How to calculate the cost when building unique magic items. (long post due to clarity and detail)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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For tldr's skip to (MY CURRENT UNDERSTANDING)

Starting on page 549 of core rule book.

Here we have some lovely rules to "do it yourself" item creation. Not really power you want to give your players lightly, but none the less the rules exist and I find some of the formulas less then clear, in particular the multipliers when stacking item abilities.

Now to be clear before we get started I am looking for rules lawyer and am not concerned with what is fair/O.P.

From what I can tell, there are two broad mechanics when dealing with multipliers.

1)Whether or not the items uses an official hero slot. (Head, neck, etc.)

2)How many abilities an item has. (Fireball 1/day and burning hands 3/day)

Pertinent rules Directly from page 549 and the Table on page 550.

RULE1
"Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities."

RULE2
"Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price."

On Table 15-29: Estimating magic item gold piece values

RULE3
No space limitation: multiply entire cost by 2

RULE4
Multiple different abilities: Multiply lower item cost by 1.5

***(MY CURRENT UNDERSTANDING)***
6 possibilities.

1)Slotted item with 1 ability.
Strait forward. No multipliers.

2)Slotted item with more then one ability (abilities are "Similar")
Rule1 only applies to unslotted items.
Rule4 states it is x1.5 for each ability beyond the most expensive
So only rule 4 applies. EZ

3)Slotted item with more then one ability (abilities are "Different")
Rule2 states each additional power is x1.5
Rule4 also states x1.5
I think its a little presumptuous to say rule 2 and 4 refer to the same rule.
So the first ability is normal price and additional abilities are x2.25

4)Unslotted item with 1 ability
Strait forward. x2 as per Rule3

5)Unslotted item with more then one ability (abilities are "Similar")
Rule1 states it gets a discount for its cheaper abilities
Rule3 states it is x2
If we add these rules together we get: X2 for the most expensive ability, x1.5 for the second most expensive ability, and normal price for further abilities. Fair enough.

6)Unslotted item with more then one ability (abilities are "Different")
Rule2 states no change(because it is unslotted)
Rule3 states it is x2
Rule4 states it is x1.5 for each ability beyond the most expensive
If we add these rules together we get x2 for the most expensive ability and x3 for all other abilities.

My questions!

1) Is rule 2 a more detailed version of rule 4?
One confusion is whether or not rule 2 and rule 4 are the same rule. They certainly seem similar, nearly identical, but rule two leaves unslotted items exempt. I can accept them as the same rule with community feedback and even more so with a paizo employee ruling. The only hard part to swallow is that slotless items are not penalized for multiple abilities...perhaps because of the default x2 cost?
Anyway a ruling on this effects possibility 3 and 6.

2) Are things like weapons, scrolls, and wands considered unslotted?
By the math they are clearly not unslotted as they don't cost x2. They also don't take up a hand slot since gauntlets can be used with a sword. It seems an implied wield slot exists for each hand. Just some simple nitpicking, but may as well ask while we are on the subject of being rules geeks.

3) What are the other benefits of unslotted items other then the obvious that it doesn't take up a slot? Would it be possible to activate a command word unslotted item from your backpack? would an unslotted gem of +2 int work from your backpack? To make things easier assume the item has to be attuned to the wielder(doesn't function until with the user for 24 hours, even though this drawback doesn't apply to wands and other "wielded" slot items.)

4) Which abilities are considered "Similar" and which are "Different?"
A detail of all the categories would be very helpful

5) What's an example of an item that requires a skill to use?
Can i just say this sword requires knowledge nature to use its magic missile spell and apply a 10% discount? Probably not, so what are a few examples? Try not to dismiss the question by simply stating the 10% rule is meant to help you value an item and isn't used as a crafting discount. This I know.

6) How do you apply the discount modifiers?
Racial restriction 30% Class restriction 30% skill restriction 10% if added they sum 70% reduction to create a special race item. Or if I do them one at a item, it reverse compounds 30% then 51%(for both 30's) then 55.9%(for 30,30 and 10% respectively)

Thank you very much if you made it this far! Your input will help me greatly as a GM who wants to create clear crafting rules for my advanced players, as well as allow for me to create some unique loot that will put sparkle back into the eyes of players who have done more then enough pathfinder "baal runs". (D2 ref.)

As a bonus for getting this far I will leave you with this thought,
consider it motivation.

A belt(slotted item) that adds +6 to all SIX of your stats costs 6x6x1000 (36,000) + 36,000 X 1.5 (54,000)x 5 (five other stats)
36 + 54 + 54 + 54 + 54 + 54 = 306,000 gold

an UNSLOTTED item that adds +6 to all SIX of your stats costs
6x6x1000 (36,000) x2(first ability) 72,000 + 36,000 X 1.5 (second ability) 54,000 + 36,000 X4 (4 more stats)
72 + 54 + 36 + 36 + 36 + 36 = 270,000 gold

:/ Save more then 10% by UNSLOTTING an item?

that's where my doubt began...

Godspeed to the brave community who help!

Shadow Lodge

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First, the item generation guideines are not fast rules. If you see something that looks odd (like the slotless +6 to all abilities being cheaper than the belt +6) then you are expected to adjust costs accordingly. When creating a new item, always look at existing items for comparison.

Quote:

1) Is rule 2 a more detailed version of rule 4?

One confusion is whether or not rule 2 and rule 4 are the same rule. They certainly seem similar, nearly identical, but rule two leaves unslotted items exempt. I can accept them as the same rule with community feedback and even more so with a paizo employee ruling. The only hard part to swallow is that slotless items are not penalized for multiple abilities...perhaps because of the default x2 cost?
Anyway a ruling on this effects possibility 3 and 6.

I believe that Rule 2 is in fact a more detailed version of Rule 4.

Reason: A Belt of Str +2 or Belt of Con +2 is 4K. A Belt of Physical Might (+2 Str, +2 Con) is 10K = 4K + 6K = 4K + 1.5(4K), not 4K + 2.25(4K) = 4K + 9 = 13K as would be the case if you were intended to stack Rule 2 and Rule 4.

The slotless items are not penalized for multiple abilities because of the x2. Also, unless you're getting a discount for "similar abilities" there's no advantage to putting multiple abilities on a slotless item rather than making a new slotless item (no slots are occupied in either case), whereas there is an advantage to putting multiple abilities on one slotted item (the multiple abilities only consume one slot rather than several or excluding each other by using the same slot).

Quote:

2) Are things like weapons, scrolls, and wands considered unslotted?

By the math they are clearly not unslotted as they don't cost x2. They also don't take up a hand slot since gauntlets can be used with a sword. It seems an implied wield slot exists for each hand. Just some simple nitpicking, but may as well ask while we are on the subject of being rules geeks.

My understanding is that there is indeed an unofficial "wielded slot" - items that must be held in hand to use are not more expensive than worn items because occupying a hand (and the necessity to retrieve held items, using a move action) is as limiting to the user as occupying a body slot would be.

Quote:
3) What are the other benefits of unslotted items other then the obvious that it doesn't take up a slot? Would it be possible to activate a command word unslotted item from your backpack? would an unslotted gem of +2 int work from your backpack? To make things easier assume the item has to be attuned to the wielder(doesn't function until with the user for 24 hours, even though this drawback doesn't apply to wands and other "wielded" slot items.)

The rulebook says "Typically the possession of such an item is enough to gain its benefit, but sometimes one must manipulate and activate the item." The phrase "possession" is a bit vague and might imply that the item could be left at home and still grant its benefit, but I think the intent is that the item actually has to be on the character's person. So if it's slotless and not an item that needs to be held or physically manipulated you can keep it anywhere on your person and it will grant its bonuses (such as +2 int). It's a bit unclear whether a command-word item must be held to be activated, but I would think not. It can 'hear' you from your belt pouch or backpack.

Quote:

4) Which abilities are considered "Similar" and which are "Different?"

A detail of all the categories would be very helpful

This one's a DM judgment call. Makes it a bit tricky unfortunately but the whole custom item rules require a bit of judgment. All I can do is offer my take:

Abilities with a similar theme or purpose are similar. Abilities granting Entangle 3/day and Plant Growth 1/day are similar because they both manipulate plants. A quiver that can cast abundant ammunition and versatile weapon has similar abilities because they both enhance the quiver's ammunition. A Natural Armour bonus and Stoneskin 1/day might be considered similar because they're both defenses against weapon attacks (and have a similar flavor), but that's pushing it a bit. +4 armour bonus to AC and +4 resistance to saves is probably not "similar" because they're defenses against different kinds of attack. The book uses "abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function" as examples of abilities that are definitely not similar - this would probably rule out the Natural Armour + Stoneskin combo as well.

The easiest way to avoid that issue with the slotless +6 all abilities being cheaper than the slotted +6 all abilities is to rule that +6 to an ability is not considered a similar ability and doesn't get the discount for such. The slotless +6 all abilities will then cost 72*6 = 432,000 gold, more than the belt.

Quote:

5) What's an example of an item that requires a skill to use?

Can i just say this sword requires knowledge nature to use its magic missile spell and apply a 10% discount? Probably not, so what are a few examples? Try not to dismiss the question by simply stating the 10% rule is meant to help you value an item and isn't used as a crafting discount. This I know.

You could tie Knowledge (Nature) to Magic Missile, but you'd have to flavour it. For example, you must speak the scientific name of your target to activate the magic missile, which requires a Knowledge check.

A good example is the Harp of Charming and similar magical instruments, which require Perform checks. Or the Amazing Tools of Manufacture, which require a minimum number of ranks in a specific craft skill.

Quote:

6) How do you apply the discount modifiers?

Racial restriction 30% Class restriction 30% skill restriction 10% if added they sum 70% reduction to create a special race item. Or if I do them one at a item, it reverse compounds 30% then 51%(for both 30's) then 55.9%(for 30,30 and 10% respectively)

I would avoid the issue by only applying one discount at a time. You can have an item that requires that the user be a dwarf or be a fighter but not an item that requires the user be a dwarf fighter - such an item would just be too restrictive to see general use, especially since you'd then be selling it at under crafting costs.

If you really want to stack them your numbers seem reasonable.


Thanks a lot for the quick response on a long post. I think i have the confirmations needed to move forwards surefootedly.

Silver Crusade

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Weirdo wrote:
I would avoid the issue by only applying one discount at a time. You can have an item that requires that the user be a dwarf or be a fighter but not an item that requires the user be a dwarf fighter - such an item would just be too restrictive to see general use, especially since you'd then be selling it at under crafting costs.

Lots of good avice there, except about this part: the discount for specific class/race is not meant to reduce the cost of crafting items. This discount is meant and intended to reduce the average value of items an adventurer may try to sell. This "drawback" is not a drawback at all and should provide you no benefit if you are an elven wizard and the item supposedly only works for elven wizards.

The best solution altogether to avoid breaking the game (something easy to do with item crafting, even more with custom item crafting) is simply to not provide any discount on the crafting price.

Shadow Lodge

Maxximilius wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
I would avoid the issue by only applying one discount at a time. You can have an item that requires that the user be a dwarf or be a fighter but not an item that requires the user be a dwarf fighter - such an item would just be too restrictive to see general use, especially since you'd then be selling it at under crafting costs.

Lots of good avice there, except about this part: the discount for specific class/race is not meant to reduce the cost of crafting items. This discount is meant and intended to reduce the average value of items an adventurer may try to sell. This "drawback" is not a drawback at all and should provide you no benefit if you are an elven wizard and the item supposedly only works for elven wizards.

The best solution altogether to avoid breaking the game (something easy to do with item crafting, even more with custom item crafting) is simply to not provide any discount on the crafting price.

Yes, the OP stated that he was aware of this and so am I - hence my statement about discounts resulting in selling an item for less than you crafted it for, which is impossible if the discount applies to your craft costs as well as the market value of the item.

The point is that an item with a restriction has a market value that is reduced because fewer people can use it. So an elven wizard making an item that only works for elves is going to be paying full craft cost (50% base price assuming no costly components) but selling at 70% base price rather than 100% base price, because there's less demand for an item that only works for elves. And if you stack the market value reductions to an item with multiple restrictions, you're looking at crafting an item for 50% base price and then also selling it at around 50% base price - or even slightly less! This is OK if you're an elven wizard making items for the exclusive use of your elven wizard organizaition, and don't want your rivals the gnome wizards or elven sorcerers to use your stuff, but not worth it for most crafters.

I'm not a huge fan of such restrictions in any case and think they should be used sparingly and mostly for flavor (or for items that specifically improve a particular class feature, which may or may not be useful if you lack that feature).

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