I had this fancy idea of making a paladin who multiclasses to ninja. That's something I've decided rock-solid, and I'm not going to change it, so don't even try convince me otherwise :D
I've always wanted to play a paladin, but the code-of-conduct has been a rather turn-off. I know I can play a lawful good character, but what troubles me is how would I justify a paladin using ninja's skills without violating his code?
The basis of this idea was 'the Hand of Vengeance', a Lawful Good angel who once served the Empyreal Lord Ragathiel, but after the disappearance Aroden, pledged himself to service of Iomedae and became known as 'the Hand of the Inheritor' (Not making this up myself, it's in the lore!)
Anyhow, this character, aasimar (angelkin) paladin has the Oath of Vengeance which I find kind of appropriate since the character is a scion of this said "angel of vengeance" after all. As far as I know, a Paladin doesn't need to worship any single deity, or none at all, and this is where I'm aiming at. The character feels more akin to his inheritance, rather to any deities themselves, and follows a personal code of honor, loyalty and justice and aims to punish the wrongdoers anytime and anywhere he can - as if acting as an angel of vengeance himself.
The question is this, how to implement the ninja's skills to the playstyle without doing anything that could be seen as evil or as violating Paladin's code-of-conduct? Is it OK, for example, to use poisons as a paladin, if it serves the higher good purpose? Is it alright to use any means necessary (or at hand), such as Vanishing Trick to accomplish the missions? Where would you put the limit; where you would feel crossing the line?
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Take the more overt combat oriented Ninja skills like Exploding Shuriken (Ki Charge), Feather Fall, Wall Climber, Pressure Points, Evasion, Ghost Step, Unbound Steps (Air Walk), and See the Unseen . Anybody can make use of those and no GM can really dispute their use.
Don't use poison.
You're gold.
In addition, if it were me I'd be just fine with you using Stealth and guile to accomplish your goals. Poison is specifically called out and is further not something that your god grants you or that is accomplished with your own physical prowess. Stealth is a skill, and nothing says that a Paladin must, at all times, challenge their foes head on.
Paladin/Ninja seems like a powerful combo, really. You're basically a magic Samurai.
Poisons are a no-go. Poison may not be evil, but it's most certainly dishonorable.
However, using Stealth to evade your enemies would probably be OK. Just make sure to face your enemies properly should they spot you.
Enemies are flat-footed if you can catch them in the surprise round. Use that and flanking to benefit from SA, while still retaining as much honor as possible when fighting.
That's how I'd do it.
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Don't use poison or lie. Stealth is mostly acceptable. Best bet would be to rely on flanking in melee for sneak attacks.
I don't think that a white lie to preserve peace in a family or one to do something honorable, such as misdirect villains who are trying to find slaves would be acceptable for a paladin.
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There is nothing stating a paladin cannot be stealthy. They also are not prohibited from flanking or using sneak attacks. That is all just good tactics for any warrior. The reason poison is dissalowed is because it is generally seen as the weapon of the dishonorable and cowardly. While people can, will, and have made arguments on that subject, that is the presumption that the game follows.
Some skills are a bit tricky and depend on how they are used. Disguise can be viewed as deceit or stealth. If you use it passively to not be recognized, then it is stealth. If you are trying to impersonate someone, then it becomes a lie. Slight-of-hand depends on the context of what you take and why. Simply stealing some coins to by drinks is obviously out of the question. However, lifting the keys off of a guard, particularly if this avoids physically knocking him out and taking them, would probably be fine. Another good example would be if say a lord forcefully takes some money from some orphans it would be fine to lift it off of him to return it to them if you could not face him in open combat. Bluff can be really hard to pull off. A bluff is not necisarly a lie. Telling someoen you have an army coming when you don't is a lie. Telling someone you have an army coming but not mentioning that it is three days away is a bluff.
That depends on the GM. I don't see why poisoning an evil foe is any more dishonorable than stabbing them in the face. IMO, what makes a warrior honorable or not are his motives and empathy, not his fighting style or weapon of choice.
I had a Vishkanya Paladin build who took the Sleep Venom feat in order to capture enemies alive.
I can see a Paladin who would prefer to infiltrate the BBEG's lair unnoticed and take him out without killing/harming his minions (who may or may not be evil, depending on the BBEG).
Use Stealth to avoid unnecessary fights, but when they are unavoidable, strike fast and hard (i.e.: get them flat-footed) to take them out with the least violence possible.
Come out of the shadows and beat up the toughest bad guy, then use that to intimidate the others, so you don't need to harm them too.
Use your infiltration skills to scout ahead and make sure the path is safe for your companions.
You don't hide in the shadows out of fear, you do it so Evil doesn't see you coming. You do it because it's a more effective way to defeat Evil without harming innocents and/or redeemable foes.
Oh, silly me. Of course I forgot that poisons were in the list of not-to-use. Not that it hirts much to not use poisons, since they're so darn expensive. And dishonorable or cowardly indeed. More into the mechanics, I was planning at least 4 levels of paladin and at least 6 levels of ninja with sanctified rogue archetype, which is rather fitting. According to these amazing thoughts, it would seem, that in general, misleading would be out of question. Even Vanishing Trick, though cool, and epic in itself, is a rather mischievious trick, I admit. Perhaps I just shouldn't take it and thus avoid the temptation of exploiting it for SA :P
Those were pretty good points there, Lemmy. I could definitely see this exact character thinking that way. Though I think, I'll ditch the idea of using poisons anyway. Out of the core assumption if anything, even if they may be used to just debilitate and catch foes alive.
When deciding what your character would do, ask yourself this important question.
"What would Batman do?"
To be serious, paladins don't have built-in codes in Pathfinder. Codes vary by deity or by the individual paladin, which is especially relevant because you don't have a patron deity. He's essentially a paladin on his own, without the support of a church and his own innate sense of right and wrong, as well as his inborn connection to the divine.
Sit down with your GM and talk about how you'd play someone who is Lawful Good and sneaky. You can do it without any problem. There's a lot of very interesting ways you could go with it, too - exploring the idea of vengeance vs justice, slipping into believing that you can't do any wrong, that kind of thing. Could be a cool character.
I'd try and find something to replace the poison stuff from the ninja, as I agree that's not very paladin-ish, and it's also not very useful mechanically.
Using stealth and surprise attacks would be fine, I think. You're out to punish the wicked, and probably consider yourself the judge, jury, and executioner. Just keep in mind that if you're too harsh it's going to be hard to stay Good - redemption and mercy are important parts of being good.
When I played a swashbuckling paladin/rogue years ago I played him as sort of Zorro meets Marlowe. He tried to inspire people to do better, but deep down he found it hard to have faith and believe in the innate goodness of people.
I prefer making characters as much in line with what's legal within Pathfinder Society, when the game takes place in Golarion. Let's say too keep up some integrity, so I'd rather not houserule classfeatures for anything other. I admit that Poison Use becomes a redundant ability, but at least I won't accidentally poison myself if I had to use it for some reason. I suppose Vanishing Trick, combined later with improved eldritch heritage:celestial bloodline's wings could work well with quick and decisive acts of judgement. And I can see why it might remind you of Judge Dredd for example, that's kind of appropriate assumption for a freelance judge like this. Ofcourse a truly good person shows mercy and compassion when needed.
Still, would be nice if your GM let you trade in Poison Use for another level 1 class feature that's roughly in line with it.
Trading it in for the Cavalier's Tactician power would probably both fit the Paladin and be roughly the same power wise. Or maybe Throw Anything or something similar.
It would violate his code and cause him to fall. The code doesn't allow for exceptions.
It's off the cuff rulings like this that bring about all the hatred for the Paladin class.
It would violate his code and cause him to fall. The code doesn't allow for exceptions.It's off the cuff rulings like this that bring about all the hatred for the Paladin class.
Yeah, unlike 3.5 a PF Pally falls for any violation. By the rules, a 3.5 Pally only fell for gross violations.
You can tell a white lie in 3.5 and not fall. One of the bad changes to the code in Pathfinder, they made it stricter.A Ninja/Paladin should take Vow of Truth because you can't lie anyway.
Where does it say that in the rulebook. It does say that if he willingly commits an evil act, he must fall (and lying is not inherently evil), and he must stick to the Code of Conduct, which says he must act with honor.
While lying is pointed out as being dishonorable, there are two things that suggest against a fall in the case of a minor CoC violation:
1.) It does not say the Paladin instantly falls if he strays from the CoC.
and
2.) There is precedent in the "may travel with Evil allies to defeat a greater evil" bit that says the CoC is very flexible on the matter so long as violating it in some small way serves the greater good.
Rynjin, man, I'm with you in this. I too think that people tend to take the paladin's restrictions to impossible levels, as if falling was the whole point of the class. Many of them don't even play Paladins, they just lack empathy for those of us who do.
But having seen these discussion before, and even participating in a few of them, my advice to you is... give it up.
They won't listen. At all.
They want Paladin to be Lawful Stupid pricks who should fall even if they lie to save a child's life, and nothing will ever convince them of the contrary.
So just let it go and stay away from "should this paladin fall?" threads... Works wonders for me.
Johnlocke900, my post wasn't directed at you or anyone else in particular, although, in retrospective, I can see why you may have thought that was the case...
This is a subject that has been the center of many frustrating discussions for me, so I suppose I can seem overly aggressive or dismissive at times. Rest assured that I have nothing against you and wasn't even focusing on this particular thread when I answered Rynjin, I just thought (and still think) that what I said is a pretty good advice.
Avoiding "Should this Paladin fall?" threads is a good way to avoid stress. The code for Paladins is so vague and ill defined that it can be rather annoying at times. The fact that we have so many grognards who refuse to accept that any change to it could possibly be a good thing doesn't help either...
Anyway, sorry if I gave you the impression that I was dismissing you or your post, I assure you that's not the case.
Friendly advice to the OP or any other would-be Paladin player: Talk to your GM about your code's restrictions before deciding to play one. This goes a long way to avoid future headaches...
Easy now, I never wanted this thread to become another case of insulting and personal opinion war.
Yes, I'd like to stick to the rules for the sole fact that I'd like the character be viable for Pathfinder Society as well as any adventure path or homebrew campaign taking place in Golarion.
No, I'm not going to ask house-ruling over something clearly-put fact about CoC, even if that would make more sense morale-wise than rules-wise.
However, this is what it says, word-by-word, about Code of Conduct:
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Furthermore, about Ex-Paladins, it says:
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin yadda-yadda.
And that's what I'm going to follow first-most. It's the part that says "and so forth" under acting honorably which is vague and needed some clarification of consensus among many people. I can understand that using poisons, and lying no matter what are not honorable in any way, even a white lie is misdirection that's not the truth entirely. Overall, it's better to stay quiet than to lie ;)
What comes to fighting using stealth and guile, there's nothing that states this would be dishonorable. If we were to take this to morale level; isn't killing an evil act by the rules We (should) follow? In a world of (Dark?) fantasy and medieval-ish environment life and death are more present every day than in our world (not to dismiss the fact that it's still out there). This is why there has to be rules how to deal with this in the Game; be it that it might be so far away from our personal beliefs.
I see nothing wrong in using stealth or any other advantage(such as invisibility or flanking) to fight clearly evil BBEG's etc. if that's what it takes to get the upper hand on defeating such a villain. Using stealth or any advantage (such as invisibility, darkness, the Silence spell) to avoid needless combat isn't cowardly act, as long as it doesn't include selfish acts for own selfish benefits, such as stealing the gold under the boss's nose; unless it's specifically said that this gold was stolen from it's rightful owner.
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I would say stick as much as possible to the RAW on the alignments, but most people (and GMs) do not really look them up or care about RAW in this specific topic.
So check with your GM what is HIS (or HER) take on all of it : the alignment, the code, what is honorable and what is dishonorable. Go into this discussion understanding that you are likely to NOT agree exactly on most points and thus you and your GM will need to work on finding a compromise you can both agree with.
One possibility I used for my RotRL Ranger was to get a NPC mentor (a Paladin charged with instructing my character in the holy ways of fighting for Erastil) for at least one level before being granted a Paladin's abilities.
This gave my PC time to observe his mentor in action and ask him questions to better understand the Gods' (and thus my GM's) opinion on LG and the code.
That kind of character is EXACTLY what we had in mind when we wrote the gray guardian prestige class in our Rogue's Gallery Book.. They have a more flexible moral code, gain sneak attack progression, and smite. Might be something you'd want to look into. Send us an email (ScottGladstein@LittleRedGoblinGames.com) and we'll shoot you over a free PDF. (If you like it- buy it :D)
~Red
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First of all, I'd have to say that Assassination is not Evil per-se ... if you are a Paladin and there is a wicked witch / warlock / warlord, etc killing innocents and taking slaves, there would be nothing wrong with the Paladin sneaking into the fortress / tower / encampment / etc and doing away with the Evilness which resides within. I mean, what is the other option ... turning up at the main gates and declaring you wish to Joust with the reprobate inside ??? Oh, how much pain you are in when they throw a heat metal on your full set of platemail and then have their minions fill you full of arrows as you spend 4 min (40 rounds) trying to remove the red hot armour while the evil doer renews it on you ...
There is nothing wrong with a "Stealthy" paladin -- I am currently playing one now, Paladin of Iomadae in Cheliax (not the BEST location for a Paladin, and in this case, the riding a Destrier through the streets in full platemail armour, a lance with her coat of arms on it would NOT work ... so you have to adapt your character.
The RAW on the Code of Conduct states that a paladin "loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act" and that a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth).
I've played in games where poison wasn't dishonourable, and that poisoning the next in line to the throne was the accepted way of getting closer to becoming the Ruler of the Empire.
If poison is not considered dishonourable, than that could be used :)
The other answer of course is by not taking poison, you can pretty much do whatever you'd like as a Paladin / Ninja combination.
Stealth does NOT equal Dishonour, nor does assassination in the right context.
Paladins don't have to have a broomstick up there @rse (or @ss for you peeps that don't use English correctly ... :))
Ohhh ... and P.S. Paladins don't have to be celibate or only drink milk either :0
Let's see, in Pathfinder Society, how often have any of you seen a villain who's not evil in alignment? That's right... nearly never ;)
And what would indeed be a good counter for evil villains than to "fight fire with fire" That's something they probably don't expect; at least what one might wish to be true.
I agree, Paladin is unfairly seen as equal to Lawful Stupid Broomstick Up in you-know-where. I'd like to take a slightly different approach. Being Lawful good, honorable beacon of justice and benevolence doesn't mean you're a dim-witted and naïve kid. Neither does a paladin have to kill monster infants just because they're "inherently" evil, in fear of losing his abilities if he didn't do that. That's just wrong, in any possible perspective.
Also agreed on celibacy or absolutism, or rather the lack of it. Nowhere in the rules is stated you must or mustn't. That's a personal choice, nothing else. Just as much a chaotic evil villain might be sober and vowed celibacy as a paladin might. Does that make the CE villain somewhat better person? No.
Besides, on the dwarves' perspective, they're almost always inherently lawful good, their patron deity Torag is lawful good, they favor paladins (even with their dump charisma, mind you) and they still favor a good ale :)