Everyone also fails to recognize that a CR appropriate encounter with one monster is appropriate to your parties APL. This means that an individual from the party would likely fail to defeat the creature by themselves.
4 players of level 20 have an APL of 20. This means a CR 20 monster is an average challenge for 4 people to defeat. If it takes 4 people to kill it, why would one person have abilities that are superior to the appropriate CR creature that requires a party to kill.
I cant remember offhand the way of figuring a single players CR. Lets start with
less than 4 members, you subtract one from the APL. Since one person is not a party would you subtract another 1 from the APL?Looking at CR 18 creatures, CMD ranges from 30 to 57 with the majority around 47.
So...
+20 ranks
+3 class
+10 stat
+10 elixir43 total
You need a 4, 85% success rate to tumble past a CR18. Without the elixir you could spend 2500gp to get boots of elvenkind to have a +38 skill and you'd need a 9, 60% success rate. No investment beyond ranks and you need a 14, 35% success rate.
Add a single feat and you're up to auto succeed against almost every CR18 creature and only need an 8, 65% success rate, vs the hardest CR 18 which happens to be the median for CR 20 creatures.
You can keep juggling with maths for a while, but that does not change the fact that in pathfinder, Green Arrow (who don't have a gadget that gives bonus to tumble), can't tumble. And that IS a problem. It's a character with a heavy investment in tumbling (20 levels, 20 ranks, class skill, 30 dex), and he can't tumble past a broomstick, unless he uses magic gadgets. And, once again... that's Green Arrow, the 20th levle archer ranger. Try to do it with a fighter with, say, 26 dex (that is, like much more nimble than any olympic gimnast ever, plus a magic enhancing belt), and not full ranks on it. What you get? Nothing at all, autofail.
I don't see why Tumble deserve to be way much harder than any other skill in the game. You don't need 20 ranks, 30 Wis , +10 magic item (or elixir), and 2 feats in Survival to be able to track moderately well at level 20. You don't need 20 ranks, 30 int, +10 magic items (or elixir) and 2 feats in Spellcraft to be able to identify a 9th level spell being cast. But with Tumble, as the average DC goes through the roof , you do.(I remember that 3.5 said that DC 40 was "almost impossible", while you have to tumble DC 55+)
It's not like in 3.5 rogues were overpowered. So one wonders... why the nerf?
Isn't there a rogue talent that removes the full speed penalty on tumbling. God forbid someone takes a talent too though...
Context nicos.....
The entire point of that argument is showing that if you reduce the dc to tumble as you guys want, 6500gp buys you the ability to tumble past anything.
So what? 6500 gp buys you the ability to indentify the weakness of the creature too, or to identify all spells, climb all walls, or craft any poison.
Why acrobatics is the skill that need to be harder than any other skill? It's not like the game breaks down when you tumble past threatening zones.
Don't forget your 250 gp elixir. It stacks with your boots of striding and springing.
6500gp doesn't buy that for all other skills. Some skills don't have listed items to give the +5 competence bonus. Now you're making those custom items that you said I couldn't use.
That makes it 2500 cheaper, as you don't need the +5 to knowledge arcana to be able to beat most knowledge arcana DC. ;)
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I said this before, and it was ignored, so I don't know why I'm saying it again.
Everyone's basically talking around the fact that this is really a conversation about Rogues. Fighters generally don't need to care about tumbling, because they don't really need the +2 for flanking. The other martials don't have armor training or sneak attack, so it's not a priority. So we're talking about Rogues, right?
Rogues get +10d6 damage at 20th level if they're flanking. No Feats, no gold, no investment whatsoever. Granted it doesn't work for all creatures, but then again, when it doesn't, you probably don't care as much about tumbling anyway.
So should Rogues be able to trivialize the ability to flank? Or should it be a challenge and part of a party's tactical considerations?
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Talking about rogues and monks. Monks need it for when they realize, "oh crap my class chasis sucks and if I stay in melee I'm gonna F@@@ing die!"
I said this before, and it was ignored, so I don't know why I'm saying it again.
Everyone's basically talking around the fact that this is really a conversation about Rogues. Fighters generally don't need to care about tumbling, because they don't really need the +2 for flanking. The other martials don't have armor training or sneak attack, so it's not a priority. So we're talking about Rogues, right?
Au contraire. One of the poin is that even a amored training fighter, a barbarian, a ranger or a str based monk can better do not try to tumble, all of them wearing mithral armors, having max ranks and having a very decent 24 dex.
Yes, because at high levels, without a significant investment, you can't cartwheel around the BBEG and slice them up like you did at lower levels. By that point, you'll be relying on your party to help you be where you need to be and get where you need to get. Positioning is extremely powerful in combat.
BTW, you know who else finds it difficult to tumble through threatened squares? Pretty much everyone you're fighting.
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I've got a DEX monk with pretty good tumbling skills, fast movement, Daredevil Boots, and so on. His buddy, a rogue, is not so good. But I can position my monk so there's usually a flanking opportunity for the rogue; I might not get sneak benefits myself, but I can increase the average DPR for the party by setting up a sneak attack for the rogue.
In fact, under the right circumstances, we can seriously ruin the BBEGs day. We have the "Lookout" teamwork feat, initiative bonuses, etc. We can, in theory, zip through/round the front lines during the surprise round, flank the BBEG, and still get an attack in (with either a trip attempt or a stunning fist thrown in for good measure). We've usually got time for a second attack, too, before the BBEG's initiative comes up, so that's a full attack from both of us, complete with flanking bonus, still against flat-footed AC - with a prone opponent if the trip succeeded. (If we happen to be traveling with a wizard who can buff us with "haste", that gives us more movement speed to get into position, and an extra attack when I get a chance to flurry.) The BBEG also has to consider casting defensively, and can't move away without provoking an AoO from at least one of us.
After that, of course, we're in a whole lot of trouble - while high DEX gives us reasonable AC, we're not tanks. At this point we rely on the rest of the party to mow down the mooks and get in there to save us while we're still alive. But if the BBEG is preoccupied, they're more likely to be able to do that.
Bottom line: Tumbling is only one part of our strategy, but on occasions it is an essential part - either for getting into position, or getting the heck out of Dodge should things go pear-shaped.
Note: these are PFS characters. As such, they're going to pretty much top out at 12th level. They're currently about half way there.
And it is not like tumbling alone is that great. If you want to avoid to provoke an AoO and still attak in the same turn against a gargatuan enemy you probably would like to need to tumble at full speed. enjoy that 50% extra chance of failure.
At level 20 haste is taken as granted all the time in combat. So full speed is not a factor.
And you are right tumbleing alone is not full trick it just the set up for the sneak attack trap. Cause once I lock you in to Flank on round 1 on round 2 you are most likely dead due mass amouts of dice that I have. Up to 40d6+ weapon dice x4 + Big Fat Numberx4. (this with 4 attacks 3 regular and 1 haste)With more feats this or Magic Items this could be even more Blade of Sub somthing give 2d6 Sneakattack, Presie Strike Team work give + 1d6 sneak attack, Two weapon fight chain gives up 4 more attack that changes the Multipler form 4 to 9.
Bottom line tumbleing works. If you want to do it just take effort of 2 feats of 10, 1 skill point per level for classs that have min of 4 per level, having it as class skill with it is for 4 out 11 base class, Be DEX based race, Spending level up points for Stat on DEX and spend 92.5k* of 880k gp for level 20 PC about 11% of you total wealth.
* 90k of this cost will also help by +3 to AC, Relfex Save, Touch AC, Initatve, to your CMD, and all other DEX based skills to when you defur that of 90k out to six use it comes out to realy 15k for the DEX item +2.5k boots of elvenkid it realy only inesting 17.5k GP of 880k wealth with mean is only .11% of your total wealth to tumble and If you have more than one DEX skill you use it get even smaller.
two feats is certainly too much. I can see buying items to improve some ability, but seriously two feats??I feel the same way to get +2 DC class of spell 2 feat, 2 feat to get +2 damage all the time, 2 feats to do CBM with out the target get AoO back. 2 feat to Channel alot and not heal the bad guys. 2 feat to Summon bigger and better monster.....Realy.....Point is D&D is game of choices you can not do every thing with every PC. Pick your trick and do it.
In pathfinder base PC all get 10 feats. So investing 20% of them to do your trick in small price to pay.
- spell focus works with all spells of the same school you cast, not to mention that can made your spells very powerfull.
- weapon specialization needs weapon focus, but weapon focus is good by itself and also add to the CMB of certain combat maneuvers. and besides,WS is not necesary for fithers to kill things.
- without the cannel feats you still can channel.
- summoning can be a good idea without the summoning feats, monstesr have versatility, you can use them in diferent situation. very diferent with tumble (I know, acrbatics help with other things, but the DC for those other things is probably not as high)
And you not need max stats for channel,summoning, hit things hard and cast powerfull spells, nor max skills, nor custom magic items.
All thing you listed can be done without the expenditure of a feat, the feats just make you better. For tubmle you need the feats, the magic item, the skill points and max dex to just do the basic thing.
So no, your coparision is very flawed.
You can not see the forest though the trees....
Point is all class and build spend at lest two feat on somthing to make it beeter on doing somthing that their base class dose already. So for a tumble build build to spend 2 feat to do there trick or thing is no more of a cost than Fighter spending 2 feat for WF and WS, or cleric or extra turn and slecitve channnel , or Wizard on Schooll Focus and Greater School Focus, ect.... on ..and on ... for any class/ build.
To get the Sneak attack Dice thought feat you need 1 or 3 routes.
1)Skill Foucs Acrabatis, and Acrobits 2and2 feat may still fail
2)Combat Expertise and Imporved Fient may still fail
3) Dodge, Mobilty Springattack cost 3 feat vs costing 2
D&D is game of odd's and decision and try to make them work form you in your favor. But it dose not alway work and if it would not be worth it.
No Risk/Investment...NO Reward or Return.
Locking thread. If you're going to try this topic again, I suggest doing it without the personal attacks and insults to other posters.