Detect magic ALLOWS you to make a Spellcraft check to identify the properties of a magic item. Identify spell gives you a +10 on that check.
You still need to make a spellcraft check, detect magic does not just give you the properties without a roll.
Spellcraft also lets you understand active magic and effects, not just magic items.
Weird fountain with glowing water? Make a Spellcraft check to figure out what it does.
Magical wall of fire? Make a Spellcraft check to figure out if it's permanent, has a magical fuel source, or if it has a duration.
Spellcraft is a weak skill, though, and partly because we deliberately made it easier to identify magic items in the Beginner Box.
I think all those cases would use Knowledge:Arcana, not Spellcraft...
Spellcraft seems to be just for spell CASTING (/scribing/crafting/etc) and Detect Magic/Identify.
(non-BB) Detect Magic uses BOTH Know:Arcana and Spellcraft, the first for auras/school,
the second for specific details of items (and ongoing spells? e.g. Alter Self?).
The conceptual overlap between these skills is one of the things where I wish skill consolidation had gone further in Pathfinder. Besides rolling both skills when using Detect Magic, you can conceivably roll them both to ID a spell whenever somebody casts one (possibly multiple usages of Know:Arcana).
When somebody casts a spell: Spellcraft (ID spell as cast), Arcana (ID spells cast with specific components*), Arcana (ID spell effect in place/that targetted you). Hey, you're gonna roll high eventually 8-)
* which can narrow it down to one spell if no other spells use those components, or you can rule out one other spell if it wouldn't make sense for them to cast in that situation
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Why should they put ranks in Spellcraft using the variant BB rules?
Well, for ID'ing spells/SLA's that are cast that A) don't target the player (Arcana does that), B) don't have a visible effect (Arcana does that), or C) either don't have material components or use common components shared with many spells so you can't narrow down what spell it is.
ID'ing spells cast is useful, even if it's invisible spells that aren't directly targetting you (e.g. if an enemy casts Sanctuary, your attack might be better spent on a different target, similar for Protection from Energy/Good making some spells not a good choice), just knowing what the enemy is doing is an advantage... but in MANY cases Knowledge:Arcana is really pretty much just as good, AND has other usages to boot (about Dragons, Constructs, Ancient Mysteries, etc).
In the normal Pathfinder game, Spellcraft has the advantage that it happens during Casting, so if you want to Counter-Spell you need it (kind of, excepting Dispel), and even Fighter types benefit from knowing what spell their enemy is casting when deciding if they want to spend their AoO disrupting it or save the AoO for something else. Except if you CAN ID the spell from components, you should know that when they pull the components out, before finishing casting, so you SHOULD be able to interrupt casting with knowledge of what spell they are casting (if you can infer that from the components).
...But if you're playing BB rules, I'd say don't bother putting ranks into it.
The only reason might be if somebody (like a Ranger) has Spellcraft as a Class Skill but not Knowledge:Arcana, so for the ID'ing spells usage they might as well go for Spellcraft there, and gain the +3 bonus. If that is their prime motivator, and not the other usages of Know:Arcana. Also, using the 'Spell Component' aspect of Knowledge:Arcana to ID/'narrow down' spells can be a pain in the ass (needing to look up what spells use those components), which may mean that your GM says you can't do that :-), in which case Spellcraft is slightly more useful... even if visible spells/spells that target you are still ID'able by Know:Arcana.
I'd probably do that, too. :)
I thought I had this figured out, but alas, this discussion just added to my BB confusion. So allow me to paraphrase and someone say Yay/Nay.
Spellcraft (INT): Understand magic effects and spells. All examples depict IDENTIFYING something imbued with magic.
Knowledge (Arcane): know things about symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts.
They seem distinct enough for me. With Knowledge I don't have to be a Wizard to tell you about them; there history, who first made one, etc. I would need Spellcraft to identify what magic it takes to reproduce it, and actually reproduce it, correct?
Or that's how I read it. Yay/Nay?
Best,
TB
That works for me. :)
Uh... Nay. (if you're talking about what the rules actually state)
See my last post on other stuff that Know:Arcana does. It's in the skill description as well.
Yeah, I think combining them is probably a good idea... As is, there are several abilities used to increase the DC (or just make impossible) the Spellcraft check to ID a spell you are Casting... But per RAW, that does NOTHING for Knowledge:Arcana which can also ID the spell during Casting (components) or afterwards. The former should definitely be rolled into Spellcraft, the latter (recognizing the effects after it's cast) is reasonable to allow a distinct check from/ not allow Spell Bluff to conceal their effect (if they hit you with a Fireball, you should know, and likewise if they cast Stoneskin, you should be able to roll normally even if their Casting was non-standard).
Unfortunately, there will be alot of corner-case GM calls due to all the specific little rules that intereact with the 2 different skills (as I alluded to above), but it should still be reasonable to combine them... you can even allow some 'situational' modifiers (such as Spell Bluff) to apply to one USAGE of combined Spellcraft-Arcana just like there are bonuses which only affect Jump and not other usages of Acrobatics.
Quandary, are you discussing Beginner Box or Core? Seems you are mixing and matching at times, but it could be from my limited Wizardly play of BB. There is terribly little in the skill description in BB, in fact I pretty much quoted it, but Core may have alot more inconsistencies. I wouldn't know because I don't play it (Core).
For me it just boils down to, for BB, if a non-wizard could learn it, it falls into Knowledge. If a non-wizard couldn't learn it, its Spellcraft. But sure, you could boil them together, just depends on what you like I suppose.
I consider Spellcraft the skill of combining/using magic, and effect base skill. Like being able to correctly infuse magic into the ingredients into a health potion. Knowledge: Arcane could tell you what ingredients to combine, or were combined. But, without Spellcraft it would just be a smoothy.
But again, a case could be made for combining each or leaving them individual skills IMHO.
Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear,
with the OP (xris) discussing porting over some rules for Spellcraft into the BB (to use with Detect Magic),
it became overly vague what exactly was being discussed.
Yes, in the BB rules, Arcana doesn't have to do with magic spells/effects, just 'arcane symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts'.
Per the same rules, Spellcraft doesn't apply to magic effects apart from casting or magic items, so in the BB rules,
there is NO skill check to recognize ongoing spell effects or spells that target you (that you didn't see cast), although Arcana does that in the Core Rules.
The only way to ID on-going spell effects using BB rules is thru the Detect Magic spell, and you only gain that info on the 3rd round of concentration.
Using the BB rules, you CAN use Spellcraft WITHOUT Detect Magic to identify magic items (unlike Core Rules), Detect Magic just makes it auto-succeed (after 3 rounds concentration). That in itself can make it very useful for non-Casters to put ranks into, if you don't have many (or any) Casters in your party.
BTW, anybody CAN learn Spellcraft (not just Wizards/Casters), and use that to ID spells as they are cast (in CRB, Know:Arcana also allows checks vs. ongoing effects after they are cast, as well as when you are targetted by an effect), which I think is great, you don't need to be a Caster to learn to recognize how different spells are cast differently, or the specifics of their effects, and that knowledge can be very useful for Martials in a Caster's world... Knowing your enemy, if you will. In the CRB there is a major difference in Caster vs. Non-Caster Spellcraft, in that you need Detect Magic/Identify/etc to pick up magic item details, but BB did away with that requirement.
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If XRIS does want to import the Core Rule function of Detect Magic/Spellcraft (roll, not automatic), then it would make sense to also import the Identify spell, which gives a hefty bonus to the check (although it still takes 3 rounds, while mundane Spellcraft can ID items with no spell support, possibly in 1 round (?) though it doesn't say so).
Quandary, Okay, I get where you are coming from now. I read the OP differently, and then add in my confusion of where you were speaking of CRB and where you were talking BB, I got really confused.
I didn't read the OP as how to bring in CRB concepts, but how to explain BB concepts, from the standpoint of a CRB GM to new players. Hence my original reply, where I said this,
"Spellcraft (INT): Understand magic effects and spells. All examples depict IDENTIFYING something imbued with magic.
Knowledge (Arcane): know things about symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts."
With the confusion, I realize why I like my BB set! Maybe one day I will graduate, but doubtful.
Best, and thanks for clearing that up for me Quandary,
TB
Sure thing, I ALSO think the BB has something going for it in this area, Core Rule Detect Magic using BOTH Arcana and Spellcraft is bonkers!
If identifying high level auras (schools) is a concern (in the Core Rules, not BB),
that can still be based off one check, with auras just at a lesser (but still scaling) DC than the specific spells.
Illusion Auras should really require checks just to perceive at all (with Detect Magic),
currently not the case (even if you don't know it's Illusion school without passing a check).
...I would also want to allow Spellcraft to ID ongoing effects/spells and those that target you (like Arcana does in CRB, and SKR thought Spellcraft did in BB), although it should probably say that you don't get second checks if you failed the check while Casting.
That, and the magic-less ID'ing of items seems a bit too much, so I would put back in the requirement to use Detect Magic for that, probably putting back the roll as well (although I can see why both of those aspects are appealing to beginners).
I'd probably add 'arcane magical theory and arcane magic-focused organizations' to Know:Arcana as well.
EDIT: I would miss some things if the broad, Spellcraft-overlapping functions of Know:Arcana were removed, namely the convenience for low-skill characters to get both a broadly useful Knowledge skill AND be able to ID many spells, especially for Dragon Disciples who have Know:Arcana as a Pre-Requisite and anybody taking Skill Focus:Know(Arcana) to qualify for Eldritch Heritage:Arcane BL.