Goblin Squad Member
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Bounty Boards are a two-edged sword. It's important to realize that John Doe might end up on the board accused of being a griefer even though Goblinworks has already listened to the complaint and decided that his actions were acceptable. If a bunch of players then target John Doe thinking that he's fair game because he's a griefer, those players might end up being rightly accused of griefing for consistently targeting him.
I think it will be better all around to use the in-game Bounty system.
I do believe your proposal has already been created to some extent.Checking myself now, but do you have a source? I'm very interested, and thank you for the tip!
here you go
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9rt?Tonys-Blog-A-Player-Made-Solution-To-Boun ty#18
so aparently i do not know how to make a fancy link but if you copy and paste that it works just fine.
Bounty Boards are a two-edged sword. It's important to realize that John Doe might end up on the board accused of being a griefer even though Goblinworks has already listened to the complaint and decided that his actions were acceptable. If a bunch of players then target John Doe thinking that he's fair game because he's a griefer, those players might end up being rightly accused of griefing for consistently targeting him.
I think it will be better all around to use the in-game Bounty system.
Nihimon has a very good point, but conversely sometimes gms make mistakes, and the in game bounty system does make it possible to grief with it as it stands at the moment, I am sure goblin works is going to get a proper system in place though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bounty Boards are a two-edged sword. It's important to realize that John Doe might end up on the board accused of being a griefer even though Goblinworks has already listened to the complaint and decided that his actions were acceptable. If a bunch of players then target John Doe thinking that he's fair game because he's a griefer, those players might end up being rightly accused of griefing for consistently targeting him.
I think it will be better all around to use the in-game Bounty system.
My intent was more to set up a watch list than a Hunt Them Down List - if you see a character with that name running around, and you can confirm suspicious behavior, obviously report that to the GMs. But also update the community. Innocent Until Proven Guilty, so people shouldn't go around whacking everyone on that list - that's behavior as poor as what we're trying to prevent, and a good way to end up on the list yourself (if I observe you following someone around all day stabbing them when they're not doing anything to you, I'm very likely to report you).
But, maybe I'm just overthinking. If the community actively (and intelligently) uses the in game resources - reputation, bounties, reporting - then we might end up alright.
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Goblin Squad Member
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RPK = "Random Player Killing", it's essentialy playing the game like you are playing Battlefield2... in other words assuming (wrongly) that killing every other player (that is not on your team/guild) is the objective of the game. It's not really role-playing or playing the game the way the designers intended..... but it's not actualy doing anything that would be harrasment, hence a violation of the Terms of Service, either.
Griefing = Straight out harrasment of another player(s). Sometimes this takes the form of killing another player(s) repeatedly...other times not. It can take the form of repeatedly sending them vulgar/offensive pm's. It can be spamming thier screen with nonsense characters...following them whereever they go and jumping around in front of them blocking thier screens.... continualy mob stealing or "training" mobs into them, etc. Sometimes it can be hard to detect...other times it's as plain as the nose on your face. Sometimes it CAN look like RPK, as well. Since griefing is harrasment it IS potential a violation of the Terms of Service and therefore banable.....if it's clear that is what is occuring.
Playing a bandit or villian is actualy neither. Bandits or villians almost always have objectives to what they are doing....and that objective is to almost never randomly kill other players they come across. For example a Bandits objective is to obtain wealth from others. There would be very little reason to kill a character that was percieved to have little or no wealth (e.g. most "newbies") as it simply wouldn't be worth the bandits time and risk of discovery by authorities and an intelligent bandit would much rather obtain wealth from another person through threat of force then simply killing because there is less risk involved to the bandit and it allows the target to go out and gather more wealth (that can be obtained by the bandit) in future. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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RPK - When you meet somebody in the game world, you make a choice of whether or not you want to attempt to kill the other player. The other player makes the same choice.
In my experience (EQ), I learned the names of players that had killed me and the names of notorious RPKers and where they typically 'hung out' and had little issue avoiding them.
Griefing - You enter the world with the intent to ruin another player's fun.
You follow a person around, disrupting their experience (justin bieber music over voice chat, spamming messages in chat)
You follow a person around, trying to block their view and annoy them by jumping in front of them wherever they look.
You stand on resource nodes they are trying to harvest (standing on herbs/flowers they are trying to click on, standing on their fishing bobber so they don't know when to set the hook, etc).
You follow a person around, killing them repeatedly for little or no mechanical gain.
You enter an area for players of much lower power level, killing them all very easily (they cannot hope to beat you).
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RPKing and Griefing had quite a lot of overlap in almost every game out there. This was mostly due to the last point.
In most other games, which are based on experience/levels, the power gap between two players could be huge. In many games, a 'zone' would cater to players within 5 levels of eachother, and those 5 levels would be a huge advantage (this happened to me in EQ a lot), so even the most 'legitimate' form of RPK (killing a player that you meet while doing other normal stuff) was incredibly one-sided, and felt to many as 'unfair' (I and others found the risk of death to be 'fun').
This will not be the case in PFO.
In PFO, the difference between a 6-month character and a 2-year character is not impossible to overcome, as it is in any game I can think of.
In PFO, the 'newbie' starting cities have god-mode NPC marshals that will destroy any PKer near the settlement, in many cases before that player can even finish killing his victim.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Killing random players in a game were PVP is not consensual is griefing. Only one makes the decision the other one acts in self defense. If the other player is engaged in other activities like gathering and actively trying to avoid you, then you are griefing. The fact that you are trying to rename it does not change that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Killing random players in a game were PVP is not consensual is griefing. Only one makes the decision the other one acts in self defense. If the other player is engaged in other activities like gathering and actively trying to avoid you, then you are griefing. The fact that you are trying to rename it does not change that.
Let me put it to you from another perspective, if I understand the above:
Change the context: If I jump into a FPS(-mmo, even) and I was just wandering around in a pvp warzone, and had no interest in attacking, perhaps I was scouting, and got jumped and gunned down: Would you also say that was griefing me? The fact is in an mmorpg, the game world is supposed to be much richer than holding a gun and pointing the bullets the right way. Eg going and picking herbs and flowers because I am a collector and alchemist does not excuse me if a bandit wanders by and wants my golden sickle to meet their daily profit target, does it? It's all part of the rich tableux imho.
Personally I don't see much difference between a super powerful mob charging in or a player charging a mob minding it's own business than another player taking on this role. The only problem I have is if:
a) The player is insurmountable for me to overcome
b) The player is able to crush my character with high frequency repeatedly
c) The frequency of such an encounter is disproportionate to other actions I wish to be doing in game
IE It's a question of variable challenge and frequency of such, ultimately, that needs balancing - not whether player A managed to win or lose a single combat in a single scenario. If you add an obviously anti-social element to the above in some form then it does become closer to "griefing"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Killing random players in a game were PVP is not consensual is griefing. Only one makes the decision the other one acts in self defense. If the other player is engaged in other activities like gathering and actively trying to avoid you, then you are griefing. The fact that you are trying to rename it does not change that.
What? No. That definition makes PVP pointless.
Getting randomly killed is a known hazard and one that always needs to be planned for. Banditry is something that is intentionally being facilitated in the game. Even playing a murderer, or just somebody that kills anybody that enters their turf are all legitimate ways to play.
Griefing is harrassment, not just simple random player killing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Arslanxelan If non-consensual PvP is a mechanic in the game, how can you call it griefing? Playing a game with non-consensual PvP is an acceptance that you may have to fight when you didn't want to fight.
I like the threat of being killed by other players. It's a better and more unpredictable challenge than any of the other combat encounters I've found in games.
If I enjoy being the 'losing party', it can't be griefing by any definition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Killing random players in a game were PVP is not consensual is griefing. Only one makes the decision the other one acts in self defense. If the other player is engaged in other activities like gathering and actively trying to avoid you, then you are griefing. The fact that you are trying to rename it does not change that.
Lets put it this way, by entering a game where the INTENDED DESIGN MECHANIC includes open PvP, by entering the game world you, de facto, consented to PvP. It doesn't matter if you are gathering, by simply logging in an playing the game... you are giving your consent to the possibility of being engaged in PvP.