Force Cage: Reflex Negates

[Lyarie]

A reflex save supposedly negates the effects of a force cage. I can't wrap my head around how a medium creature in the middle of a 20x20 area could negate being enclosed in a cage with a reflex save. Do they get shunted 10ft out of the effected area? Does their amazing reflexize ability so distract the caster that the spell fizzles? Are they so dextrous that they can slip through the bars of force?

[cwslyclgh]

it is a game mechanic designed to limit the power of the spell so that a caster with it doesn't always just automatically win. give it any fluff you want.

[Pinky's Brain]

It can't be fixed by fluff, it's broken as written ... houserule it into something sane.

Easiest solutions seems to just use the 3e version, second easiest to say you can catch on to the sides as it forms and get shunted outside ... add some flavour text to say it forms around you and then expands to not make it completely unbelievable for small creatures.

[Stome]

So? A rogue in a 15X15 room can somehow not be hurt by a fireball that hits every inch of the room.

Balance mechanics > Fluff. Its a game.

-edit- Also this isn't a rules question. The rules are 100% clear. You disliking it is a opinion thing or house rule thing.

[Pinky's Brain]

Stome wrote:

So? A rogue in a 15X15 room can somehow not be hurt by a fireball that hits every inch of the room.

The fireball doesn't remain ...

Quote:

-edit- Also this isn't a rules question. The rules are 100% clear. You disliking it is a opinion thing or house rule thing.

I simply understand the problem the OP is facing ... the force cage is an area spell, not a target one (it can catch multiple creatures for instance). So the fizzle approach doesn't work, regardless of saves there is going to be a box or a cage there made of bars or walls of force.

You're either in or you're out ... if a save means you're not inside then you need rules for what happens to get you outside, the rules are not in the spell description ... so houserules.

[LazarX]

Lyarie wrote:

A reflex save supposedly negates the effects of a force cage. I can't wrap my head around how a medium creature in the middle of a 20x20 area could negate being enclosed in a cage with a reflex save. Do they get shunted 10ft out of the effected area? Does their amazing reflexize ability so distract the caster that the spell fizzles? Are they so dextrous that they can slip through the bars of force?

It means that they're outside the cage, how they get there is not important.

[Pinky's Brain]

Do they get a choice which side? Is it up to the DM? Roll a dX?

This spell can not be consistently ruled based purely on what's written ...

[leandro redondo]

Maybe, like the wall of force spell, forcecage needs to be unbroken to be formed. This reflex save means you could put your arm, a weapon or whatever while it's forming and partially or completely prevent it from coalesce. Obviously, it would mean that the force cage it's destroyed ( again, partially at least), but it's a solution to the pesky question on extra movement actions ( even when you are out of them) to avoid it.

[Pinky's Brain]

It's not single target, the general rule for area spells is individual saves. You can rule something like "if one creature inside the force cage saves the spell fizzle" ... but it's a houserule.

[meabolex]

The spell doesn't fizzle unless a creature inside is too big.

Reflex negates means:

PRD wrote:

Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.

So I guess it means the reflex save allows a creature to dive out of the effect. While this is hard to imagine in the 20x20 cell, it's the only way it could work. I'd say you'd have to move to the closest side -- you couldn't dive 20 feet to get out one side when all you needed was 5 feet to get out of an adjacent side.

[Lyarie]

I'm just being difficult in this case, but what if there is no safe space outside the cage to dive to? Perhaps I'm surrounded by a sea of acid or walls on 3 sides and a 1000ft drop on the other side?

[PSusac]

This nerf is just stupid, evil and wrong. A 7th level spell that doesn't damage you and doesn't incapacitate you but takes you out of combat should NOT get a save! If your 13th+ level character can't handle that, then he should go home.

This spell and Disjunction really need to be un-nerfed! Both spells were nerfed without considering the implications of the nerf.

BAD, BAD PAIZO! <smacks nose with rolled-up newspaper>

[Nicos]

If aouto-win can not handle a bit of nerf then they should go home.

[Jokem]

Stome wrote:

So? A rogue in a 15X15 room can somehow not be hurt by a fireball that hits every inch of the room.

Balance mechanics > Fluff. Its a game.

-edit- Also this isn't a rules question. The rules are 100% clear. You disliking it is a opinion thing or house rule thing.

I assume you are talking about a Rogue's Evasion Class Ability.

My theory on that is most area of effect spells do not cover every spot on every five foot square they manifest in. That is - a fireball shoots out gout's of flame and streamers with gaps in between.

A rogue has learned to dodge between these.

[Jokem]

PSusac wrote:

This nerf is just stupid, evil and wrong. A 7th level spell that doesn't damage you and doesn't incapacitate you but takes you out of combat should NOT get a save! If your 13th+ level character can't handle that, then he should go home.

This spell and Disjunction really need to be un-nerfed! Both spells were nerfed without considering the implications of the nerf.

BAD, BAD PAIZO! <smacks nose with rolled-up newspaper>

I don't agree. The barred version of this allows spells to be cast through the bars, so without a ranged attack the victim can get shot down in increments. Say by a subsequent casting of Acid Fog...

[Kayerloth]

Note that the cage either the smaller windowless version or the large barred cage can be damaged and destroyed by both physical (but have to deal with Hardness) and magical attack (i.e can be damaged by spells as normal). This is a weakness in the spell introduced by PF (same for Wall of Force). Acid Fog or a dragon's breath weapon is going to damage the cage unless I'm having a brain issue.

Quote:

This nerf is just stupid, evil and wrong. A 7th level spell that doesn't damage you and doesn't incapacitate you but takes you out of combat should NOT get a save! If your 13th+ level character can't handle that, then he should go home.

In general all spells allow a save or other mechanism to allow the unwilling victim(s) to escape or avoid the full effects. Even Wish generally allows an unwilling target a save. The level of a spell has very little to do with whether a target gets a save where spell design is concerned. The granting of saving throws against an effect is a very core concept that has existed from the earliest days of the game. If anything the earlier version violated this concept though I do agree it was hardly overpowered or unbalancing to allow none.

[Jokem]

Kayerloth wrote:

Note that the cage either the smaller windowless version or the large barred cage can be damaged and destroyed by both physical (but have to deal with Hardness) and magical attack (i.e can be damaged by spells as normal). This is a weakness in the spell introduced by PF (same for Wall of Force). Acid Fog or a dragon's breath weapon is going to damage the cage unless I'm having a brain issue.

Quote:

This nerf is just stupid, evil and wrong. A 7th level spell that doesn't damage you and doesn't incapacitate you but takes you out of combat should NOT get a save! If your 13th+ level character can't handle that, then he should go home.

In general all spells allow a save or other mechanism to allow the unwilling victim(s) to escape or avoid the full effects. Even Wish generally allows an unwilling target a save. The level of a spell has very little to do with whether a target gets a save where spell design is concerned. The granting of saving throws against an effect is a very core concept that has existed from the earliest days of the game. If anything the earlier version violated this concept though I do agree it was hardly overpowered or unbalancing to allow none.

Hmmm - Does the 30 hardness count against spells, based upon the description it is not clear. In any case, ranged attacks can be sent through the bars, and eventually bring a trapped creature down.