Greater Grapple walk me through it

[Lobolusk]

I have greater grapple and improved grapple and stunning pin,

last night I grappled the gorilla king and was confused about the progression of grapple with greater grapple.

round one 1. i charged and punched

round 2 I made a grapple using the Standard action I made it
I then used my move action to deal damage correct? or did I get one more grapple check?

now here is where I got confused

round 3 he failed the grapple check. and then I used my standard action to maintain.
then i chose to pin him with my second check? here is where i am getting confused.

does greater grapple replace the grapple CMB to a move action and give me 2 checks in essences for the price of one? if so what am i supposed to do with my standard action?

my idea was to use stunning ping to apply jaw breaker to drain him of str.

how does grapple flow with thee feats?

[Lobolusk]

I at first thought

1. standard -grapple
2. move -grapple

but now I am thinking

1. standard grapple
2. Move 2 "grapple actions one check?

or standard first grapple check

now grapples are move actions
1 check but 2 grapple actions

[Lobolusk]

I define grapple action has move, pin or damage

[Rendrin]

Page 200 Core Rulebook wrote:

If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in

subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Greater Grapple wrote:

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

Greater Grapple states that "maintaining the grapple is a move action" and when you look under the grapple rules maintaining the grapple is something you do in subsequent rounds to keep holding your foe and also allows you to perform an action (move, damage, pin, or tie up) if you succeed. It looks to me as if Greater Grapple would not allow a second grapple check the same round you initiated the combat maneuver and the initiation would still be a standard action.

It would then go as follows:
Round 1: charged and punched
Round 2: initiate grapple successfully
Round 3: enemy fails to escape & you gain +5 to maintain the grapple. You can perform the maintain twice because of Greater Grapple. If either one of them succeeds then you maintain your grapple and can move, damage, pin, or tie up your opponent. If you choose pin you can then use your swift action for Stunning Pin. If both of your maintain grapple checks succeed then you can pin with the first one, use a swift action to stunning fist, then damage, move, or tie up with your second move action to grapple.
Round 4: enemy cries

[Lobolusk]

but greater grapple specifically says I only have to make one maintain check?

[Rendrin]

Yeah, it specifically has in the text "You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple."

[Liam ap Thalwig]

Round 1: charge + punch
Round 2:
- standard action: grapple
- move action: grapple check (with +5) to move/harm/pin opponent
Round 3:
- move action: grapple check (with +5) to maintain grapple and move/harm/pin opponent
- standard action: if maintaining has been successful you can punch him (or someone else) etc. otherwise you can use the action for a second grapple check (with +5) to maintain grapple and move/harm/pin opponent
Round 4: like Round 3 etc.

[BW-Green]

Liam ap Thalwig wrote:

Round 1: charge + punch

Round 2:
- standard action: grapple
- move action: grapple check (with +5) to move/harm/pin opponent
Round 3:
- move action: grapple check (with +5) to maintain grapple and move/harm/pin opponent
- standard action: if maintaining has been successful you can punch him (or someone else) etc. otherwise you can use the action for a second grapple check (with +5) to maintain grapple and move/harm/pin opponent
Round 4: like Round 3 etc.

I respectfully disagree with round 2:

you cannot use the move action for a grapple check because Improved Grapple only lets you maintain a grapple as a move action freeing your standard action.
It does not allow you to make a grapple check as a move action so you are not able to start (or revert) a grapple and pin (or take another grapple action) in the same round.

[TGMaxMaxer]

It should be:

Round 1: charge and punch

Round 2: Grapple as standard, then grapple again as a move at normal bonus. (the +5 specifically calls out subsequent rounds if the enemy does not break a grapple, will not apply in the first round you initiate, however greater grapple flat out makes maintaining a move action, so if you did not take more than a 5ft step before grappling, you would have a move left to attempt to move, damage, or pin.)

Round 3: Grapple again to pin if you didn't succeed on your previous try, with the +5, as a move action, if this results in a "tie up" you can then take a standard action and a 5ft step this round, or you may make another check to just do damage, move the grapple, or whatever.

:Note that the feat Rapid Grappler will allow you yet another check in the first round, as a swift to apply any condition you like from a grapple check, so it is possible to tie up in a single round with 3 good checks.

[BW-Green]

I stand corrected (James Jacobs answered in a post that you can make the second grapple check as move action in the opening round source )

I would houserule against this on my table because it would allow for tie up in one round as TGMaxMaxer stated.

(And with Body Bludgeon you can even hit a foe with your opponent in the first round :) )

[Lord Phrofet]

With greater grapple and Hamatula Strike could it look like this with claws:

Round 1: attack, claw and grapple
Round 2: Maintain grapple and use the pin action then again to tie up?

[TGMaxMaxer]

Why ban it? It requires 10th level, 5 feats or an archetype of a less than optimal class, is only usable on enemies one size larger than you, requires you to target the worst thing in the game for scaling ability to succeed, and locks you in place for a full round with no -damage- dealt yet, and if you miss even 1 check, they can still full attack you with light or natural weapons.

It also means that you started from within 5ft of the enemy in order to use greater grapple and rapid grappler to tie up an enemy in a single round.

Do you also make gunslingers target full AC?

And disallow magus to make touch attacks for spells?

EDIT: for numbers, at level 10, assuming monk with a 22 in the relevant stat(dex or Str), vs an average CR 10 creature, you have a 50% chance to succeed at each grapple check (BAB 10 for maneuver, 6 stat, 4 feats vs. ~30) This gives you a 1 in 8 chance of succeeding on a tie up in a single round, failing one check subjects you to the creatures full attack, and does not hinder any at-will SLA's most creatures have at this level.
Now, vs. a humanoid with levels, say the best at fighter 10th level, Your target CMD is 10base+10bab+6Str+3Dex+3wpn training if applicable for ~32, while caster/squishy class is closer to a 22. So, YMMV.

[BW-Green]

Well, you have a point there and I think I would reconsider if it comes up (in booth ways since its also a very good option for an encounter).
I still dont like the idea of taking the squishy/caster out of combat in 1 round. (against "melee" type characters and monsters grapple is usually a bad option, I know.

Only for clarification, what ist the 5th feat? (Rapid Grappler,Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike and ?).

If you succeed in your first attempt and then fail in one of the following checks you still have an pinned opponent which is afaik unable to full attack.

As for numbers ... is the enhancement bonus for a whip applicable if you are grappling via whip mastery?

[TGMaxMaxer]

The character is also taken out of combat for the round, has done no damage, if the enemy (remember, this takes level 9-10 to get to) such as a demon/devil has teleport at will they can just poof, etc.

And say, a rage-pouncing barbarian (also at 10)is also going to pretty much take a squishy caster out of combat in the first round, unless someone has a breath of life prepped, which is much less common.

4 feats I mistyped. IUS, Imp Grapple, Gr Grapple, Rapid Grapple. Although if you are planning this build I seriously recommend Chokehold as well.

True. A pinned creature can do limited actions, but the character will also be tied up for a second round in that case, and only have disabled a single enemy. Fair trade for the GM.

It should, since it specifically changes the general rules for grapple to now be applied with a weapon.

Per SKR's clarification on weapon bonuses to CMB checks, disarm/trip/sunder all apply all the time, and that a trip weapon adds weapon bonuses to drag/reposition checks. He also says that GM fiat can add things like a sap for dirty trick for sickened (hitting them low), or other cases where the weapon is mechanically suited for the check. If you spend the feat to use a weapon to make a grapple check, it'd be a sorry GM indeed IMO who didn't let you use the whip to actually do it, and all the magic that that includes.

[Lobolusk]

for the record my character is a monk 2 fighter 9.