It always amazes me how little trust of the GM there is. Are there a few "my way or the highway" GMs? Yes. But I honestly believe this GM mentality arose in direct response to entitlement players. They are literally opposite sides of the same coin. Since it literally is one of the only ways to reign in such a disruptive player, it must have come from a GM beset by such players.
Since we have drifted far away from the OP now. How do you suggest dealing with entitlement players that doesn't involve "my way or the highway"? Compromise never works, and discussion only encourages them to be bigger problems. The only other way I can think of is to simply close your books and stop playing Pathfinder. But that hardly seems fair to the others.
This isn’t the DM’s idea. It is the idea of two of the players. There’s no “Player entitlement” going on here, it’s simply that two of the players want to try a 10 pt buy and the other two don’t.
The compromise is for both sets of players to play the point buy they are happy with, two players with 10 pt, two with 15 pt.
They are literally opposite sides of the same coin.No.
How do you suggest dealing with entitlement players that doesn't involve "my way or the highway"? Compromise never works, and discussion only encourages them to be bigger problems.It is not true that discussion and compromise never work; however, when they do not, you politely tell the player they are no longer welcome at your table. You then call recruit a new player into your group (if you so desire).
I understand this can be hard in smaller towns, but if you live in a city there will be plenty of resources for finding new players.
Thanks Whale Cancer for a reasonable response.
I am curious why you don't see them as opposite sides of the same coin. In each case the person in question player or GM has drawn a line in the sand and refuses to give in.Other than that you seem to be on the same page as I am... When discussion and compromise fail the only recourse is to kick the player out... which is just a slightly harsher stance than "my way or the highway" since you basically don't even give the problem player a choice... it's just "the highway" as the fix. I wonder which approach is better? Is it better to give the ultimatum or flatly kick them out. You might be right to just kick them. If they weren't being reasonable before then it's likely keeping them will just cause trouble.
Still in the case of a small player pool things do get rather hard. Kicking out the problem players may leave you with a smaller group than was intended. A skilled GM can find a way to re-balance for the smaller group but a newer one may have difficulties.
established gaming group?
What's that? we played the last game, so i 'expect' to play in this one? That's really odd.
If we ride snowmobiles we don't always ride with the same dudes (or chicks in some cases)
Hey man want to ride? Nah gotta work...
blah blah blah.
Just because one campaign has started doesnt mean you are going to be in the next one. (or even want to)
And the game hasn't started until the characters are created, and since we are talking about character creation, i dont see how you can assume the GM just 'dropped' this on the players.
As far as giving a 15 pt build but with no negative stats how is that less restrictive than a 10 pt build?
We can certainly get back to this OP easily as we havent strayed far.
a 7 Int isn't dim whited, a 7 might mean the character is uneducated. a Player might want to play the character as illiterate. he doesn't have to walk around saying "BoB Smash" to every situation.
7 isn't THAT dumb.
PF has pointed out that they think 4 int is a simpleton.
That gives you 5,6,7,8 to be between simpleton and average.
That being said a 7 int character might simply be narrow minded and think ONE certain way (the best way to solve EVERYTHING is through violence, or ALL ELVES are evil and traitorous and can't be trusted! or perhaps EVERY boat will sink and be caught in a wild storm, but bob.... this is just a river....a STORM i tell you! a STORM!)
a 7 wis just means this guy isn't perceptive, he doesnt catch innuendoes, misses the fact the bar maid is hitting on him, and isn't vey subtle himself, he DOES tell his wife that dress makes her look fat, OFTEN.
7 Cha. Just means you aren't likable, or particularly convincing. You could be the smartest wizard in the world, but can't convince the peasants a dragon is coming to burn down the town, your story just doesn't sound believable.
Depending on how your skill points are spread, you might invest in skills to offset the fact that while you are very believable (plenty of points in diplomacy or bluff) you are timid and appear weak (no investment in intimidate)
a person with a 9 str isn't that much weaker than a person with a 10, neither is a person with a 11 that much stronger.
No one is easily going to notice you swing your longsword weaker than most people. Perhaps maybe a trained sword master, but not most people.
The same goes for mental stats. Every kid in class has at least a 10 int, except you, you have a 9. Means you have more grades that are C's and D's than B's. The kids with the 10 will have more B's and the ones with 12's and 13's will have mostly A's.
Kids with an 8 int might struggle with certain subjects, but they might not be dumb, maybe they just cant focus? A kid with an 8 int, might grow up to be a "man of actions" enough of this talk, just kill the dragon, I dont care what color it is!
IF it high wisdom = wise, then a low wisdom = foolish?
Dude, you didn't see that door? It WAS RIGHT there!
I've got a kid who you might describe as having a high wisdom.... she can perceive the tiniest detail. But maybe she has a low Cha, because she can't relate to you what she's perceiving.
"It's right there! can't you see it?"
"what? whats there"
"RIGHT there!" (pointing fingers a lot)
"Where, show me"
"There!"
it's actually ceased to be frustrating, because through experience of going through this for years, you KNOW she can actually see something you aren't noticing... so with patience you will eventually see the lady bug on the red truck bed that is 20 feet away, or the tick on the back of a black dog, that is imperceptibly moving. (both true stories she can see stuff like that)
Clerics have high wisdoms (or should) because the workings of the divine are subtle and lost on those who aren't paying attention.
Does that mean she has a low CHA because she can't communicate what she sees? OR maybe she has a 10 cha and no points in any cha skills?
It always amazes me how little trust of the GM there is. Are there a few "my way or the highway" GMs? Yes. But I honestly believe this GM mentality arose in direct response to entitlement players. They are literally opposite sides of the same coin. Since it literally is one of the only ways to reign in such a disruptive player, it must have come from a GM beset by such players.
Since we have drifted far away from the OP now. How do you suggest dealing with entitlement players that doesn't involve "my way or the highway"? Compromise never works, and discussion only encourages them to be bigger problems. The only other way I can think of is to simply close your books and stop playing Pathfinder. But that hardly seems fair to the others.
This isn’t the DM’s idea. It is the idea of two of the players. There’s no “Player entitlement” going on here, it’s simply that two of the players want to try a 10 pt buy and the other two don’t.
The compromise is for both sets of players to play the point buy they are happy with, two players with 10 pt, two with 15 pt.
So those who demand more get more?
That's not a compromise, that's two people playing by a different set of rules.
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I fail to see any closeness.
Go back and look again. See Str as the easiest.
10 Str is average, and it pretty well lines up with what the average person with light exercise can do. They can carry 30 or so pounds with no issues, 66 or so with a bit of effort, and up to 100 by straining. That's not unreasonable. They can lift up to 100 pounds over their head, lift 200 off the ground (not carry it, lift it up), and drag 500 with effort and a good grip.
11's a little stronger, that's the guy who works out just a little more than Mr. Average Joe there with 10. 12 is where the first modifier comes in. This man is at the minimum level of "physically fit", being able to lift a good bit more than the average person, though not by a huge amount.
Skip ahead to 14, which is about the physique of an athlete of some sort that doesn't focus solely on strength training. With a little effort, they can lift weight up to (and slightly beyond) what the average person would strain to bear.
16 is the physique of something like a strength centric athlete, something like a football player. Somewhat stronger than the probable baseball or tennis player in the previous example.
18 is about the peak of normal human strength, something like a dedicated weight lifter or Olympic level athlete. They can easily lift weight the average person would strain to lift, and can lift double the weight with a little effort than the average person can, whereas while straining they can lift a whopping 3 times the average person's strain weight.
After 18, however, every stat leave "peak human" capability and transcends into the superhuman spectrum, which leads some people to go "But the stats are so unrealistic ALL THE TIME!" when they're really not.
It always amazes me how little trust of the GM there is. Are there a few "my way or the highway" GMs? Yes. But I honestly believe this GM mentality arose in direct response to entitlement players. They are literally opposite sides of the same coin. Since it literally is one of the only ways to reign in such a disruptive player, it must have come from a GM beset by such players.
Since we have drifted far away from the OP now. How do you suggest dealing with entitlement players that doesn't involve "my way or the highway"? Compromise never works, and discussion only encourages them to be bigger problems. The only other way I can think of is to simply close your books and stop playing Pathfinder. But that hardly seems fair to the others.
This isn’t the DM’s idea. It is the idea of two of the players. There’s no “Player entitlement” going on here, it’s simply that two of the players want to try a 10 pt buy and the other two don’t.
The compromise is for both sets of players to play the point buy they are happy with, two players with 10 pt, two with 15 pt.
DrDeth this isn't about the OP's group anymore. That was resolved... as far as I know no ultimatum was needed and the players built their 10PB characters without any further fuss. So "my way or the highway" was never employed here and there is no evidence they were entitlement players. They may have even got a nice compromise though we don't know anymore since the OP ran away from the thread.
In our current game, in the beginning we had a halfling rogue with a 7 Dex.
I am not kidding.
I had a half elf thief in a dark sun game with a 9 dex, back then that was the minimum score to be a thief. I rolled lousy and we already had a fighter...
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Rynjin it's the holiday season. I have been eating too much since Thanksgiving and haven't been keeping up with my exercise. My strength by the chart is probably between 8 or 9 right now. When I hit the gym for a few weeks after my new years resolutions my strength will be 12 again by the chart. An old man that can barely move a 100 pound easy chair when confronted with a small child trapped under a 1000 pound concrete pipe easily lifted the pipe to rescue the child. Once I got in an argument with football players... I was a cheerleader and was bragging about how strong girls are compared to boys. To prove my point I lifted a full set of leg extensions on the maximum weight of the machine plus two football players and proved I was stronger on the leg machine than any boy was. I couldn't duplicate the effect when I needed to use arm strength but clearly by those rules I shouldn't have been able to do that with a strength of 12. Real people don't match up to game statistics... they simply don't.
It always amazes me how little trust of the GM there is. Are there a few "my way or the highway" GMs? Yes. But I honestly believe this GM mentality arose in direct response to entitlement players. They are literally opposite sides of the same coin. Since it literally is one of the only ways to reign in such a disruptive player, it must have come from a GM beset by such players.
Since we have drifted far away from the OP now. How do you suggest dealing with entitlement players that doesn't involve "my way or the highway"? Compromise never works, and discussion only encourages them to be bigger problems. The only other way I can think of is to simply close your books and stop playing Pathfinder. But that hardly seems fair to the others.
This isn’t the DM’s idea. It is the idea of two of the players. There’s no “Player entitlement” going on here, it’s simply that two of the players want to try a 10 pt buy and the other two don’t.
The compromise is for both sets of players to play the point buy they are happy with, two players with 10 pt, two with 15 pt.
DrDeth this isn't about the OP's group anymore. That was resolved... as far as I know no ultimatum was needed and the players built their 10PB characters without any further fuss. So "my way or the highway" was never employed here and there is no evidence they were entitlement players. They may have even got a nice compromise though we don't know anymore since the OP ran away from the thread.
My posts were always about the OP. We have too many threads devolve off into “Entitled players” vs “Controlling DMs”. There is no need to hijack this into yet another of those.
Rynjin it's the holiday season. I have been eating too much since Thanksgiving and haven't been keeping up with my exercise. My strength by the chart is probably between 8 or 9 right now. When I hit the gym for a few weeks after my new years resolutions my strength will be 12 again by the chart. An old man that can barely move a 100 pound easy chair when confronted with a small child trapped under a 1000 pound concrete pipe easily lifted the pipe to rescue the child. Once I got in an argument with football players... I was a cheerleader and was bragging about how strong girls are compared to boys. To prove my point I lifted a full set of leg extensions on the maximum weight of the machine plus two football players and proved I was stronger on the leg machine than any boy was. I couldn't duplicate the effect when I needed to use arm strength but clearly by those rules I shouldn't have been able to do that with a strength of 12. Real people don't match up to game statistics... they simply don't.
If you have to shift the scenario to extraordinary circumstances to "disprove" what I'm saying then you've effectively proved my point.
ON AVERAGE a real person will line up with those. ON AVERAGE that man would not have been able to lift that pipe (though where you got this 1000 lb pipe lifting story I have no idea). ON AVERAGE people don't talk about lifting things with their feet, unless you're some odd person who walks around carrying backpacks full of goods strapped to your ankles.
No, the game does not account for adrenaline surges. It does not have to. It is an indication of what a person can do ON AVERAGE without any modifying factors, and you have as far as I can tell agreed with me up until you decided to be argumentative and go "Yeah well this one time..."
People according to game stats can't change their scores from week to week. High strength people in real life can't chop through a steel door with a steak knife... in the game they can. Do you need even more examples? I can probably be killed with a single knife stab. Yet to achieve the vast amount of skills a real person has at a level low enough to be worried about a knife you would have to set all the human population well above 20 Int.
1.) Which is where it breaks down. Never said it was perfect, just said the basic stuff (lift and carry weight) was pretty solid.
2.) You can also not be killed with a single knife stab, depending on where it hits your vitals (in game that's a crit). Remember, these stats are for level 1 PCs/NPCs with a fairly low point buy, so a knife stab/crit is still a definite danger.
3.) Actually no. Remember, skill levels are determined by attributes as well as points. Having one rank in a class skill with a decent Attribute mod means you're pretty damn good at something and are trained to do it. Your average person has one rank in Kn. Local, Religion, History, and Geography, but makes most skill checks (Climb, Swim, Perception, and the like) completely untrained. It's not perfect but I think Skills actually line up better than stats do.
Just wanted to give everyone an update on the situation.
The players and the DM discussed the issue further and we all came to a civilized conclusion.
We decided on 15 point buy but to avoid power gaming, as some of our players are known for(myself being guilty of it as well), we cannot drop a stat lower than 8 as the extra 2 points gained by going from an 8 to a 7 was the source of the problem, or so we concluded.
Thank you all for your positive and negative feedback, it definitely helped us come to our final verdict.
Just wanted to give everyone an update on the situation.
The players and the DM discussed the issue further and we all came to a civilized conclusion.
We decided on 15 point buy but to avoid power gaming, as some of our players are known for(myself being guilty of it as well), we cannot drop a stat lower than 8 as the extra 2 points gained by going from an 8 to a 7 was the source of the problem, or so we concluded.Thank you all for your positive and negative feedback, it definitely helped us come to our final verdict.
Excellent compromise, and in fact I have suggested to Paizo that the extra 2 points gained by going to a 7 be dropped.
what does it make it too juicy?
what does it make it too juicy?
Basically.
Speaking for myself I feel that the extra 2 points gained can be too tempting not to take. "Well, my wisdom is already an 8, how bad can a 7 be?", then you proceed to dump wis in order to gain more powerful core stats for whatever class you're playing. I feel like its a trap and that the rewards for dumping a stat like that is much too high.
This reminds me of a small telling event I was a part of.
Joining a PF game, genning up a character, opted to roll instead of point buy. The dm was the type that never had a char with low dex, wis or con, I am sure you can understand why esteemed and knowledgeable reader.
Rolled those dice and got a few results. Settled on one. Told the dm I had rolled one set that was higher than the one I choose, but it was too high, the character would have been too good. Dm was stumped, thought I was crazy. Well Skadi the scout didn't need to be superhuman. I ended up taking a lowish con and dex, relying on feats and mobility to stay alive in combat, and having a ball outside of combat. Who knows if I taught the dm something, that not every character has to have the same ability scores (this chap's spellcasters were always the same, high spellcasting stat, good dex, good con, yawn).
Your words seem drenched with narcissistic self righteousness.
You put forth your preferences as though they made you simply a better gamer, roleplayer, and person, than those who do not share them.You seem to gloat, and put forth a feeling of superiority over those whose tastes differ.
Painting a picture of those who prefer higher point buys as cackling neck-beards, focused on only powergaming is not only incorect, but hurtful and not needed.
If I am misreading your words, then I apologize.
In the end, no one's game style preferences that are "wrong".
We all need to just accept it.
You are a funny guy, I like you!
I've seen what I've seen. I have even asked other friends that were there, did I actually see that? Yes they said, you did. Narcissistic self righteousness is a nice hard hitting end to a sentence, it would sound good if delivered well in a drama. Unfortunately, this is just about actual witnessed facts in the games I am specifically talking about.
Rynjin it's the holiday season. I have been eating too much since Thanksgiving and haven't been keeping up with my exercise. My strength by the chart is probably between 8 or 9 right now. When I hit the gym for a few weeks after my new years resolutions my strength will be 12 again by the chart. An old man that can barely move a 100 pound easy chair when confronted with a small child trapped under a 1000 pound concrete pipe easily lifted the pipe to rescue the child. Once I got in an argument with football players... I was a cheerleader and was bragging about how strong girls are compared to boys. To prove my point I lifted a full set of leg extensions on the maximum weight of the machine plus two football players and proved I was stronger on the leg machine than any boy was. I couldn't duplicate the effect when I needed to use arm strength but clearly by those rules I shouldn't have been able to do that with a strength of 12. Real people don't match up to game statistics... they simply don't.
Yeeep, some also work on their triceps and other muscles used to attack and defend with appropriate conditioning, so they hit like hammers, but aren't great at lifting and carrying.
I fail to see any closeness.Go back and look again. See Str as the easiest.
10 Str is average, and it pretty well lines up with what the average person with light exercise can do. They can carry 30 or so pounds with no issues, 66 or so with a bit of effort, and up to 100 by straining. That's not unreasonable. They can lift up to 100 pounds over their head, lift 200 off the ground (not carry it, lift it up), and drag 500 with effort and a good grip.
11's a little stronger, that's the guy who works out just a little more than Mr. Average Joe there with 10. 12 is where the first modifier comes in. This man is at the minimum level of "physically fit", being able to lift a good bit more than the average person, though not by a huge amount.
Skip ahead to 14, which is about the physique of an athlete of some sort that doesn't focus solely on strength training. With a little effort, they can lift weight up to (and slightly beyond) what the average person would strain to bear.
16 is the physique of something like a strength centric athlete, something like a football player. Somewhat stronger than the probable baseball or tennis player in the previous example.
18 is about the peak of normal human strength, something like a dedicated weight lifter or Olympic level athlete. They can easily lift weight the average person would strain to lift, and can lift double the weight with a little effort than the average person can, whereas while straining they can lift a whopping 3 times the average person's strain weight.
After 18, however, every stat leave "peak human" capability and transcends into the superhuman spectrum, which leads some people to go "But the stats are so unrealistic ALL THE TIME!" when they're really not.
It is such a different game if the average stats is 13 compared to the average stat being 16+.
For those interested, Sean talks about what various point values in attributes are meant to represent in PF. The gist of it is that for every 5 points, you're twice as good / bad.
Something I always like pointing out to people who tank their charisma is that a choker has a 7 charisma.
Yes, you are as charismatic as a 'hunched-over wretch' that climbs around in caves all day waiting to strangle and eat people.
Excellent compromise, and in fact I have suggested to Paizo that the extra 2 points gained by going to a 7 be dropped.
That's overkill, in my opinion. Minmaxing is only really a problem when taken to extremes. If the player fails to roleplay a low score, that's not a minmaxing issue--that's a problem with low stats with that particular player.
In fact, pretty much every issue brought up here is a player issue, not a game issue. Which is why I don't think you should suggest the game be changed--if your players are abusing point buy, don't use point buy, or use that house rule (and I'm sure you do, so no bad there). But that's your issue, not the game's. Making suggestions to Paizo is unnecessary.
I actually considered running a duergar with 6 charisma in our next campaign. If I'd have done it, I would have reflected this by hurling venom enriched spiteful insults whenever I open my mouth to talk to someone, easing up on the other party members once I've earned their trust.
However, if I was presented with the idea of a 10 point buy game, I would politely pass, no hard feelings. I feel like my hands are tied behind my back when it comes to building character concepts with a 20 point buy in this system. So to me, it's not worth the headache.