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Probably starting War of the River Kings after the Christmas holiday, and think this one is going to be a winner (well, they're all good).
In retrospect, what advice do people have after running it through? Ways to connect it better to players and/or the final module? Any encounters that need modifying, or ways you would have handled things differently?
I've already perused the sticky forum and adding Jason's challenges that didn't make the module as well as using his archetype stats for Irovetti to make a better challenge. We'll be kingdom building for 2-3 game years after having slacked off.
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Agreed with Philip's points:
The fey should definitely be played up more, and with that dribbling it bits and pieces of the BBEG's hand in things. This is hinted at in Chapter 1, but almost non-existent throughout the rest of the AP except in the backstory. Drop in journals, jaded lovers or something else to add in the otherwise excellent backstory elements that lead up to the BBEG. Early on some of the neatest pieces of the backstory puzzle are not going to be accessible any other way.
Brevoy's descent into civil war is a really good "Game of Thrones"-esque sidebar / additional plot layer that could be interwoven into the fates of the many River Kingdoms themselves. Other material can be dropped in too (a certain lich-hag in Mivon, for example).
Playing up Irovetti's rise to power on the west-southwest of the Stolen Lands - especially if you orchestrate events to play out over 2 or 3 human generations - as a more direct rival can really help. If you decide to expand the scope of things to include a few, some, almost all or all of the River Kingdoms - not to mention the centaurs' conflict with Varnhold - you can really enrich a campaign into something covering decades.
Alice in Wonderland among other fairy tales being integrated has LOTS of potential if you and your group are into theat sort of thing. The Grimms' Tales are highly recommended sources of insipiration that don't require worrying about too much. If you have the Carrion Crown AP, I *highly* recommend liberally pillaging elements from it.
The mass combat system is severely lacking, even with the addition of JBE's supplement. I'd check into recommendations regarding other mass combat systems as the very basic system presented for use ends up with a "war" that won't last a week without severe tinkering.
I cannot emphasize enough to slow things down in Kingmaker. As written you can probably wrap the whole thing up start to finish in less than a decade's time. Granted this is positively glacial by comparison to most APs. Kingmaker deserves a generational approach, so slowing things down in a fashion you deem acceptable borders on mandatory.
It sounds like you're already entering Chapter 5, so I suggest that you figure out how to make the war itself a knock down drag-out affair before they drive his forces back to Pitax after hopefully several months. For the love of the Gawds do NOT let them "solo" an entire army or several by themselves unless they've been lazy slackers that didn't raise an army in the events leading up to the war.
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Good advice. It's been awhile since I've dropped creepy dark fey hints to the group. Might have a visit or two from some old good fey friends, sad because they know what's coming but forbidden by some fey edict to not say. Might have Nyrissa "steal" part of a hex and put that mystery on the party.
We're heavy into Brevoy politics, plan on getting back to that.
The mass combat *does* need revision. Maybe I can stretch out each "round" of mass combat to be longer (4 hours?), and create some smaller armies that will march from Pitax, roving packs to threaten the borders. Fixing mass combat is not my forte, however.
Otherwise, we're in the 6th year since Book 1, expect to be around the 10th year before the 5th book starts.
I'd done about the same thing with mass combat and the 'war' didn't last overlong, battles were over in a day or two tops. I had to place a really nasty army in defense of Pitax to get the PCs to enter Irovetti's palace instead of simply steamrolling the city.
Perhaps resolving each battle-day as "round of ranged, round of melee, day ends" would work better.
Email him and ask him for them yourself. If you search this forum for "tjaden" you should find his email address.
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I added minor template like fey touches on random encounters and some of the fixed encounters. vine tentacles the detach and eventually return to the fay realm, changing several magic items found so that they identify as being fey made, and other small revisions to foreshadow the final boss. i think the foreshadowing was far too light in the modules.
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Just "fixed" one or two minor errors on Irovetti's conversion to Arcane Duelist and have to say "holy smokes" he's just plain nasty if he has advance warning to buff himself.
To deal with "scry and fry," a popular method of my players that I don't mind being used (they just need to know why it's not nice to try and spy on kings), thinking the throne room and maybe Irovetti's bedroom would be permanently teleport trapped. Within the means of a king to protect his castle, and with the keep having been built by a wizard, seems prudent. One or two castings would cover pretty much the entire castle. Thinking the redirect would send creatures to cells in S2 that will be sadistically walled in, no doors, just stone tombs, with an "alarm" to mentally ping Irovetti.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Just "fixed" one or two minor errors on Irovetti's conversion to Arcane Duelist and have to say "holy smokes" he's just plain nasty if he has advance warning to buff himself.
To deal with "scry and fry," a popular method of my players that I don't mind being used (they just need to know why it's not nice to try and spy on kings), thinking the throne room and maybe Irovetti's bedroom would be permanently teleport trapped. Within the means of a king to protect his castle, and with the keep having been built by a wizard, seems prudent. One or two castings would cover pretty much the entire castle. Thinking the redirect would send creatures to cells in S2 that will be sadistically walled in, no doors, just stone tombs, with an "alarm" to mentally ping Irovetti.
Nice. I like it.
btw, in the original the entire palace is under a forbiddance spell that blocks teleport effects (well, actually not the WHOLE palace, but there's one little spot where teleport is legit; guess who knows where it is? :)
So how exactly are the mass combat rules not working?
They've worried me for quite a while now as a DM of a Kingmaker game.
Email him and ask him for them yourself. If you search this forum for "tjaden" you should find his email address.
EDIT: Nevermind, I was searching this thread not this forum. BLUH. My mistake.
Email sent!
Got it =D Jason this is beautiful stuff. Very devious. Approved.
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Aye, based on the draft, I've already revised the Whiterose Abbey ambush. In the module, very lame. A subpar ambush by warrior types? After all his brilliance, and after having seen the party's abilities and heard their exploits, the best Irovetti could come up with is sending his wererat Gaetane and a handful of soldiers to go "boo"? Any 13th level party will wipe the floor with this encounter and yawn. At the very least, Gaetane as a master poisoner makes more sense, and he'll be using purple worm poison.
I like the idea of a cave-in. Unique challenge. The swarm idea is probably too fatal when combined with being buried, but a collapse like that will probably attract the will-o-wisps from below, assuming they're still around, and Gaetane can back off and let them do their work. Even if not, I'm sure Gaetane wouldn't be beyond irritating the shambling mounds nearby and luring them to the scene (before being spirited away in the air by some Heralds using fly potions).
Still more to do...good stuff.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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In the draft, the shambling mounds are already under Gaetane's control with a command plants spell (duration 1 day/level - easy).
When I ran the swarm as part of the cave-in, the party did walk right into it, but one or two people escaped getting buried and engaged Gaetane, Avinash, and the mook wererats.
Being buried was pretty hardcore on top of the horribulous rat swarm, but bear in mind that at 13th level PCs have lots of ways to escape being buried. Besides just raw strength, there's druid wild shape or other polymorph effects, dimension door, gaseous form, teleport, etherealness, and all kinds of other dirty tricks. Also, swarms are dangerous but if someone can fly they're out of the way, and even with all those hit points a few good blasting spells (doing 150% damage) will clean out the swarm within a few rounds.
Gaetane jumping around the ruined abbey and raining arrows down on people (full attacks when he didn't have to move, vital strikes when he did) was pretty harsh. Avinash eventually retreated once the ambush went south.
I'm not saying it's not tough; it's SUPPOSED TO BE tough, but I think it's well within the capabilities of a 13th-14th-level party to survive with a good scare. :)
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True on the cave-in, two of my PCs have dimension stepping as an ability, and they may just pop out. At the very least, they'll appreciate the effort taken to slay them. Looking for a better hook to explore the winery, thinking that finding no altar that enhances anything (despite the historical data otherwise) might make them continue looking. Plus, I'm not sure it's clear without interrogation that the "secret weapon" was all a ruse.
Borrowing and modifying the "Drelev attack" to create missions (protect the front gates, stop the catapults, deal with aerial snipers) that will have affect on the battle (+2 OV and DV per success). Modifying each "round" of battle to last 4 hours of game time so that battles resolve in a day or two rather than a minute or two.
There really isn't a battle plan in the module (couldn't be, not knowing the PC kingdom), so developing a rough plan of attack by Pitax.
I bulked up Irovetti with tactics as per the Arcane Duelist build with DM notes and left out abilities he just won't be using:
Castruccio Irovetti - CR 16 ,XP 76,800 Male human bard (arcane duelist) 16 CN Medium humanoid
Init +3; Senses Perception +18, Darkvision 60’, See Invisibility, Tongues (permanency spells)
Defense
AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+10 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 149 (16d8+74)
Fort +14, Ref +18, Will +14
Speed 30 ft. (fly 60’, Winged Boots)
Melee +3 adamantine keen halberd (rod of razors, 2h) +20/+15/+10 (1d10+9/19–20/x3, P or S, has reach 10’ but can also hit adjacent), if grappling cold iron armor spikes +16/+11/+6 (1d6+6)
Ranged +3 keen adamantine arrows +18/+13/+8 (1d8+3) (full round to fire, usable 5/day)
- Arcane Strike, swift action enhance weapon to +4 damage for one round
- Power Attack, -4 attack, +12 damage (2h)
- Penetrating Strike, attacks ignore first 5 DR unless DR/-
- Combat Reflexes, 3 AoO; Spellbreaker fail cast defensively (+4 DC) provokes AoO
Special Attacks bardic performance 40 rounds/day as swift action (DC 24), free to maintain
• Bladethirst: +4 wpn enhance, prefers Speed (+1), Shock Burst (+2), Ghost Touch (+1), Wounding (+2)
• frightening tune, 30’ save or frightened as long as can hear, immune 24 hrs if save
• inspire courage +3 att/dmg & fear save
• inspire greatness, 3 targets in 30’ get +2d10 hit dice, +2 attack, +1 Fort save
• soothing performance, 4 continuous rounds for mass cure serious (3d8+15) and cures fatigue, sicken, shaken.
Special Defenses: Armor 50% negate sneak or crit, Ring of Spell Turning, Necklace of Adaptation (ignore gases, breathe underwater), Ring of Evasion, Contingency: Dimension Door to T1 if under 50% hit points or incapacitated.
Bard Spells Known (CL 16th; concentration +22, +26 if grappled or casting defensively). Can use Arcane Bond (blade) to cast any 1 spell.
6th (2/day)—overwhelming presence (DC 24) [medium, 16 creatures in 30’ Will save or drop prone to worship, helpless. Each round new save. If fail then save, take 1d6 Wis dmg and staggered 1d4r, if save staggered 1r, lasts 16r], waves of ecstasy (DC 24) [30’ cone, 16r, Will save or stun 1 round and staggered for remainder. If save, staggered 1r]
5th (4/day)—cloak of dreams (DC 23), greater dispel magic, greater heroism, shadowbard [short, 16r, conjure shadow bard to play your bardic performs without duration, move action to change performance]
4th (5/day)—dance of a hundred cuts, primal scream [verbal, 16r, free self from enchant & paralyze effects even if magically paralyzed, as Break Enchantment], shocking image [16m, as mirror image 1d4+5 (max 8) images, if destroyed by melee 2d6 electric dmg], wall of sound [med, con +16r, wall or 20’high ring, deflects bolts and small fliers, 2d4 sonic within 10’, 2d6 +16 to pass, no saves! Silence spell suppresses wall]
3rd (6/day)—blink, charm monster (DC 21), confusion (DC 21), phantom steed, slow (DC 20)
2nd (7/day)—allegro, gallant inspiration, suggestion (DC 20), tactical acumen
1st (7/day)—cure light wounds (DC 17), disguise self, feather fall, grease (DC 17), moment of greatness [50’ burst, 16m, targets can end effect to double morale bonus for one check], saving finale
Statistics : Str 19, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 22
Base Atk +12; CMB +16 (+20 trip); CMD 29 (33 vs. trip), If trip, free AoO. Doesn’t provoke.
Feats: incorporated into stats and abilities, see Jason's original
Skills Acrobatics +19, Bluff +25, Diplomacy +25, Disguise +20, Fly +14, Intimidate +25, Perform (sing, act, dance +20), Sense Motive +3, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +4, Swim +5, Use Magic Device +18
Combat Gear: potions of barkskin +5 (2), oil of magic vestment +4, wand of shield (CL 5th, 10 charges), ring of evasion, ring of spell turning, winged boots;
Other Gear: mithral medium fortification +1 full plate, + 3 Rod of Razors, cloak of resistance +5, belt of physical perfection +4, headband of alluring charisma +6, necklace of adaptation, potion of gaseous form, scroll of stoneskin (CL 7th), scroll of blur (CL 3rd), Dust of Disappearance
Tactics:
1. If ally Jurgg, get Shield Other to share damage, 7h.
2. Activate Ring of Spell Turning (3/day on command, 130m reflects next 9 levels of non-area, non range touch spells)
3. Drink Barkskin potion (+5 natural AC for 120m)
4. Use magic vestment oil on armor (+3 extra enhancement for 16 hours)
5. Use Stoneskin scroll (70m, DR10/adamantine until 70pts absorbed)
6. Cast Greater Heroism (16m, +4 morale att/save, immune fear, +16hp)
7. Cast Shocking Image (16m, 1d4+5 images, if destroyed by melee 2d6 electric)
8. Use Wand of Shield (5m, +4 shield bonus, immune magic missiles)
9. Activate Winged Boots (3/day fly for 5 mins)
10. Use Scroll of Blur (3m, 20% concealment)
11. Cast Tactical Acumen [30’ burst, 16r, when battlefield bonus gained, get extra +3 insight]
12. Cast Shadowbard (16r) to Inspire Courage (+3 competence to attack/dmg, fear saves)
13. Cast Dance of a 100 Cuts (16r),+5 morale to caster’s att, melee dmg, acrobatics, AC, must move 10’ or attack melee or spell ends
14. Activate Bardic Performance, Bladethirst, add shocking burst (+1d6 elec, on crit +2d10 extra on crit), +1 enhance, and either Speed (if haste gone), Ghost Touch (if ethereal enemy) or Wounding (+1 bleed per hit)
15. Cast Allegro [16r, after bardic started, gain Haste as long as maintain it, immediately dismiss to reroll Reflex save. Counter slow]
16. Cast Cloak of Dreams [1r cast, 5’radius Will save or sleep 1 min, 16r] (DC 23)
17. Before engaging, Dust of Disappearance (2d6r greater invis, see invis useless)
18. In combat, swift action Arcane Strike each round (+4 dmg) and Power Attack (-4/+8)(+12 halberd)
Defensive: If fail attack, cast Gallant Inspiration (2nd) [Verbal immediate, close, target on failed attack adds +2d4 to attack roll retroactively]. If fail save, cast Saving Finale (1st), [Verbal Immediate, close range, target affected by bardic perform rerolls failed save, ends performance].
Strategy: If fully prepared, Irovetti will target casters, tripping enemies up to 2x per round (saving one AoO each round). Where possible, he flies above melee attackers using his superior reach. If he has allies occupying the enemy, he will withhold tactics 13-16 and instead use ranged spells, starting with Overwhelming Presence, Slow (on obviously hasted enemies), and Confusion.
FULLY BUFFED
AC 41 (nat +5, armor +13, dex +3, +4 shield, +5 morale, +1 haste, ff 38, touch 23)
Fort +18, Ref +23, Will +18, immune fear, hp 149 +16, CMB +25 (+29 trip), CMD 38 (42 trip)
Melee +4 adamantine keen shocking burst wounding halberd +26/+26/+21/+16 (+2 if invisible) (1d10+34+1d6 electrical/19–20/x3 plus 2d10 electrical).
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Aha, thx. Baron Drelev was a let-down "ruler" fight (and perhaps was meant to be), but Irovetti is going to be a nice contrast. This guy is one-of-the-gang, who raised himself up from nothing and went on to rule a kingdom. Much like the players themselves, he's not going down easily.
More progress: love the jousting rules. The module rules, while adorably simplistic, don't reward riders specialized in well, riding. We have a retired PC cavalier who is the kingdom's ruler who would love a shot to compete, even if he's spent the last 3 years taking levels in Aristocrat.
Using the knight Ambrose, module Ilora, and a captured commander from the first attack (assuming it fails...) to feed info on Whiterose Abbey. Have hinted in the last session that the Spymaster's network is trying to expand into Mivon and Pitax.
Some things I used from Jason's original draft:
Madame Duclarion as a rakshasa. My group's General had been trying to find a dinosaur to use for a mount for a while, so I let him undergo the Siege Terigis to prove himself worthy of making the purchase (I didn't use it as one of the tournaments). To add to the overall creepiness of the menagerie, Madame D. insisted on a pint of his blood as part of the payment (based on a spur-of-the-moment decision to give her a bat head when the party's rogue spied on her), and sent him packing when he refused. After getting drunk the next night, General Potato broke into the menagerie and stole the dinosaur, setting the tent on fire in the process and raising a huge ruckus. The party's charismatic leader used the commotion to spread vampire rumors, and the menagerie mysteriously vanished the next day...
Irovetti's switcheroo. The King is fond of elaborate, somewhat pointless intrigues like this, I decided. (The party's response was a gotcha prank involving alter-self-drag.) I ditched the "informant knight" hook for the Abbey in favor of a complicated plot to link the party to known assassins in the public eye while making it very obvious to them that this was being done, to make them think that Irovetti was setting them up as patsies in the poisoning plot. Far too clever when all that's really needed was to say, "look, haunted ruin!"
The nightmare and the collapsing Abbey. Much more interesting than the wererat gang alone. Fortunately for the party, they approached in disguise and triggered the combat before going in, but the assassins did put up a good fight.
I rewrote things a little, to put the Abbey after the final joust (which had been so built up that I didn't want to disappoint my players) but before the Wining and award ceremony. Irovetti had arranged a back-up plan in case Avinash failed: a proto-bloom from Nyrissa that engulfed the Abbey hillside, trapping everyone inside. Only the nereid could help them escape. With a fey-power handwave as to the rate of time within the bloom, that let me dump the players back out a month after the tournament, giving Irovetti ample time to start the war.
Jason has been kind enough to provide people with a copy of the draft version of Chapter Five that he sent in, prior to Paizo's revisions that produced the final version.
If you send him an email or PM he might still be willing to hand them out. =)