed the nasty things in the water, and then had to cross the pool of water. One PC attempted to swim and failed. I simply stepped in and dropped to the bottom, walked across the bottom and climbed out the other side.
Hitting a paladin with skill challenges is one way to make life interesting for them for instance a fight across a narrow ledge or on a slanting roof may require dc 10 acrobatics (balance) although in such situations i would suggest failure cause a fairly substantial penalty to actions rather than prevent them as being able to do nothing is not much fun.
Otherwise creatures that cause cursed wounds magic cannot or has difficulty to heal and effects that save for half rather than save or suck will still have an effect on him.
Finally, if a DM starts throwing at my Paladin neutral or good enemies every time (or try to render useless all my character's abilities), well...I would just change character. Or DM.
true true!
As a Paladin player, after about the second time I'd be asking the party "Hey guys, all these people we are fighting are actually ok and not really bothinering anyone, being rather neutral actually, reckon we could instead keep our eyes out for some Demons or the like?"
I'd probably just derail the heck out of your campaign, until it got back to what I wanted to play, as opposed to some adversarial system where you hold all the aces and just spend session after session mitigating players.
If you didn't take the hint and start running the game we came for then its time to pack dice.
Bertious, 'not much fun' IS fun. If a player feels that they always have it 'difficult' but not 'dangerous' then some of the fun is gone. They need the contrast to really enjoy things. Yes, momentarily, it is very NOT FUN. But in the long run it provides more fun to have those moments. :)
Of course, that could just be me and my groups. I prefer danger that comes a hairs breadth away from 'we are totally screwed, yup! we are dead'.
- Gauss
I agree danger is fun what isn't fun is fail the check, fall, take some damage, heal the damage, get back up, fail the check ...ect.
Ahhhh, well, we shall have to agree to disagree then. :)
I think it adds a bit of comedy into the situation when what happened to the paladin above occurs. He was in no real danger of drowning. There was an entire party there to bail him out. It was just...LOL. :)
And, considering that the paladin spends so much time being the center of attention, its good if every now and then someone else gets to rescue HIM.
- Gauss
Easy to fix Zahir:
Round 1:
Archer uses the withdraw action to move 60' away from Paladin.
No AoO due to withdraw action.
Paladin double moves 40' in an effort to keep up.
Distance is now 20'
Round 2:
Archer shoots Paladin and then moves 30'.
Paladin double moves 40' to keep up.
Distance is now 10'.
Round 3:
Archer double moves 60' away.
Paladin double moves 40' to keep up.
Distance is now 30'.
Round 4 and 5:
Archer shoots paladin and then moves 30'.
Paladin double moves 40' to keep up.
Distance after round 4: 20'
Distance after round 5: 10'
Repeat rounds 3-5 until Paladin dies or gives up (assuming adequate distance for the archer to keep his distance).
Can the paladin run during this? Yes. Will that help? No. The sequence will change but the end result is that the Paladin will die or be forced to take cover. Alternately, if the paladin gets into an ranged combat duel with a dedicated Archer he will probably lose.
- Gauss
A paladins smite evil is a huge advantage but that is not all the bring to the table. Swift healing and some of the best saves in the game are also a big advantage and those do not depend on the alignment of the opposition. Throw in some spells and a immunities and you have a tough opponent for anyone.
Even using swarms or dinosaurs still have to deal with someone with the only good combat healing in the game. the same applies to neutral spell casters. An alchemist for example does 1d6 per 2 levels damage with his bombs and can add his intelligence bonus, but the paladin of the same level can heal all but the intelligence bonus as a swift action using lay on hands.
Considering most paladins can deal decent damage even vs. neutral characters this means taking out the paladin in combat is extremely hard to do.
The way to really challenge a paladin is to not through combat but to use noncombat challenges. I am not talking about the standard moral dilemma challenges that everyone wants to through at a paladin but rather things that require him to think. Puzzles and riddles would be a difficult challenge for the typical paladin. Create situations where he has to outthink his opponents not just outlast them.
This. Everyone fixates on Smite as the Paladin's big gun and presumes that therefor against non-Evil foes Paladins must just be below average Fighters and that's simply not the case. Paladins have access to some really useful spells, have some of the best saving throws in the game, have customizable magic weapons but most importantly they have Lay on Hands which, in my opinion, is one of if not the most powerful class feature in the game.
We once had two Paladins go up against a Nuetral Druid and two Dire Bears... not an evil foe in sight... and between the Druid's spells failing and the Paladins being able to self-heal while dealing full attack actions every round, they handled themselves quite well.
Of course nothing says that foes should be trying to take out the Paladin - I'd think many would avoid him entirely in an effort to get to the softer (and juicier) targets. The Paladin's 'challenge' might well be keeping his comrades alive rather than himself.
Easy to fix Zahir:
Round 1:
Archer uses the withdraw action to move 60' away from Paladin.
No AoO due to withdraw action.
Paladin double moves 40' in an effort to keep up.
Distance is now 20'Round 2:
Archer shoots Paladin and then moves 30'.
Paladin double moves 40' to keep up.
Distance is now 10'.Round 3:
Archer double moves 60' away.
Paladin double moves 40' to keep up.
Distance is now 30'.Round 4 and 5:
Archer shoots paladin and then moves 30'.
Paladin double moves 40' to keep up.
Distance after round 4: 20'
Distance after round 5: 10'Repeat rounds 3-5 until Paladin dies or gives up (assuming adequate distance for the archer to keep his distance).
Can the paladin run during this? Yes. Will that help? No. The sequence will change but the end result is that the Paladin will die or be forced to take cover. Alternately, if the paladin gets into an ranged combat duel with a dedicated Archer he will probably lose.
- Gauss
Man, if I had a nickel for every time my Paladin had to chase a lone archer across what was apparently an endless open plain with no help from the party whatsoever, well... I'd be broke.
For the record, I'll bet your archer runs out of arrows before my Paladin runs out of hit points... or are we just assuming an infinite number of arrows along with an endless open plain?
The party is composed of a rogue 1/leric of eilistraee X drow, a human bard archer, the paladin, and sometimes a rogue 2/ranger x drow halfdragon.
I don't understand, what overall level are your PC's? Everything there is "x" . What level of cleric is the drow, etc?
Damocles Guile: At level 1 my archer comes equipped with 120 arrows.
By level 9 I typically carry 1000 or more arrows in a bag of holding and 60 in my efficient quiver. On the run I can reload (instead of shoot he grabs the next quiver of 20arrows).
But, you are correct, no endless plains. And you are correct, your party should be helping too.
My point was simply a counter to the statement that the paladin would be getting 2 attacks against the archer every round. The paladin wouldn't even get 1 unless he switched to a ranged weapon or unless he had something to increase his speed in some fashion.
This hit and run archer concept is quite viable in the hands of a GM. Not so much in the hands of a player. It is more annoying than deadly though.
- Gauss
My answer was
Round 1:
Archer uses the withdraw action to move 60' away from Paladin.
No AoO due to withdraw action.
Paladin uses a full round action to crack open his pokeball and summon his mount.
Mount charges archer. :D
That is of course assuming level 5+ below that paladins have some serious mobility issues.
