|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
We concluded our Kingmaker AP yesterday in an epic romp through Nyrissa's castle that ended, as it should, with a last minute, picture-perfect win by the PCs as the paladin rolled two 20's in a row with Briar. Overall, this is a fun AP with some very memorable moments.
Kingmaker was a lot of fun to prep and my players seemed to have a good time. Below is a list of recommendations of things that worked well for me as the GM and things I wish I had done a little bit differently. YMMV.
1. Foreshadow the fae more than is obvious in the main story line. It helps the last book, which is so different (and awesome) cap the arc nicely. Little clues left in unexpected places, especially in the early parts when the PCs are still very actively exploring, made my group slightly paranoid and always had them looking for a First World connection.
2. Balance the nation-building specifically for your group's preferences. The system of rolling kingdom turns is going to be waaaay too time consuming for some groups and not detailed enough for others. Looking back on our game, there is a lot of focus on this in the middle books, but it doesn't feel like a strong part of the overall arc.
If I could do it again for this group, I would still let them make decisions, but get more of the rolling and randomizing 'off screen' to keep things focused on the action and to cut down on inter-party conflict re: adventuring vs. city turns, which was often and hotly debated with my group.
3. Really think through the war with Pitax. While the city/nation-building is hyper-detailed at times, the war mechanic is hyper-simplified. Paizo says as much, they were not trying to make a full war sim. For my PCs, this aspect could have used a lot more oomph and I wish that I had imported some meatier rules and planned for more conflict opportunities. They loved this part and, as written, it didn't give my group enough war.
4. Give them some memorable NPCs that aren't villains. The seeds are there for you in the earlier books and its worth adding some tailor-made advisors, love-interests, power-grabbers, families, money-grubbers, what have you.
In our game, the General wooed and eventually won the heart of a Swordlord who founded a martial academy in their main city. The King married a young noblewoman from Mivon. Important alliances were formed with the Nomen Centaurs that eventually resulted in a sort of 'exchange student' program. Svetlana and Oleg had a beautiful daughter (who was imperiled by an evil witch at one point!). They had a trusted advisor 'on loan' from Restov who helped with the early kingdom-building and eventually served to keep them apprised of trouble back in Brevoy. To name a few.
Its a sandbox for you as well as the PCs, don't be afraid to play in it.
Congratulations!!
Well done =)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Achievement unlocked, Sandcastle Architect: Gained by persevering through a long and labor intensive AP!
Achievement unlocked, Sandcastle Architect: Gained by persevering through a long and labor intensive AP!
No kidding. :)
Nyrissa can't be vorpaled because of wish.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nyrissa can't be vorpaled because of wish.
That does not stop a second decapitation from happening, only the first.
Great stuff, MB! Thanks!
I've got some stuff lined up that run along with your proposals, so I think it'll be good for my AP. Just a couple things off the top of my head:
- One of my PCs plays a sylph that was "gifted" to the Medvyed family via agents of the First World. She has already been contacted by a powerful agent of the First World about being more observant and asking more questions when it comes to odd findings among fey and fey deaths in the area. Additionally, there will be some clandestine work on the part of the fey to get one of their own into the wedding bed of the king later in the AP to become a player in their kingdom--both against a certain powerful nymph and for the benefit of other . . . mechanizations of the First World.
- I'm using Dudemeister's troll nation under Hargulka in the south for Book 2 (we're not quite finished with Book 1), but his will be more of a opening spearhead for a much, much larger assault coming later in the form of a massive hobgoblin invasion that will coincide with Book 3. Yup, I'm bringing in the "Red Hand of Doom" to give the PCs the opportunity to defend their kingdom much earlier on than Book 6. Because of all this, I'll be bringing in the warfare rules much earlier than Book 5!
-> As a caveat to this, Varn has already befriended them when he met the PCs in Restov (I also started the AP there with them getting their charter. I intend to have Varn offer them help with a small army against the trolls toward the conclusion of Book 2, so that when they need a lot more help come the hobgoblin invasion later and they send envoys to Varn to request it, those envoys never return . . .
- Additionally, in their romp around the northern Narlmarches, they've come into contact with numerous hunters/trappers that have left an impression and will have plenty more opportunities for interaction down the road. The Paladin in the group (the step-brother of the sylph mentioned above) follows the Sarenrae, and so his mission against the bandits in Book 1 has been one of redemption as opposed to annihilation, and he's managed to succeed at converting a couple of them away from banditry.
So, plenty to come in this AP! It should be noted, however, that we're playing it along the Slow XP progression because of all the possibilities it presented!
|
|
Beast, could you elaborate on what war aspects seemed weak? I'm about to start Book 5 and (so far) am going with the rules as written with a multi-pronged attack and "battle missions" during fights so the party's actions can grant OV and DV bonuses to their side.
Sure thing! I don't think that the rules as written are weak, persay, but my group wanted MOAR BATTLE! They wanted to roll more dice and have more big war map tactical planning.
I named, or had the PCs name, each battle unit created. So we had some basic infantry named The Fighting Owlbears and a scout/ranger unit named The Swamp Rats, for instance. Each of the players at my table picked a unit or multiple units that they were responsible for during battle, even if their character wasn't physically present with that unit.
Ultimately, I wish I had incorporated more tactics - flanking, prep of the field of battle, etc. Basically, give the PCs a chance to roll a lot more dice. The rules as written try to simplify each engagement into just a few rolls, and I wished for more when all was said and done.
It also felt to us like each engagement ended fairly quickly. Finding more opportunities to draw it out gives it a better "battle feel".
My best recommendation is play a battle out yourself beforehand. See how the rolls go and how quickly/not quickly it resolves, then make adjustments as needed so your players get the epic war that they are looking for. I think part of my concern was that I did NOT do this and I was surprised by how quickly some turns resolved.
I hope this helps!
|
|
Great stuff, MB! Thanks!
A bunch of really cool Kingmaker ideas.
Red Hand of Doom is still my favorite 'Adventure Path' ever. What a cool thing to incorporate into Kingmaker!
It looks like you should have lots and lots of depth to explore and that fey connection will definitely help you out in later books.
Good luck and be sure to post on the boards how your ideas work out. It should be epic!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One of my players was very very big on pre-warfare prep, to a level of detail that the game just isn't meant to handle. Let me post one of his MASSIVE suggestion posts...
Spoiler:Jaekah would be thinking more long-term, preparing for troll attacks. He would definitely leave any forces Takeshi is in charge of alone. Though, if a big troll attack happens... Yeah, jaekah would be asking for help, if even just cover fire from archers. ANYthing to help.
Also: Warriors seem to be proficient with tower shields. If Jaekah had only a week to prepare for a Troll raid, he'd get as many townfolk as possible and divide them into three teams. He drills one team with shield, spear, and Phalanx tactics. The second team with lighter shields and throwing javelins. The last team trains with crossbow and shortbow.
The Phalanx will be a wall of humans, with long spears made solely of sharpened wood, with a shallow trench of fire in front of them. Trolls charge up, they set their spears on fire (with a wet rag halfway down the shaft to keep the fire from burning down too far), and brace for the troll charge. If the trolls engage the Phalanx from ten feet away, the trolls and the phalanx will have reach, and the trolls are fighting in a shallow pit of fire. Granted, they could move up closer, so perhaps the fire trench is only five feet in front of the phalanx wall.... But what if the trolls break the lines? That's what a second wall of humans, behind the main phalanx is for. All the while, they're throwing javelins soaked in pig stomach acid (potent stuff) in an arc over the phalanx wall. Behind THEM, the line of archers, flinging burning and acid-soaked arrows and bolts all the while. (if no time to craft proper bows, then they can throw acid soaked and burning javelins in tandem with the second wall. First turn, one team soaks, one team throws. Next turn, the soaked ones throw, the other team soaks. (or applies fire)
If the battle drags on, the main thing would be to hold position with the trench of fire. Engaging the Trolls on these grounds is tantamount. If the simple wooden spears of the townsfolk burns through, they throw the spears and have another set brought to them. (Sharpened sticks; simple but effective under duress. Just needs a lot of trees to make them...)
If the trolls shoot ranged weapons, the same Phalanx forms up into a Turtle formation; gather up into a bunch, shields on all sides and over the majority of them, hold their shields upwards. Standard action to set your tower shield up to provide total cover. That wouldn't stop, say, a siege catapult's huge ammo, or a boulder being thrown in their ranks, but the damage from normal arrows would be drastically reduced.
(I like Romans, what can I say.)
And while the trolls are busy dealing with that, a group of kobolds sneaks up behind the trolls, and start throwing splash weapons. Molotov cocktails, vials of pig stomach acid... And after a volley of that, then the wolves and spiders go in to flank from behind. Or: some trolls break away to chase the kobolds; kobolds run, trolls follow, wolves and spiders make an ambush on them. Or lead a merry chase to keep some trolls away from the front.
I've... Thought a bit about this. I don't know if the mass combat rules allows for that kind of finesse.
This is the most basic, week-of-preparation sort of plan that Jaekah would try to muster up. Anything that works better than this is strictly bonus. (ie: proper armour for the phalanx alongside the tower shield, proper spears with metal tips, though that doesn't burn as well... Much more time to train and prepare, THAT would be priority.)
Knowing that war has been declared with the trolls, Jaekah would be pushing for this immediately. T'was hard for me to articulate that in-session, with everyone talking, and two months of time passing in just about one minute. I'm not very good at coming up with this stuff on the spot. At first, Jaekah would be asking for volunteers, whoever wants to join the army, alongside anyone else that's officially there for the army. He'd gather as many people as he can, and begin to drill them with basic training. Using a spear in tandem with a shield, throwing spears, quarterstaff training on the side for better combat instincts, quickly lighting or dipping spears and javelins and throwing them, target practice with them... Jaekah's going to prepare for the worst.
Even if he doesn't have a barracks yet, he'll gather volunteers and train them out in the plains outside the city. He is NOT going to waste time with this.
Sadly I had to tell him that the rules are far too simplified to mirror his tactics, and that seemed to take a lot of the wind out of his sails.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I heard about something called "War Machine" that several GMs used for their Kingmaker warfare. I modified the KM Mass Combat heavily, which still did not result in a properly long war. Mostly due to the combination of distances (short, very short) and the length of battles (FAR too short per phase).
Orthos: I'd say that the unit(s) he trains for dealing with the trolls' regeneration has a BP cost for the specialized equippage [masterwork weapons = includes acid and alchemists' fire] that denies the trolls their regeneration. Note that the regeneration applies per phase, so it is not as insurmountable as one might think.
Yeah, I did my best to apply what he wanted to individual upgrades, tactical maneuvers, equipment, and resources presented in Book of the River Kings, but when he started getting into the complex tactical maneuvers, talking about how each troupe would be engaging the enemies down to the individual level, I just had to plainly tell him "The rules really don't account for things on that detailed a scale." And I'm a bit too new to the system to feel comfortable tinkering around with it too much.
|
Sure thing! I don't think that the rules as written are weak, persay, but my group wanted MOAR BATTLE! They wanted to roll more dice and have more big war map tactical planning...I hope this helps!
Actually does help! We have spent hours on kingdom building and getting stronger to build armies, and to have the only substantive battles boil down to a few relatively quick rolls seems anti-climatic. I understand the rules needed to be simple and to not make this book into a War Game. I also get that a Colossal Army of warriors (2,000) is nearly half the population of Pitax the town, so it wouldn't make sense to have a lot of these armies running around.
Still...I have my 2nd edition Battlesystem books whose "basic" rules are very user-friendly but involve more tactics and dice rolling, as well as movement and morale/rallying. I'm pretty sure I can tinker everything except consumption, which is throwing me (at the moment).
My ninja went over to the fey, ending the game with the threats defeated and in training to multiclass into druid.
I heard about something called "War Machine" that several GMs used for their Kingmaker warfare. I modified the KM Mass Combat heavily, which still did not result in a properly long war. Mostly due to the combination of distances (short, very short) and the length of battles (FAR too short per phase).
Orthos: I'd say that the unit(s) he trains for dealing with the trolls' regeneration has a BP cost for the specialized equippage [masterwork weapons = includes acid and alchemists' fire] that denies the trolls their regeneration. Note that the regeneration applies per phase, so it is not as insurmountable as one might think.
Rules Cyclopedia War machine is great stuff. Used it for years in kingmaker type games, with some simplifying changes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Congratulations Magical_Beast! Well done and what a way to end 2012!
Your overall assessment of the AP is pretty similar to the one I posted when my group and I wrap up the campaign a few months ago.
As you say:
Its a sandbox for you as well as the PCs, don't be afraid to play in it.
:)
Go nuts, go crazy, both dm and players should adapt to eachother and try to have a lot of fun. Woot.
One of my players was very very big on pre-warfare prep, to a level of detail that the game just isn't meant to handle. Let me post one of his MASSIVE suggestion posts...
** spoiler omitted **...
Should have allowed him to use pig stomach acid.
Still plan to. He hasn't dropped the idea yet, and they do have pig farms.
Resources like that the system can handle. His tactics in detail less so.
|
|
I'm 75% done converting Battlesystem (2nd edition) to work with Pathfinder. After trying a battle or two with the 5th book, it's really kind of dull. Line up your armies and swing at one another. You hit/you miss. Battle is over. Kingdom is saved.
Players will get to roll more dice and combat will be much more dynamic to reward players for getting their kingdom this far. Flanking, positioning, morale, routing (as affecting other units), ranged attacks over friendly units, all come into play even with basic rules. I'm not sure I could figure out pig acid, though...
I'd just consider it normal acid damage, or perhaps up the die by one for the particular intensity.
I would be VERY interested in this system if you complete it!
Nice one Touc. I put together my own mass combat system once. Quite simple, somewhat robust, I had a lot of fun.
Each side (army) has up to five parts, flanks are covered in. Can call a full advance (three parts attack), can skirmish, can try to take flanks, pieces engage other pieces (keeping your army in one piece was a bad idea, but it does make it a tough chunk). It was about opposed dice rolling, a d6 infantry unit vs a d8 cav unit etc.
A few liked it, a few hated it (no we should be able to do more complex tactics, but of course, no plan survived contact with the enemy). It made it less about one roll, and more about a ten minute battle.
Talking to my players, it seems all but one (the one who posted the massive thing above... who, coincidentally, is the General) would rather scrap mass combat entirely, and just play up a "the PCs are elite shock troops who can take on armies of common soldiers singlehandedly" and not bother with the complexities of learning another combat system. Against more elite opponents' armies (such as Pitax) they'd rather bolster their party with the aid of similarly-elite NPCs (such as the combatant members of their council - everyone except Svetlana and Jhod, for my group) and followers from things like Leadership, then engage the opponents in a similar one-person-armies style.
As the only real change this makes is a scrapping of the mass combat rules and a change of the General's job from "train and lead armies" to "train the most elite, most physically and mentally adept, and most promising of our populace to be shock troopers on par with the rulers to back them up", it's actually a bit easier on me and them.
Good luck with the conversion regardless =)
Well the opportunity for glory is high, they are adopting an elite army idea, led by true heroes. Very heroic, risky against large numbers, risky against cav, risky against entrenched archers (your infantry guy takes twenty arrows).
But if they cause a lot of damage and a rout, wow their rep will go up.
I'm seeing a certain flame wave spell from Diablo being researched and deployed ASAFP...
aaaand the WHOLE PARTY going EK to get it! ^_____^
Not the red lightning of doom, my poor melee character!
Or the freezing Aura plus tiny space (frakin' Duriel.)
Yes I know my Diablo 2 references are dated...