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I've got a new player coming who is new to Pathfinder (and D&D). He wants to play a dragon-blooded sorcerer. I don't want to discourage him, but sorcerers can be tough to play. Any suggestions how to get him his dragon fix without being a sorcerer? Or, failing that, how to help him build a "beginner-mode" sorcerer?
Thanks
If he wants a dragon fix, there's not a lot of options within Pathfinder itself. If you're willing, though, you can reach into 3.5 and let him play a Dragon Shaman or Dragonfire Adept, which are both far less complicated than a Sorcerer.
Or how about looking at 4e and building Dragonborn with the ARG?
I thought sorcerers WERE easy-mode.
They aren't too challenging to make. I'd recommend looking at Dragon Disciple as well.
Although ultimately, it is all up to how he wants it to be.
Actually, I disagree. Spontaneous casters are, in my opinion, not too tough to play, and even less so if you just go for a nice blasty build (something I love sorcerers for), with a couple buff/debuff/control/whatever to keep your options open. Just keep in mind that they are relatively squishy, so your new player should be careful about that, but otherwise, they shouldn't have too much trouble. Load them up with a crossbow too, so they can do something when spells run out (I'm assuming this is first, or at least low, level?).
Aside from sticking to the draconic bloodline, I'm not sure what I'd recommend for keeping a dragon theme. Eldritch heritage on it could work, if his Charisma is high enough, but that'll take some time to pay off. Bard into dragon disciple might do too? But again, it'll be awhile before any dragon-themed stuff fits in.
I would personally say stick with sorcerer. But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
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Yeah, I agree with Marthian - sorcerer is what you point new players to when they ask to be a wizard. It's not hard at all as long as yo help him out with spell selection for a few levels.
If you want it to be easy for him or build up his confidence, you can also try and throw creatures at him that play into his abilities. Don't use any creatures with resistance to his energy type in the first few encounters until he has the chance to broaden his spells known a bit.
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Just make a sorcerer that's the equivalent of the Schroedinger's Wizard. He doesn't have to declare what his spells know are until he actually needs them...and that list doesn't necessarily carry over from session to session.
Thanks to everyone for their advice, but this is AWESOME! It's just what I'm going to do. Thanks!
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Although for spells, I would recommend starting him with Burning Hands. Give him some templates of the area and let him figure out how to position himself. Tell him to not think of it as burning hands, but a small breath weapon that he is limited to several times per day.
If you are wanting to make it particularly effective, make him be a human and start him with these two feats: Spell Focus: Evocation and Spell Specialization: Burning hands. That way he starts with a 3d4+3 cone of fire to breathe, and you can have him swap out the spell specialization to Scorching Ray at level 4, Fireball at level 6, Dragon's breath at level 8 and so forth to keep the blasty goodness going.
A Sorcerer readied to go into Dragon Disciple is definitely a pretty neat thing. But like Reynard said, it takes some planning.
If he wants to capitalize on such a build, make sure to keep Strength and Con fairly high, as long as Charisma can go up to 18-19 (depending on how high of the spell levels you want to go. 10 Levels of dragon disciple will preclude you from gaining 9th level spells, though a 12/8 match doesn't. Of course, with stat-boosting items, this is less of a concern.)
Of course, that's very long term planning, and probably not needed. Still, can be considered when planning out stats at creation.
I guess I'm the only one that thinks Dragon Disciplines (and in fact Dragon bloodline sorcerers in general) are pretty weak. Don't get me wrong--I love Sorcerers. I like them more than Wizards, actually. It's just that the bloodline is less than optimal and the prestige class loses caster levels while giving you bonuses better suited to a big dumb fighter than a Sorcerer.
And I don't think Sorcerers are easy mode at all. Spell selection is ridiculously important and difficult. Actually playing a Sorcerer might not be quite as tough, but building one certainly is much more challenging (and fun!) than building a wizard.
If you (or some other optimizer) builds the Sorcerer and this guy just plays it, then you might be ok.
I'm playing a Sorceress and don't think it's a difficult build, as long as you have a strong concept in mind (for spell and feat selection, mostly).
Burning Hands definitely (is one of my favourite spells so far), maybe Vanish if APG is allowed (a good "safety plan" if his enemies get too much in his face, as long as he's good at casting defensively). Maybe you even want to allow him to take the Druid spell Produce Flame (1st level spell from APG) since it would kind of fit his concept and the Sorcerer description states that the spells known don't necessarily have to be from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list if there is a good reason for a different spell.
As cantrips, how about Ray of Frost and/or Acid Splash as backup attack spells, Light (depending on his race, Light can be very important in combat to see the enemies), and maybe Spark?
Best,
your crazy gnome lady from next door
@ mplindustries: As far as Sorc/DD goes, I admit Dragon Disciple has its drawbacks. On the other hand though, with the ability score bonuses it gives, along with a d12 hit die, I feel it makes a sorcerer that is planning for it pretty nice.
I personally like the 12/8 difference since it leaves you with full 9th level casting (if, admittedly, you only get wish and one other spell known of 9th level, it at least opens up the slots). The last two levels of DD look pretty terrible in my opinion, and one of them loses out on the spellcasting increase, so I personally wouldn't take 'em.
On the other hand, at that point you can basically get yourself a character with pretty much full 9th level spellcasting and the ability to turn into a dragon for 18 minutes via a single spell, along with giving you strength bonuses, constitution bonuses, and quite a few natural attacks, while still retaining the ability to cast spells in combat, if needed. Even if you don't use form of the dragon, you can gain claws and a bite, and actually get some use out of them.
As for whether or not sorcerers are easy mode, I agree spell selection is extremely important for them, but for an early start it's also forgiving. As long as the party is balanced, not having a fully rounded spell list shouldn't be a complete disaster, and you can pick up something you find yourself missing later.
At least, that's my thoughts on it, and why I think the Sorcerer is nice. Then again, I've never been a fan of prepared spellcasters in the first place, so I can't really compare between them anyway.
Dragon Disicple is pretty cool if you want to mix melee and magic. In terms of stats it should roughly be
Str=Cha>Con.
Using spells, feats, items and bloodline you can get a str in the lower stratosphere. Your a caster when appropriate and can mix it up in melee as a dragon.
Look over that guide and help your player along. The best part is that you, assuming you are both the DM and the one helping him, can get him to build it just right for the power level of the game.
Personally I disagree with Oterisk on a couple of things namely DD advancing both bloodlines of a crossblooded sorc. Eldritch Hertiage feats are pretty legit though.
Sorcerers are pretty easy to play if you are playing from Level 1 as a new Player.
Personally I disagree with Oterisk on a couple of things namely DD advancing both bloodlines of a crossblooded sorc. Eldritch Hertiage feats are pretty legit though.
Yea, it is a very RAW concept vs RAI. But for a level 1 player I'd suggest just going straight old sorcerer with the Draconic bloodline, and Eldritch into Abyssal. Take Skill focus early and a level of unarmed fighter so he can still fight when his claws aren't up. Later on, as he gets more experiance, he can decide to take more sorcerer levels or another 4 unarmed fighter levels.
Depending on playstyle Paladin is probably better then fighter
New Player + Lawful Good shtick . . . that can't possibly go wrong.
New Player + Lawful Good shtick . . . that can't possibly go wrong.
Took the words from my mind...
I'm playing a Sorceress and don't think it's a difficult build, as long as you have a strong concept in mind (for spell and feat selection, mostly).
Burning Hands definitely (is one of my favourite spells so far)
See, that right there is exactly the kind of rookie mistake people make with Sorcerers. Why are you getting into dangerous range to deal laughable damage when you could instead be blinding/stunning/knocking unconscious those enemies in the same area? Color Spray is so much better than Burning Hands, it's like a more one sided fist fight than Mike Tyson vs. a new born.
I mean, I'm glad you enjoy the spell, but at the same time, thank you for perfectly illustrating my point.
Blasting requires Feats to succeed. Battlefield Control doesn't.
But a Controller can't be a good blaster. but a Blaster can be a good controller.
I have a sorcerer in my games who can blast a room full of enemies, and nearly kill them all, or debuff them to the point of being weaker than a New Born.
The Wizard can also debuff the enemies to that point but he is worthless when it comes to damage spells.
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yea, Sorcerers are great for blasts. Personally i like DD because it adds some survivability to a fragile class. The one thing a new player doesn't understand is how quickly those hit points can come down, and how fast not wearing armor sucks. Dragon Disciple will mitigate this by A LOT. It's almost ideal.
Yes paladin is good for charisma stacking, but that's at second level and let's face it, it's better to let the new guy be free in his roleplaying descisions before we introduce him to classes who tend to be hammered on their roleplay options. Not saying you can't RP a pally and enjoy it, just that noobs can't really RP a pally and enjoy it.
My preferred DD build is Barb 5 / Sorc 1 / DD 10 / Barb 4. You can have piddly CHA (you only get up to 4th level spells), but you get a solid selection of Bloodline Powers. You don't get 2nd level spells until level 10, so you pick buff spells only (or even out of combat spells). I lined up to have the Abyssal BPs through Eldritch Heritage, as well, and the build had an estimated 50ish STR at level 20 under certain circumstances.
Blasting requires Feats to succeed. Battlefield Control doesn't.
But a Controller can't be a good blaster. but a Blaster can be a good controller.
I have a sorcerer in my games who can blast a room full of enemies, and nearly kill them all, or debuff them to the point of being weaker than a New Born.
And I guarantee you don't use Burning Hands to do so. I never said you shouldn't blast, I said you shouldn't use Burning Hands over Color Spray (and really, you shouldn't use Burning Hands at all).
Even as a blaster, you still need to know which blasts are worth taking. Picking spells is not easy mode.
yea, Sorcerers are great for blasts. Personally i like DD because it adds some survivability to a fragile class. The one thing a new player doesn't understand is how quickly those hit points can come down, and how fast not wearing armor sucks. Dragon Disciple will mitigate this by A LOT. It's almost ideal.
As a Support Bard, I've been attack one time in about 15 sessions. I played a control Sorcerer that was attacked less than a dozen times over the course of an entire campaign. Position yourself smartly and you won't have to worry.
I've also never found lack of Armor to be an issue. In every party I've ever been in, spellcasters have always been harder to hit than the melee guys. Mage Armor at level 1, for example, with a decent Dex score, instantly puts you on par with just about everyone else. Later on, you've always got some kind of miss chance. Eventually, you're positioned in places enemies can't even get to you.
THe main benefit of going Unarmed fighter is for those five levels of fighter to qualify for the human Martial feat from the APG, so you can get weapon focus (natural weapons) and use style feats with natural attacks. Dragon Style plus Dragon Ferocity means 2x strength mod on all natural attacks, and with Form of the Dragon you have 6 of them.
That's an option for the newbie if the DM is willing to help him n that path, but his spell levels cap at 7th i believe. If he goes straight sorcerer after DD then he'll get those 9th level spells and he can still be darn tough in melee. It's really up to what the new player wants, and this way he can kinda choose.
Burning Hands is a Good lower level spell for when you encounter groups of enemies. Now I will say it is better as a Wand.
Blasting requires Feats to succeed. Battlefield Control doesn't.
But a Controller can't be a good blaster. but a Blaster can be a good controller.
I have a sorcerer in my games who can blast a room full of enemies, and nearly kill them all, or debuff them to the point of being weaker than a New Born.
And I guarantee you don't use Burning Hands to do so. I never said you shouldn't blast, I said you shouldn't use Burning Hands over Color Spray (and really, you shouldn't use Burning Hands at all).
Even as a blaster, you still need to know which blasts are worth taking. Picking spells is not easy mode.
yea, Sorcerers are great for blasts. Personally i like DD because it adds some survivability to a fragile class. The one thing a new player doesn't understand is how quickly those hit points can come down, and how fast not wearing armor sucks. Dragon Disciple will mitigate this by A LOT. It's almost ideal.As a Support Bard, I've been attack one time in about 15 sessions. I played a control Sorcerer that was attacked less than a dozen times over the course of an entire campaign. Position yourself smartly and you won't have to worry.
I've also never found lack of Armor to be an issue. In every party I've ever been in, spellcasters have always been harder to hit than the melee guys. Mage Armor at level 1, for example, with a decent Dex score, instantly puts you on par with just about everyone else. Later on, you've always got some kind of miss chance. Eventually, you're positioned in places enemies can't even get to you.
I know it's not your problem. you need to look at it through the eyes of a new guy. It's kinda hard to know where the best positions are and what defensive spells to take are, though I'm sure the DM is willing to help him in that.
He'll make a lot of mistakes. DD ensures he survives those mistakes.
I also say Sorc(Draconic)/DD would be an excellent build for this.
"You should never use burning hands."
(Gets murdered by swarms)
Somebody forgot to buy their Wand of Burning Hands, huh?
"You should never use burning hands."
(Gets murdered by swarms)
Low level swarms can be killed by weapons--you don't have to personally kill every enemy. Also, although I think it's ridiculous, I've seen developer's comment on how rays have full effect against swarms, so even just a ray of frost contributes fine (and does only .5 damage less than Burning Hands at level 1 to boot!)
Here's what I'd recommend:
STR 12 DEX 13 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 16+2
Race: Half-Orc
Traits: Accelerated Drinker (You're a Sorcerer - you'll always have a hand free.), Reactive (Going First == Good!)
Feats: Toughness.
Favored Class: Half-Orc Extra Blasty
Starting HP: 6+3+2=11.
Spells:
1st: Magic Missile, Shield
2nd: Pick a cantrip. Message is usually good.
3rd Level: Pick up Elemental Spell, pick up Mage Armor (Bloodline), pick up Burning Hands or Burning Disarm.
4th Level: Pick up Acid Arrow, for some damage that isn't force or fire. You can now cast Elemental Magic Missile. Your Magic Missiles will do 1d4+1+1+2 per missile, which gets into respectable damage.
5th level: Pick up Extended Spell. Extended Mage Armor is a day long. Pick up Floating Disk as the 1st level spell, and Spectral Hand as the 2nd. Acquire Rod of Reach Spell.
6th level: Fireball (of course). You can now cast Elemental Acid Arrow, which does 2d4+2+3 Fire damage per round for 3 rounds.
7th level: By now, they should know what they want.
8th level: You can now cast an extended elemental acid arrow. This becomes a 1-spell "kill it with fire over a nice loooong time" spell to anything without fire resistance.
5th Level: Pick up
Elemental Spell?
That Feat changes energy types, how are you applying it to a force spell and how does it add damage?
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Thanks to everyone for their advice, but this is AWESOME! It's just what I'm going to do. Thanks!Just make a sorcerer that's the equivalent of the Schroedinger's Wizard. He doesn't have to declare what his spells know are until he actually needs them...and that list doesn't necessarily carry over from session to session.
Not sure that's the best idea for a new player. Absolutely give him flexibility in retraining spells if he picks something that looks good but is actually useless, but the whole reason that I consider a sorcerer easier than a wizard is that you go into the adventure with a very clear spell list that isn't going to change a whole lot from one adventure to another. The limited toolbox is an advantage to the newbie - you know what you're dealing with. If the character is picking their spells known from the huge sorc/wiz spell list on the spot in the middle of the adventure (or worse, in the middle of combat) it'll be information overload.
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It depends on your goal.
The theory-crafted sorcerers are all very optimized, but, in my opinion, the real problem with a newbie playing a sorcerer is that, having never played the game before, they don't know what they're going to find fun.
Say I build a fully optimized battlefield controller. The player might find out that he just enjoys blasting things, and feel frustrated when I keep telling him that battlefield control is "better". Or, I build him a blaster-type, but he keeps charging into close combat, and gets introduced that hard way to the phrase "glass cannon".
By leaving the spells open, the sorcerer completely fits whatever his favoured play style turns out to be. Worst case scenario, he needs to roll a new character in a couple of levels because a different class/build would fit better, but at least he had the most possible amount of fun playing his sorc. in the meantime.
@ Writer-- Thanks for the plug.
I don't know anyone who wants to play like a dragon and then end up shooting pretty rainbows out of their bellies like a care bear.
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I'm playing a Sorceress and don't think it's a difficult build, as long as you have a strong concept in mind (for spell and feat selection, mostly).
Burning Hands definitely (is one of my favourite spells so far)
See, that right there is exactly the kind of rookie mistake people make with Sorcerers. Why are you getting into dangerous range to deal laughable damage when you could instead be blinding/stunning/knocking unconscious those enemies in the same area? Color Spray is so much better than Burning Hands, it's like a more one sided fist fight than Mike Tyson vs. a new born.
I mean, I'm glad you enjoy the spell, but at the same time, thank you for perfectly illustrating my point.
Should I stop eating the food I like just because you think there is better food out there?
Should I stop making the rookie mistake of driving car brand "A" just because you think car brand "B" offers superior options?Should I quit my job just because you might think mine is inferior to yours?
I mean, I'm glad you enjoy your ability to lord over others anonymously on the interwebs, but at the same time, thank you for perfectly illustrating my point.
It depends on your goal.
The theory-crafted sorcerers are all very optimized, but, in my opinion, the real problem with a newbie playing a sorcerer is that, having never played the game before, they don't know what they're going to find fun.
Say I build a fully optimized battlefield controller. The player might find out that he just enjoys blasting things, and feel frustrated when I keep telling him that battlefield control is "better". Or, I build him a blaster-type, but he keeps charging into close combat, and gets introduced that hard way to the phrase "glass cannon".
By leaving the spells open, the sorcerer completely fits whatever his favoured play style turns out to be. Worst case scenario, he needs to roll a new character in a couple of levels because a different class/build would fit better, but at least he had the most possible amount of fun playing his sorc. in the meantime.
Hence the Dragon Disciple. It can melee, blast, battlefield control, and as you see how he likes to develop and play his character you can guide him down some of the different paths a dragon disciple can be. That lst part is the key: the flexibility of the class, which to me should be the real seller for a new player. It's pretty good at a whole slew of roles, and is a great way to learn the different aspects of the game without getting overrun by them.
I would.@ Writer-- Thanks for the plug.
I don't know anyone who wants to play like a dragon and then end up shooting pretty rainbows out of their bellies like a care bear.
Nice to meet you.
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It depends on your goal.
The theory-crafted sorcerers are all very optimized, but, in my opinion, the real problem with a newbie playing a sorcerer is that, having never played the game before, they don't know what they're going to find fun.
Say I build a fully optimized battlefield controller. The player might find out that he just enjoys blasting things, and feel frustrated when I keep telling him that battlefield control is "better". Or, I build him a blaster-type, but he keeps charging into close combat, and gets introduced that hard way to the phrase "glass cannon".
By leaving the spells open, the sorcerer completely fits whatever his favoured play style turns out to be. Worst case scenario, he needs to roll a new character in a couple of levels because a different class/build would fit better, but at least he had the most possible amount of fun playing his sorc. in the meantime.
That makes more sense. In that case, I'd still make him an abridged list to choose from as he plays - you might want him to be able to choose between blasting and control, but he really doesn't need to worry about niche spells like Emblazon Crest or Sculpt Corpse.
For me, and it does change depending upon DM and campaign, Color Spray is the wand, Burning Hands is the actual spell selection that I swap out for other level 1 spells later.
Color spray, a level 1 Will Negates (Mind affecting Illusion) spell is stopped too easily. Mind Affecting means no undead, and there's lots of fun low level undead to fight. Also, too many races have an annoying resistance to both illusions and mind affecting spells at low level. Will Negates means anything with a decent Will save makes the spell do nothing, and I'm never a fan of a cast doing nothing.
Meanwhile Burning Hands may not be super effective all the time, but filling an area with some fire can always have uses. Low level swarms particularly hate it, as was pointed out.
CrazyGnomeLady wrote:
I'm playing a Sorceress and don't think it's a difficult build, as long as you have a strong concept in mind (for spell and feat selection, mostly).
Burning Hands definitely (is one of my favourite spells so far)See, that right there is exactly the kind of rookie mistake people make with Sorcerers. Why are you getting into dangerous range to deal laughable damage when you could instead be blinding/stunning/knocking unconscious those enemies in the same area? Color Spray is so much better than Burning Hands, it's like a more one sided fist fight than Mike Tyson vs. a new born.
I mean, I'm glad you enjoy the spell, but at the same time, thank you for perfectly illustrating my point.
Well, you do have a point that Burning Hands with CL 1st is rather weak (especially for being close to the enemies). I forgot that I actually started the game at level 3 (only two characters in the party so my GM allowed me to start at a higher level to keep the power level balanced), and my Pyromaniac racial trait gave me another +1 to CL, so I started Burning Hands with 4d4 of damage. Against low-level enemies with rather low Reflex saves? Great spell! Against swarms? Live-saving! The other reason I still like Burning Hands as a damage spell even a few levels into the game (CL 7th for fire spells by now) is that I hit the enemy no matter how high their AC is. So yeah, even though I can cast Scorching Ray with 2 x 4d6 of damage now, there are times when I prefer to cast Burning Hands for 5d4 points of damage, even though I have to get closer up.
Color Spray is definitely an impressive spell against low-level enemies, if they’re not immune to it. And if you don’t take a damage spell as second 1st-level spell, you should definitely take Ray of Frost or Acid Splash as a cantrip…one of my players has Color Spray and Vanish, and no offensive cantrip, and has been fleeing combats far too often when the enemies were immune to Color Spray….
I’m by no means a rookie anymore, but I think it’s important that you pointed out the dangers of a spell like Burning Hands if you don’t really know what you’re doing ;)
Best,
Your crazy gnome lady from next door