Goblin Squad Member
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You do realize that for it to be murder it has to be a kill by the aggressors inside lawful territory, outside of a declared war, don't you?
I believe I effectively quoted and highlighted the misconception I was trying to correct.The part you highlighted says nothing about avoiding an alignment shift, so what did you correct? Brute and I were discussing the criminal flag, not alignment or reputation.
Maybe it will be more clear if I quote with higlights:
What makes you think it was a murder?
You do realize that for it to be murder it has to be a kill by the aggressors inside lawful territory, outside of a declared war, don't you?
You can also reference that same thread you just linked for a quote I posted from the blogs about the definition of 'murder' in PFO.
You can also reference this thread for a review of the first time you and I had this conversation.
Blaeringr, buddy, if you want to try to prove I'm the idiot you treat me like, why don't you show me where murder is defined, you know - where it says murder "has to be a kill by the aggressors inside lawful territory, outside of a declared war"?
I mean, that would really show me up, don't you think?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You mean this post? I just told you to reference that thread. It quotes from the blog about bounties.
From the blog:
When you are murdered—that is, killed unlawfully—you will have the option to place a bounty on your killer's head.And does the system distinguish between regions to determine what lawfully is? Well let's just look at another quote from the blog to answer that as well:
Bounties can only be issued when a character unlawfully kills another. Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system.Gasp! why would they do that. Well, lucky for us, they explain their intent. Also in the blog.
The intent is to deter characters from arbitrarily attacking and killing others simply for fun. Of course, those who simply wish to avoid any PvP at all will choose to remain within the very high security zones close to NPC settlements where PvP is effectively impossible. Such players will have fewer opportunities to find adventure or to earn treasure than their braver and less risk-averse peers, but they'll be safe from griefers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You mean this post? I just told you to reference that thread. It quotes from the blog about bounties.
From the blog:When you are murdered—that is, killed unlawfully—you will have the option to place a bounty on your killer's head.And does the system distinguish between regions to determine what lawfully is? Well let's just look at another quote from the blog to answer that as well:Bounties can only be issued when a character unlawfully kills another. Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system.Gasp! why would they do that. Well, lucky for us, they explain their intent. Also in the blog.The intent is to deter characters from arbitrarily attacking and killing others simply for fun. Of course, those who simply wish to avoid any PvP at all will choose to remain within the very high security zones close to NPC settlements where PvP is effectively impossible. Such players will have fewer opportunities to find adventure or to earn treasure than their braver and less risk-averse peers, but they'll be safe from griefers.
Your response the first time I pointed that out to you (this makes three now, as someone seems to not want to acknowledge the implications of open PvP) you complained I was being too snarky in my response.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... someone seems to not want to acknowledge the implications of open PvP...
I don't have any problem acknowledging what I understand to be true. If it's not apparent, I believe you are operating under a misunderstanding. I have tried a couple of times to get the devs to clarify the situation. At each turn, they have explained that what I thought was true was indeed true. Perhaps this third time will indeed prove a charm for one of us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Uhg. You just made me realize a catch in my system of automatically sending their stuff back to them. That would interfere with meaningful trade. As would any kind of mail system.
I like the rest of your idea though. You could make it so when you recover someone's gear they get a message with your name on it. And you could have a loot recovery system kind of like a mail system that is localized (So you can only pick it up from the same location where it was dropped off.)
What if your friends (or even just helpful adventurers) could bury your body? Maybe it would take a full minute or two, something that requires a small sacrifice of uninterrupted time, but prevents anyone besides your own self from looting your corpse-husk.
It doesn't help return your items if you died in a spot swamped with monsters of a higher level than you, but maybe there should be punishment for biting off more than you can chew. Maybe that should be the real incentive for your friends or kind strangers to protect your husk/grave-site: give you a fighting chance of recovering all your gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bounties can only be issued when a character unlawfully kills another. Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system.
So it's not murder just because its in the wilderness? I thought that's where most murders would happen...
Or is just a subset of murder that doesn't trigger the bounty system because there is not law in that region to accept the bounty? Doesn't quite make sense.
I also wonder if people marked by a bounty automatically show up on everyone's screen as 'Kill me'. Would it make more sense to have a bounty wall in the local town barracks that people would need to actively peruse (i.e. "learn the faces and crimes of the bounties") in order to be able to attack them. In-character, if I kill a person and they just happen to have a bounty on them, my intent was still unlawful murder, but I got lucky and won't have the law come after me. But shouldn't I at least fall away from Good and towards Evil alignment a little?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then explain this thread: "Does killing another player in the wilderness give me the Criminal Flag?" and why you said... someone seems to not want to acknowledge the implications of open PvP...I don't have any problem acknowledging what I understand to be true. If it's not apparent, I believe you are operating under a misunderstanding. I have tried a couple of times to get the devs to clarify the situation. At each turn, they have explained that what I thought was true was indeed true. Perhaps this third time will indeed prove a charm for one of us.
This has come up several times before. I think the answer is "Yes". Others think the answer is clearly "No".
The answer you got is there will be tags: "criminal" (for lawful settlements) and just "attacker" (for other areas).
Actually as I said twice in this thread I'm looking at divorcing the functionality of an Attacker flag from a Criminal flag, so someone who is attacked in the wilderness would get Attacker but not Criminal so we can keep track of who is starting the fight. Criminal would be used more for breaking laws in settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Blaeringr, buddy, if you want to try to prove I'm the idiot
Your posts speak for themselves. I've merely reminded you of what has been said several times already, by yourself included. If you want to imply that your gravitation towards denial is the result of intellect, that's your conclusion to make.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Beilian don't get hund up on the word "murder". They key is whether or not a criminal flag is applied.
But strictly speaking the definition of murder does include "unlawful". Murder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.
So the way GW has decided to interpret that is that if there is no formal law ascribed to the area, then it is not formally a murder. It can still be a murder in an informal sense of the word though, but they're just coding the formal definition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr, just for the record, do you have any objections to the way I phrased my question in the thread Question on Murder and "lawful territory"?
If the devs answer there that "Yes, you can place a Bounty on an Attacker who kills you in the wilderness", will that actually mean that you were wrong?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon, I can see my link in post #53 isn't working, let me see if I can get you one that works...
So to re-answer this:
why don't you show me where murder is defined, you know - where it says murder "has to be a kill by the aggressors inside lawful territory, outside of a declared war"?Go to this blog: To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms where you will find these statements:
When you are murdered—that is, killed unlawfully
Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system. The intent is to deter characters from arbitrarily attacking and killing others simply for fun. Of course, those who simply wish to avoid any PvP at all will choose to remain within the very high security zones close to NPC settlements where PvP is effectively impossible. Such players will have fewer opportunities to find adventure or to earn treasure than their braver and less risk-averse peers
Then if you go to the thread where we were discussing bounties (and this answers the question you just asked) and go down to post #6(here's the link), you can re-read the very first time we discussed this same topic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So if they answer "Yes, you can place a Bounty on an Attacker who kills you in the wilderness", then I would ask if they have decided to divorce the matter of bounties from the criminal tagging system. Right now we have plenty of quotes that give an answer to that: "no". Shall I continue posting links to quotes for you that we've already discussed several times now?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr, thanks for all those links. How about a simple yes/no?
You see, in my mind, I've already proven you wrong twice. I just didn't feel it was necessary to rub your nose in it when it happened. If I prove you wrong a 3rd time, I'd like some kind of assurance that you'll actually acknowledge it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the devs answer there that "Yes, you can place a Bounty on an Attacker who kills you in the wilderness", will that actually mean that you were wrong?
That quote. I'm not trying to get you to acknowledge that I've already proven you wrong. I'm trying to get you to acknowledge that the quoted answer from the devs would prove you wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have you forgotten saying this already?If the devs answer there that "Yes, you can place a Bounty on an Attacker who kills you in the wilderness", will that actually mean that you were wrong?That quote. I'm not trying to get you to acknowledge that I've already proven you wrong. I'm trying to get you to acknowledge that the quoted answer from the devs would prove you wrong.
You see, in my mind, I've already proven you wrong twice.
If they said such a thing, it would prove they've changed their minds. It would not prove I was wrong about what they have said in the past, and I have backed that up with quotes and links.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr, I'm really just trying to understand the nuances of whatever it is you're saying.
You made a big deal of the word "murder" above. I'm trying to understand why you did so.
My best guess right now is that you believe it's not going to be flagged as "murder" if it happens in the wilderness, and that "murder" is significant because it allows for a Bounty.
So, if I can show that a Bounty can be placed even when the victim is killed in the wilderness, then I believe I will have proven you wrong. I'm just trying to get you to acknowledge whether or not that is the case.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stephen just came in to verify that yes, you can indeed place a Bounty on someone who kills you in the wilderness. *link
Oh well, too late this time. Maybe next time you'll actually state your position clearly enough for someone to make up their own mind about whether or not I've proven you wrong :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr, I'm really just trying to understand the nuances of whatever it is you're saying.
You made a big deal of the word "murder" above. I'm trying to understand why you did so.
My best guess right now is that you believe it's not going to be flagged as "murder" if it happens in the wilderness, and that "murder" is significant because it allows for a Bounty.
So, if I can show that a Bounty can be placed even when the victim is killed in the wilderness, then I believe I will have proven you wrong. I'm just trying to get you to acknowledge whether or not that is the case.
If you can show that a Bounty can be placed for an attack in the wilderness, you will have proven that the devs have changed their stance.
My stance is about what the devs have said]. If they change their minds, I can give them and you quotes from them to show that they used to have a different stance, but that is hardly me claiming they have to stick to that old stance. They are free to change their minds.
I made a big deal of the word "murder" because as the blog says
Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, .
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Goblin Squad Member
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I made a big deal of the word "murder" because as the blog saysKilling an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, .
Great! That's what I understood you to be saying when I quoted this:
You do realize that for it to be murder it has to be a kill by the aggressors inside lawful territory, outside of a declared war, don't you?
And tried to point out that you were mistaken that you could only place a Bounty if someone killed you inside lawful territory.
I can't explain why I understood that and you didn't, but I can point to where the devs agreed that what I thought was true was indeed true.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please do.
If you can place bounties on people who kill you outside of lawful territory, then the devs have clearly changed their stance.
In light of your most recent two threads on the topic, I think the question that would clarify it the most is:
Can you have a bounty placed on your head if you have received the "attacker" flag, but have not received the "criminal" flag?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please do.
Sure! :)
From Question on Murder and "lawful territory":
You can Bounty and/or Death Curse anyone who kills you...
There are some caveats, but none of them revolve around whether or not you are "inside lawful territory" when you are killed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That quote is from after this conversation we have began. It does indeed seem to indicate that the devs have changed their minds, but it is definitely the first. And it is a very recent change considering it differs from the answer you got the previous time you set up a thread to ask the same question.
He posted that 55 minutes ago from when I am writing this response. 12 minutes before that you posted
You see, in my mind, I've already proven you wrong twice.
and have given only one example that took place afterwards, not past tense.
In any case to summarize it all, according to Stephen Cheney, they have changed their stance.
And that brings me back to this post I made:
So any attacker in a wilderness area that is not controlled by any settlement at all will be flagged as a criminal. Someone who can, as the early blogs put it, have bounties re-issued on them forever more so long as the victim can still pay.
That is a very vivid change in the early descriptions of the game concept of one of open PvP where adventure is only for the brave. From what you're saying here, Goblinworks have changed their direction on that big time. To me you're no longer talking about the same game anymore, and that's giving me a lot to think about. But I'm glad to get this information now, rather than after you've taken more of my money.
The issue I brought up there was not so much on the criminal flag, but what I saw as the consequences - the bounty system.
So if, as Stephen and Nihimon claim, the system is changing, that very much changes things for people who, based off of a clear explanation in the earlier blogs had a particular play system in mind, this game is no longer viable for them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do threads only exist for equipment slots? As opposed to inventory slots.
Very interesting question. When I originally read the blog, I assumed it would only be equipment slots. Reading it again just now, it's not clear that's what they meant. It would certainly make sense to allow the player to use their Threads of Fate however they wish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd also like to see a minimum time to own something before you can thread it. So I have 15 minutes or so to track you down and take back the sword you just took from me.
+1. I'd like stolen items to be "Hot" for a while so that they can't be placed in storage or Threaded. And it would be nice if the thief couldn't log out as well.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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No matter how many elaborate systems of punishment and safeguard you put in place, zone-wide PvP in an MMO fundamentally can’t work, isn’t fun, and has no place in a fantasy world where there are already more than enough things trying to kill you. Player consensual duels—absolutely. Faction wars yielding unlootable corpses—fine. An infinite supply of tag-team griefers sniping every noob that steps out of town—prepare for bankruptcy. Pathfinder’s anti-theme park philosophy is great. But I think it completely missed the mark on PvP. Your development hours would be better spent elsewhere than trying to design stopgaps that any pair of eight year-olds with headsets can circumvent in five minutes.
If you guys are going to stray this far from traditional pen and paper mechanics, I’d seriously look at GW2’s abandonment of the dedicated healer and their death/recovery systems. I remember the days of 4am EQ corpse runs. They’ll always hold a “special” place. But I will never willingly subject myself to that aggravation again. I can’t stress enough that this game can’t be tedious for the sake of stunting the “power gamer”. Player level-scaling across zones would be another system to “borrow” from GW2.
Ask yourselves, other than world setting, what unique niche will this game satisfy to make it stand out from the competition? If it’s “anti-theme park”, we had better never see the same quest or dungeon boss twice. If it’s “sandbox”, players had better be able to level landscapes, build cities and overthrow nations--day one. Variety—by 2015 your game is going to need LOTS of it...races, classes, feats, spells, skills, gear, monsters, haircuts, voices, trees, rocks, dirt—no corners cut.
I see it in your blogs and your videos…your team is putting an inordinate amount of thought into the various systems behind this game. That, I hope can be worked to your advantage, and not your undoing. Listen to your beta testers. Be prepared to gut ideas potentially dear to you. You are nowhere near the average gamer. If you’re developing a game with yourself in mind, save the world $1 million, and just host a Neverwinter Nights module with a custom rule set. :)
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Just want to add my two cents
Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system.
Where does it say that wilderness is considered an area that does not have laws against murder? I take that more to mean a Chaotic or Evil aligned area that specifically says there aren't laws against murder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Dakcenturi, that quote is very old, and new information has contradicted it, including a clarification from earlier today.
From Question on Murder and "lawful territory":
You can Bounty and/or Death Curse anyone who kills you* unless you had one of the mitigating flags when you died (Attacker, Criminal, At War, etc.).
Also, from Question on Murder and "lawful territory":
Can you have a bounty placed on your head if you have received the "attacker" flag, but have not received the "criminal" flag?"Yes.
We're of course open to discussion on this (and most) subjects, particularly if you perceive issues that we haven't noticed yet.
Assassination will likely be an exception to a lot of rules on murder, but we're still debating the specifics internally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just want to add my two cents
Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system.Where does it say that wilderness is considered an area that does not have laws against murder? I take that more to mean a Chaotic or Evil aligned area that specifically says there aren't laws against murder.
I had thought that lawless areas were just that. Areas where no (let's say chartered) group has claimed territory and imposed a set of laws. I hope there is some way to discover you have entered such an area to know when to modify your character's behavior. That is, if your character is predisposed to random killing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I had thought that lawless areas were just that. Areas where no (let's say chartered) group has claimed territory and imposed a set of laws. I hope there is some way to discover you have entered such an area to know when to modify your character's behavior. That is, if your character is predisposed to random killing.Just want to add my two cents
Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system.Where does it say that wilderness is considered an area that does not have laws against murder? I take that more to mean a Chaotic or Evil aligned area that specifically says there aren't laws against murder.
That is indeed what "lawless" means. But Ryan has decided we were all just making assumptions to read it that way. Whatever the case is, they've settled their policy that bounties can indeed reach into the lawless wilderness.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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That is indeed what "lawless" means. But Ryan has decided we were all just making assumptions to read it that way. Whatever the case is, they've settled their policy that bounties can indeed reach into the lawless wilderness.
Just as a point of clarification. If you go out in the middle of the woods somewhere and kill someone, then go back to a city and tell the police you killed someone in the middle of the woods you would still be arrested.
Even though there isn't someone there to directly enforce the laws doesn't mean that the area of land you killed someone in is devoid of laws.
Where as if you had a settlement that controls a chunk of land and that settlement specifically did not have laws against killing someone (IE a Chaotic Evil settlement) this is truly lawless in regards to murder, since there isn't a law specifically against it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is indeed what "lawless" means. But Ryan has decided we were all just making assumptions to read it that way. Whatever the case is, they've settled their policy that bounties can indeed reach into the lawless wilderness.I had thought that lawless areas were just that. Areas where no (let's say chartered) group has claimed territory and imposed a set of laws. I hope there is some way to discover you have entered such an area to know when to modify your character's behavior. That is, if your character is predisposed to random killing.Just want to add my two cents
Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system.Where does it say that wilderness is considered an area that does not have laws against murder? I take that more to mean a Chaotic or Evil aligned area that specifically says there aren't laws against murder.
That does have a lot of weight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Darkcenturi is that historically true of frontier style areas? Your example also involves telling the police what you did...
And there are many historic examples of people committing crimes in one jurisdiction then sheltering safely in another. Even murder. Getting past that has required extensive diplomatic negotiations that even today are not always honored.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@Blaeringr My example of telling the police relates back to the whole discussion about the bounty system. Even if the murder doesn't go back and tell someone the player would. IE someone always has the potential to tell someone.
What I was trying to illustrate was that if you go to a place where they have laws against murder and *someone* tells the authority there they were murdered (in the case of the game) the authority there would enforce the law and provide punishment on the murderderd.
Where as if you go to a place where there are no laws against murder and *someone* tells the authority, they aren't going to care because it is *lawless* in regards to murder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of my problems as a GM is that I confuse real world stuff with the game. This, after all, is a virtual construct and the rules are just rules. They may or may not have a quantum reality, but they are the rules we will all agree to play by. I may be missing the point, but so what if the rules on the definition of killing extend into the wilderness where there are no rules. So does magic.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Someone might tell the police sometimes: I'm ok with that. The police always find out instantly, no matter how remote the crime scene: that's silly.
I agree, but the reporting (bounty) isn't always going to happen as you say. (As far as I know) There isn't a game mechanic that flags you as a criminal in the wilds if you kill someone, only simply that someone can report you to an authority (or in this case a bounty hunter) that would then do something about it.
Of course if you are in CE land where they don't care if people get murdered and you go report it, your just as likely to get murdered yourself.
Hehe I think it's back to a case of semantics and boils down to how the bounty system will work. Either way, I'll leave it there since Ryan pointed out the info we were looking for. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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And the bounty system as it currently exists is, in my mind, overly harsh to apply to those conditions.
Not if you just issue a bounty once, no. But the way the blog describes it as something that can go on forever and have you constantly on the run no matter how many times you've already been punished is crazy.