Goblin Squad Member
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I thought we had pretty much cleared this up with the thread Does killing another player in the wilderness give me the Criminal Flag?, but there seems to still be some significant resistance.
The blog To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms talks about "murder" in the context of the bounty system:
When you are murdered—that is, killed unlawfully—you will have the option to place a bounty on your killer's head.
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Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system.
Can one of the devs please clarify what significance there is to "an area that does not have laws against murder"? How does the Bounty system apply to the Attacker in the wilderness?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is also a post by lee that seems to imply wilderness killings carry a flag, but it's not criminal it's 'attacker'.
Actually as I said twice in this thread I'm looking at divorcing the functionality of an Attacker flag from a Criminal flag, so someone who is attacked in the wilderness would get Attacker but not Criminal so we can keep track of who is starting the fight. Criminal would be used more for breaking laws in settlements. Currently Criminal is sort of doing double duty in its functionality, so breaking off the Attacker functionality seems like a good solution.
And the new blog seems to replaces the bounty system with the 'death curse' and doesn't mention 'lawful territory'
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not a dev, so all I can do is provide my request: The default should be murder is unlawful. If you enter areas controlled by CE entities (or whoever thinks murder is okay), you should get a warning.
Control isn't exactly the issue. Unclaimed wilderness is also without law.
Pulled from the blog To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms:
Of course, those who simply wish to avoid any PvP at all will choose to remain within the very high security zones close to NPC settlements where PvP is effectively impossible. Such players will have fewer opportunities to find adventure or to earn treasure than their braver and less risk-averse peers, but they'll be safe from griefers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To rephrase the question: Can I place a Bounty on an Attacker who kills me in the wilderness?So what you are asking is whether wilderness is considered
an area that does not have laws against murder
Was it not clarified enough when they said, in the context of discussing the bounty system, that people who didn't want to get killed should stay in the very high security zones next to NPC settlements (and from later explanation PC lawful settlements)?
Of course, those who simply wish to avoid any PvP at all will choose to remain within the very high security zones close to NPC settlements where PvP is effectively impossible. Such players will have fewer opportunities to find adventure or to earn treasure than their braver and less risk-averse peers
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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You can Bounty and/or Death Curse anyone who kills you* unless you had one of the mitigating flags when you died (Attacker, Criminal, At War, etc.). You can have one Death Curse active at a time, and it costs Reputation instead of Coin. You can have as many Bounties open as you can afford with your cash. You can tie your Death Curse to a Bounty to double up the incentive for skilled bounty hunters (the successful bounty hunter would get potentially better loot from the target AND your cash reward).
If you attack someone unprovoked in a hex that is unclaimed or where murder is not set up as a Crime by the owning settlement, you will certainly get the Attacker flag and probably lose alignment and rep for killing the target. Attacker is likely to expire quickly out of combat, so you may be relatively safe from friends of the victim who show up after the deed is done. However, if murder is a Crime, you would also get the Criminal flag, which is likely to last much longer and allow players to hunt you down after the murder.
We're still hammering out a lot of the specifics, hence all the "likely" notes :).
* This will likely include anyone who wounded you within a certain period of your death so as to avoid someone doing 95% of the damage to you then allowing someone else to finish you off to avoid the bounty. This may also feed into alignment and rep loss but we're still working it out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And does the "attacker" flag mean our victim can place a bounty on you? If so that's fine, I just want to point out that the blog To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms says otherwise
Bounties can only be issued when a character unlawfully kills another. Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system.
So if you guys have changed your stance, that's fine. I think people are just asking for a very straightforward answer to that end, or a straightforward answer that denies that the stance has changed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Stephen
I'm not a huge fan of punishing the victim, to me that says that the high reputation people will be those that let others kill them freely. I would be fine with being able to pay reputation to make the curse stronger than 'necessary', but I feel there should be a base punishment that is still damaging to the attacker, but doesn't punish the victim for seeking reasonable retribution.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Valkenr, I think it's fine how the Death-Curse is set up.
The attacker automatically shifts alignment and loses rep. Straight punishment.
If the victim chooses, he can seek reasonable retribution by placing a bounty to make sure that the attacker dies at least once, much like the victim did. He can even be unreasonable and set unlimited bounties.
Death-curse is just something to use in extreme cases, I think. When a ganker has a specific prized/iconic weapon, you can make him lose what is most dear.
My hope is that when you tie a death curse to a specific bounty, that death curse lasts forever but is only applied when that bounty is collected. This way, a character can't just lay low until the death curse wears off. They WILL be subject to the punishing effects of the death curse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think there needs to be something to allow for some annonymnity if you are an assassin. There is a difference between a griefer and a person who makes a living taking out targets. I'm ok with the alignment hit, and loss of reputation (or gain in infamy), but everyone just happening to look your way knowing you killed Bob yesterday, because of some kind of flag over your head is kinda ridiculous. There has to be some kind of middle ground here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think an important part to making the death curse work is that the target cannot know they have a death curse on them. Unless of course they work in a system where a powerful diviner could uncover it...
In any case, if the target knows they have a death curse, they'll store their best equipment and go out and try to get killed by a bounty hunter. Possibly start looking for someone in their old target's company and then stand around looking all "afk-ish".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think an important part to making the death curse work is that the target cannot know they have a death curse on them.
That's actually a very good idea. Another way to handle it would be to deny them the ability to remove the gear they had equipped when they killed the person who leveled the Death Curse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think there needs to be something to allow for some annonymnity if you are an assassin. There is a difference between a griefer and a person who makes a living taking out targets. I'm ok with the alignment hit, and loss of reputation (or gain in infamy), but everyone just happening to look your way knowing you killed Bob yesterday, because of some kind of flag over your head is kinda ridiculous. There has to be some kind of middle ground here.
But, the fact is Bob is alive and telling people that this person killed me. Now being able to hide your name from other players? I am not sure if that is how it is going to work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can you have a bounty placed on your head if you have received the "attacker" flag, but have not received the "criminal" flag?"
Can you have a bounty placed on your head if you have received the "attacker" flag, but have not received the "criminal" flag?"
Can you have a bounty placed on your head if you have received the "attacker" flag, but have not received the "criminal" flag?"
This is the question we are asking over and over in multiple threads. Is it possible to get a concise answer that will no lead to some people seeing the answer as "yes" and some seeing it as "no"?
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Goblin Squad Member
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They don;t hav e to know your identity, the computer jsut has to keep track of the interaction. If i killed a guy for no reason, but he doesn't know me from Adam, he still should be able to put a bounty on his attacker, without knowing my character's name.
Now, if I'm someone he's interacted with, then he should get a good chance to 'recognize' me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then they'll know for sure they've been death cursed.
What will that matter if they can't "store their best equipment and go out and try to get killed by a bounty hunter"?
For the record, I think it would probably be better to simply make sure they don't know they've been Death Cursed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can you have a bounty placed on your head if you have received the "attacker" flag, but have not received the "criminal" flag?"
Yes. Clearly.
You can Bounty and/or Death Curse anyone who kills you* unless you had one of the mitigating flags when you died (Attacker, Criminal, At War, etc.).
There are caveats, but none of them revolve around whether or not you were "inside lawful territory" when you were killed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think there needs to be something to allow for some annonymnity if you are an assassin. There is a difference between a griefer and a person who makes a living taking out targets. I'm ok with the alignment hit, and loss of reputation (or gain in infamy), but everyone just happening to look your way knowing you killed Bob yesterday, because of some kind of flag over your head is kinda ridiculous. There has to be some kind of middle ground here.
I agree, I think assasination should be able to avoid that with 3 caveats...
1) It's more difficult to setup an assasination then a regular kill
2) There is some chance of "blowing it" and suffering all the penalties a normal killer has
3) "Blowing it" places you at some disadvantage in the encounter that a regular attacker wouldn't have.
I also expect that what the victem of the assasination suffers will be more severe then a normal kill.
Essentialy it's a higher risk, higher reward attack.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Can you have a bounty placed on your head if you have received the "attacker" flag, but have not received the "criminal" flag?"
Yes.
We're of course open to discussion on this (and most) subjects, particularly if you perceive issues that we haven't noticed yet.
Assassination will likely be an exception to a lot of rules on murder, but we're still debating the specifics internally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can you have a bounty placed on your head if you have received the "attacker" flag, but have not received the "criminal" flag?"Yes.
We're of course open to discussion on this (and most) subjects, particularly if you perceive issues that we haven't noticed yet.
Assassination will likely be an exception to a lot of rules on murder, but we're still debating the specifics internally.
Peace out. Good luck with that. Glad to finally be able to extract the truth from you guys like a stubborn dentist.
I thought when Lee said
So any attacker in a wilderness area that is not controlled by any settlement at all will be flagged as a criminal. Someone who can, as the early blogs put it, have bounties re-issued on them forever more so long as the victim can still pay.
That is a very vivid change in the early descriptions of the game concept of one of open PvP where adventure is only for the brave. From what you're saying here, Goblinworks have changed their direction on that big time. To me you're no longer talking about the same game anymore, and that's giving me a lot to think about. But I'm glad to get this information now, rather than after you've taken more of my money.
Actually as I said twice in this thread I'm looking at divorcing the functionality of an Attacker flag from a Criminal flag, so someone who is attacked in the wilderness would get Attacker but not Criminal so we can keep track of who is starting the fight. Criminal would be used more for breaking laws in settlements. Currently Criminal is sort of doing double duty in its functionality, so breaking off the Attacker functionality seems like a good solution.
that he was just focussing on the "criminal" tag, when I was actually more concerned about the bounty system. Glad to have clarification from you, as well as regarding Lee's post.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can you have a bounty placed on your head if you have received the "attacker" flag, but have not received the "criminal" flag?"Yes.
We're of course open to discussion on this (and most) subjects, particularly if you perceive issues that we haven't noticed yet.
Assassination will likely be an exception to a lot of rules on murder, but we're still debating the specifics internally.
Seems like assassins will be happy and bandits will actually have quite a bit danger in their line of work, which is to be expected really if you think about it.
Take him up on his offer about discussing it if you want to see changes Blaeringr.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not just assassins and bandits who will be affected. This is no longer an "Open PvP" game. This is a very fundamental change and I find it absurd that it should take this level of prying to learn about it. This is no longer a game where only the brave will venture far out of town. It's gone from high risk vs reward frontier setting to My Little Pony.
It also rules out using informal assassination contracts. Assassins who don't want even the client to know who they are have just lost out.
Tony's business just lost out.
This is a very big change.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having a bounty on your head means kill a single person. No more. Now you can have that renewed over and over for as long as you play the game. It's possible you will never be free for one moment of PvP. That means their friends, or any bounty hunter, if they choose, can now kill you anywhere and anytime. Ryan explained that the bounty system was meant to deter griefers.
He talked about a system that was to stop people from preying on newer players, or from preying on the same person over and over, or from attacking people who choose to avoid the risk and stay in safe places.
Now they've expanded it to include pretty much any aggression outside of a declared war. And for people who will be in secretive companies that don't engage in war at all, that means pretty much no PvP.
And that's fine if that's what GW wants. But it is not at all the setting they described when they first put out the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not just assassins and bandits who will be affected. This is no longer an "Open PvP" game. This is a very fundamental change and I find it absurd that it should take this level of prying to learn about it. This is no longer a game where only the brave will venture far out of town. It's gone from high risk vs reward frontier setting to My Little Pony.
It also rules out using informal assassination contracts. Assassins who don't want even the client to know who they are have just lost out.
Tony's business just lost out.
This is a very big change.
As a PVE guy, I would say while it certainly is a change, it does not turn it into 'My Little Pony'. You still can get killed repeatedly by the same guy. There are just consequences for the killer (like real life). Any world with scrying and resurrection would have these sort of consequences. But they don't make PVE risk free by any stretch. You have to spend rep to do the death curse (which many PVE types will be loathe to do) and money for the bounty. Real money if you want anyone to take action at whatever level money is 'real'. It gives those of us who suck at combat a chance to see the world while still allowing the dedicated PVP'ers a way to make a living. If I go wildernessing and know I might get jumped, I'll wear my throwaway gear and if I get killed, them's the breaks. But if some guy makes my life a misery for the hell of it, I can pay and get him 'taken care of'. Seems fair to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I asked this in the other thread but didn't get an answer and it wasn't clear to me from the description provided so far...
As an uninvolved 3rd part can you safely attack someone who has a Criminal or Attacker Tag without suffering an Alignment Hit?
Example: You are a Lawfull Good Character, not a Bounty Hunter, just a regular adventurer. You are in an area where 3 people just got murdered. You are not grouped with or aligned to those people. You just encountered the murderer and they have an attacker or criminal tag on them. Can you safely attack them without taking a reputation or alignment hit?
I think the answer is "yes" but that's not entirely clear from the posts so far.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@GrumpyMel, I think it's pretty clear that you can kill another character who is marked as a Criminal or Attacker without having to fear a Bounty or a Death Curse. I think it's also pretty clear that killing another character who is marked as a Criminal will result in your Alignment shifting towards Lawful (and Good?) rather than towards Chaotic Evil.
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Well with the clarification I can see that random Pvp will probably be non existent at this point. I'm all for guild on guild combat but I've always liked the idea if zone and resource control as an honest to god reason to Pvp. What with all the challenges CE sill face (training, equipment, bounties) I'd hardly see a reason to kill someone. Oh and your concept of a nature loving Druid keeping the area safe from destructive miners and loggers...forget it ;)
I wasn't going to say my little pony but another cute children's cartoon comes to mind.
These guilds that are anti griefing may have to find new jobs hehe...I liked the idea of the community policing its own actions (again, we did so in my server on vz) but meh, guess everyone tries to be lawful good now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The system that they are trying to impliment for alignment (IMO) isn't very workable and isn't going to fit well mechanicaly in a fantasy setting.
Does a Lawfull Good Paladin who witnesses a Chaotic Evil Necromancer create an undead or sacrifice a unicorn on a blood alter to an Evil God become Chaotic Evil because they attacked the Necromancer?
Is not part of the whole mission of being a Paladin to "Smite Evil" where they find it?
I think the best way to go would be to scrap the whole alignment system from the attack/not attack mechanic because there are simply too many variables that it can't account for that result in completely counter-intuitive and gamey situations. Simplfy it....
1) Let Players Choose thier Alignment on Character Creation.
2) Adjust players Alignments based on use of SUPERNATURAL POWERS tied to ALIGNMENTS.
3) Adjust players Alignments based upon whether they ATTACK/ALLY with certain classes of NPC's.
4) Adjust players Alignments based upon what Alignment focused buildings (shrines) they utilize.
5) Create "Safe Zones" around NPC controled cities where PvP is essentialy impossible.
6) Outside of these safe zones, it's the Wild West...players can attack each other as they choose and are responsible for enforcing thier own laws.
7) Go back to your origional loot system where the looter doesn't choose... they get 1 or 2 RANDOM items of the corpse and everything (save 1 or 2 items the player chooses to protect) get destroyed.
8) Don't penalize "Evil" characters for being "Evil" just make thier settlements offer different advantages and disadvantages then "Good". Same for "Law" and "Chaos".
YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is my understanding that a Lawful Good Paladin who attacks and kills a flagged Criminal will move his alignment even more towards Lawful Good.
I agree with that. But with the current bounty system they will be paying back an eye for a hundred eyes. In that truer context a so called paladin could be just as easily played by a griefer hiding behind the rules.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr, I don't think that the Criminal flag is permanently associated with a Bounty. As I understand it, if a Lawful Good Paladin kills you while you have the Criminal flag, they gain Lawful Good Alignment. However, your victim's ability to re-up the Bounty on your head does not mean that you keep the Criminal flag, so that a Lawful Good Paladin collecting that Bounty after the Criminal flag wears off might actually move his alignment away from Lawful Good.
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Eh some of what I'm hearing makes me think this is quickly going PvE only. They've already said evil (or is it only chaotic evil?) is gonna have a harder time to get training, gear, etc. they also said things will cost significant more for those characters.
I've a very strong suspicion that pretty much everyone is going to be lawful good. Seeing as how this is a sandbox and not a theme park the randomly generated dungeons will probably get tiresome fairly quickly. If we're so heavily putting penalties in evil and/or Pvp then what do we have left? I suppose we could pretend it's FarmVille or maybe sit around a virtual campfire telling Amazing Stories.
I get not wanting griefing, but I was hoping this would be more a community type response (guilds dedicated to good, etc). It just sounds like there are multiple systems coming into formation to, well quite frankly, heavily discourage Pvp.
If the goal is to get organization vs organization Pvp over resources why not just allow a guild war tag and otherwise make it PvE?