Opinions?
Thinking about catching up despite my anti-Marvel tastes. Is it a waste of money? Does it still feel like you need a bazillion other titles to keep up?
I'd be curious too if there's anything worth picking up. I used to read what was Uncanny X Men that then became just X Men. For awhile it was good and then there was a zillion crossovers where I would read one month's issue and then the next month's issue to discover the cast had entirely changed, I had no idea who anyone was, let alone had any clue as to what was going on. So then I dropped it. Is there any mutant title that is decipherable to someone who is not a complete obsessive fan and where you must have read every X-man book since 1967 to understand anything at all?
On a non X-note, I used to like Fantastic Four when I was younger, and I'm also wondering if that is any good now.
All-New X-Men has been great for its first three issues. Uncanny Avengers not so much. I'm looking forward to Bendis' Uncanny X-Men re-launch.
Don't buy Avengers Arena. It's a cynical marketing ploy with a subject which should not be part of mainstream Marvel Universe comics, IMO.
If you want to get very good comics which have not been re-launched, buy X-Factor. Or Wolverine and the X-Men, although that may not be to everyones taste.
Sadly Ultimate Spiderman without Peter Parker has turned out to be crap, IMO. Nothing against the new kid, but his storylines have not caught my imagination, like Peters' did. Actually I think that the whole Ultimate universe has been flushed down a toilet after Peters' death, but that may just me being cranky.
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Nevermind found out myself Gods I hate it when Marvel gets into this mode
It's not interesting it's not enetertaining. I just find it downright depressing.
Same here. And you can see the dollar signs in the eyes of the marketing people from a mile away. "Hunger Games is a fad right now, so...."
Ugh.
Against my better judgment, I picked up just about every marvel reboot for the hell of it (all of the issues of each title as well). I had extra cash and I was at my local comic shop picking up this weeks DC. :/
Uncanny Avengers
New Avengers
Avengers
Iron Man
Thor
Hulk
Captain America
Fantastic Four
FF
All-New X-Men
X-Men Legacy
Cable and X-Force
I haven't read any of them yet, but I'm going to give it a shot. At first I thought Marvel was doing a limited number of relaunches, but I keep seeing final issues pop up in other titles and the preview order books have relaunch titles coming up like crazy.
Uncanny X-Men, Savage Wolverine, Wolverine, Uncanny X-Force, Superior Spider-Man etc
Some questions....
1) What exactly is X-Men Legacy about? The cover looks like that Legion kid.
2) What is FF about? I like the retro 1963 art style but the book looks kind of stupid. Ms. Thing in particular, human head on the Thing's body, wtf?
3) Cable and X-Force getting replaced by Uncanny X-Force? or will there be two X-Force books?
4) I'll be staying away from Young Avengers/Teen Titans books, but is Secret Avengers worth picking up? The lineup of Widow, Hawkeye, and (movie version?) Nick Fury doesn't sell me, they should rename the book SHIELD, or am I missing something?
Lastly, in a nutshell are all these reboots tied to A vs X? If so a brief summary would help me greatly understand this. :)
Thanks in advance. :)
TBH, I've missed some of my childhood heroes/titles which is why I'm taking a last shot with Marvel. I understand old timer's like me might not like canonical change, I'm kind of ok with it (surprisingly) so far, so please try and give honest opinions without letting the past cloud it. I'm trying to keep an open mind about this.
Overall, I've enjoyed the DC reboot so far, at least with the iconic titles. I'm hoping for a similar experience with Marvel.
Oh yeah, I will not be trying Guardians of the Galaxy or Nova. Rocket Racoon and a little kid with the Nova helmet kind of makes me think it's geared for the kiddies. I miss the old Nova though.
The Defenders looks promising. The last Defenders relaunch was one of the worst I have ever seen. The dialogue alone turned me off.
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FF (Or "Future Foundation") is about what happens during the "approximately four minutes" that the Fantastic Four are gone from the Earth.
Synopsis (Not Spoiler!):
Reed Richards has discovered that his cells (and possibly those of the rest of the Fantastic Four) are starting to degrade. Specifically, Reed's arm has not yet healed (or regained its elasticity) from an injury he suffered pre-book-renumbering. To remedy this, Reed has decided that he needs to figure out why this is happening, and how to fix it. To that end, he has confided in only a few people (one of them being Ant-Man) as to what's going on, and has refitted one of the Negative Zone cruisers the 'Four recently obtained to serve as a "mobile university" for the Fantastic Four, Valeria and Franklin. Reed knows full well that things always go astray when the 'Four leave the Earth, and has recruited "back ups" for the team.
The lady in the Thing Suit is one of Johnny's girlfriends, who has been thrust into this position rather suddenly - mostly because Johnny is an imbecile and completely forgot to ask one of his super powered friends instead.
Reed has figured that the 'Four will only be gone from Earth for roughly four minutes, total time, since the ship they're in can traverse both time and space. Four minutes. He promises.
And, of course, it never goes that easily.
There's your Future Foundation nutshell. :)
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I am reading FF and I am enjoying it. Jemstone's summary is excellent. It is a nice balance of lighthearted pulpy superhero fun with just enough character development to keep it compelling. The only character in the series I'm really familiar with is She Hulk (and I don't even know her that well) but I'm enjoying getting to know the others as well.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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1) What exactly is X-Men Legacy about? The cover looks like that Legion kid.
Yes, it focuses on David's trying to make something of his father's dream, and not lose control of his sanity again.
2) What is FF about? I like the retro 1963 art style but the book looks kind of stupid. Ms. Thing in particular, human head on the Thing's body, wtf?
She's in body armor, and not shown wearing the helmet. One of the 'tension points' is Scott Lang being put in charge of caring for children, so soon after a) coming back from the dead and b) losing his daughter, Cassie.
3) Cable and X-Force getting replaced by Uncanny X-Force? or will there be two X-Force books?
Two X-force books. Cable's X-force is 'on the run' as it were, while I'm not sure of the goal of Storm's X-force.
4) I'll be staying away from Young Avengers/Teen Titans books, but is Secret Avengers worth picking up? The lineup of Widow, Hawkeye, and (movie version?) Nick Fury doesn't sell me, they should rename the book SHIELD, or am I missing something?
Amusingly, Secret Avengers started as a "Heroic X-force" book. Basically, it's heroes doing more covert missions that wouldn't make the news. The first overreaching arc with the Serpent Crown started that way, "Let's find the dang thing before a bad guy does, and keep it from becoming a threat in the first place!" I don't know if it's still going to go that way in the next arc.
Thanks much for the clarifications. I'm on the fence for the secret avengers.
So was there an RSE for Marvel? Or is it just a culmination of stories leading up to it like Superior SpiderMan?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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A bit closer to 'Status Quo is G_d' than a RSE.
A vs. X addressed the issue of the X-men never help the Avengers and vice versa. It also reset the universe in that we now have new mutants, but it is unclear if it repowered the old mutants. (based on solicitations for the new Mighty Defenders book, I think it's "No" since Dani is still unpowered, but we might run into other repowered mutants in other books).
Uncanny Avengers is basically "Avengers: Mutant PR" The team is an Avengers team, but lead by Havok, and will have other mutants on it. Basically it's the happy shiny face of Homo Superior" book.
Oddly, Uncanny Avengers makes sense then. Thanks again.
Loved seeing the promo pic of Dani and Valkryie in the upcoming Defenders.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I actually took this as my cue to stop collecting comics. I've been buying since the 70s, and seriously since the early 1980s, but for me it was just one mega-super-ultra-whatthehellisgoingonifIdon'treadyeverybook crossover too many. The comics industry forgot the bad old days that crashed and almost killed the industry in the early 1990s, and what I could forgive when comics were a buck or less is a lot harder to swallow when comics are 3-4 bucks each.
I had been thinking about it for a while, and I really loved supporting my friendly local comic store, but first DC did it (though the only DC series I followed were the two main Green Lantern books) and then Marvel copycatted the whole reboot thing. Maybe it's the thing that will bring in new blood, but this old blood has had enough.
The two specific events that really bothered me were the death of Nightcrawler and (to a lesser extent) Thor getting beaten up by the Sentry in the Siege miniseries. In both cases, a major character gets whacked somewhere AND IT'S NOT EVEN IN THEIR OWN BLEEPING BOOK. You open up the cover and they're talking about this major event that happened and you're thinking "WTF are they talking about? How can Kurt be dead/Thor get beaten up, when I've been reading every issue of this book and last issue everything was fine." Both of those to me were giant middle fingers to regular, consistent subscribers/followers. They wanted to sell lots of copies of some one-shot or special issue somewhere else, and bless their hearts I hope they did, but I really felt blindsided.
I may still pick up Knights of the Dinner Table, and my teenage son enjoys Deadpool, but my days of regular comics collecting are done. I picked up my last order of my old titles a few weeks ago and haven't even read them yet. I have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of collecting comics over the years, but it as time for me to say goodbye.
Jason if you have been keeping up with GL, it looks like DC has stopped some of that nonsense. The Rise of the Third Army xover running in all the GL books are separate stories ATM. Same with the Joker in the Batbooks (at least for the moment).
I gave up on Marvel long ago myself. I bought all these current books because I wanted to see if I could get " back into it", so to speak. I'll start reading them this weekend. Superior Spidey is Abit distressing sight unseen though. I'm tired of 90 x-books, 45 Avengers titles, crossovers, etc myself too.
I've also been a collector since the late 70s but this past summer I sold off more than 4000 books for a rediculously low price. I've been ok for the most part with the DC relaunch so far. I'll know this weekend if Ill keep going with Marvel.
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I actually took this as my cue to stop collecting comics. I've been buying since the 70s, and seriously since the early 1980s, but for me it was just one mega-super-ultra-whatthehellisgoingonifIdon'treadyeverybook crossover too many.
I feel much the same.
I was already down to Avengers Academy and X-Factor for Marvel, and the two Legion titles for DC, but Avengers Academy is done (and the only title with any of them in it is dedicated to killing them off one by one, and then revealing at the end that they were just robot duplicates), and one of the Legion titles has also been canned, leaving me to one whole title from each of the 'Big Two.'
The 'reboots' only seem to be guaranteeing that the 'below decks' sorts of characters I tend to like are only going to show up in radically new iterations, or as cannon fodder to get blown up.
I've been picking up random titles, just to see if anything hooks me, but the only title that has done so is the independent title the Hypernaturals.
I blame it all on Crisis on Infinite Earths, which I liked back at the time, and then later grew to loathe as it was the excuse DC used to reboot the Legion, time and again, unsuccessfully, utterly fragmenting it's fanbase and dropping it from one of DCs two hottest properties (along with the Wolfman / Perez Teen Titans) to somewhere around it's 47th... Now that they've finally completely undone Crisis (Barry is back, Kara Zor-El is back, the multiverse is back...), it's become even more of a colossal waste of time.
I'm just picking up trades at this point. Getting back trades of X-factor, completing my New Mutants, Birds of Prey, Etc.
I'm one of those who preferred Barry dead, because his sacrifice meant something.
Barry and Hal. Can't forget Hal's sacrifice (and trip to redemption as The Spectre), which has now been completely undone and rendered meaningless.
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Barry and Hal. Can't forget Hal's sacrifice (and trip to redemption as The Spectre), which has now been completely undone and rendered meaningless.
I'd be more of a fan if Hal and Barry hadn't come back only to be portrayed the way they have been by Geoff Johns, with Barry a bit of a dunce who the rest of the League consider a naive joke, and Hal a smarmy self-absorbed twit who almost single-handedly undermines the Justice League with his inability to play well with others.
The one upside of a beloved character being dead is that they can't be retconned into being juvenile jerks.
Barry and Hal. Can't forget Hal's sacrifice (and trip to redemption as The Spectre), which has now been completely undone and rendered meaningless.I'd be more of a fan if Hal and Barry hadn't come back only to be portrayed the way they have been by Geoff Johns, with Barry a bit of a dunce who the rest of the League consider a naive joke, and Hal a smarmy self-absorbed twit who almost single-handedly undermines the Justice League with his inability to play well with others.
The one upside of a beloved character being dead is that they can't be retconned into being juvenile jerks.
I'd say judging by the words spoken by Mr. Morris, myself, and yourself Set, we're all in the same camp regarding Barry and Hal.
I've said before that I have a sort of love-hate with Geoff Johns, and this is part of it, really.
Back on the topic of Marvel, though... Future Foundation and Fantastic Four are my only two mainstream-Marvel titles any more. I get a lot more enjoyment from Ultimate Spider Man and Ultimate X-Men.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yes indeed. It's one of the reasons I am fearful to see Cassandra Cain, Steph Brown, Donna, Wally, Scandal, Jeanette etc. 'come back' in the new 52. Especially given the hatred that certain editors seem to have for characters. I want Steph back as Spoiler and her relationship with Tim (since we're not getting her as Batgirl), I don't want a drug addled crack whore in an ally and be told "That's Stephanie Brown! Happy now!"
It's like with seeing the Alpha FLight characters being used by writers who have no clue. Madison Jeffries being in love with machines? Huh? Lillian Crawley being uselessly killed by someone who her power specifically protects her from? Kara teleporting from California to Canada to be a super villian, when she hated everything her dad stood for?
I like X Factor because it can be funny and important. I liked Secret Six because, even with all the betrayals and hatred and everything, they were a dysfunctional family. One of the most touching scenes for me in that book is after JEanette takes Lianna to the hospital, and Scandal kills her attacker, she turns to Thomas, Floyd, and Bane and says "You three men, the only men I love. One of you, hold me."
For me, the hero's journey is as important as the trip. That's one of the reasons I liked (preboot) Dick Greyson. We saw him take the hero's journey from sidekick to hero to leader, then finally to mentor and taking up his mentor's mantle.
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For me, the hero's journey is as important as the trip. That's one of the reasons I liked (preboot) Dick Greyson. We saw him take the hero's journey from sidekick to hero to leader, then finally to mentor and taking up his mentor's mantle.
Yeah, there's a point where change is great, and without it a character stagnates, weighted down by all the stuff that editorial will not change (like Xavier being crippled and re-crippled over and over, to put him back in the chair, like the chair was the only thing that mattered about the character), and a point where the change is so huge that it might as well have been a new character (nuDC Ravager/Rose Wilson or Superboy, among other things).
Dick trading up from the sidekick shortpants to Nightwing way back in the Judas Contract was, for me, an iconic moment that made him newly relevant. Turning him into the, I dunno, fourth?, person to wear the Batman cowl was, IMO, a sidelining of the adult hero he'd already been for years. Sure, he's got more business wearing it than Jean Paul Valley, from a narrative standpoint, but it's still a demotion, in my eyes, from his own man, to a stand-in for someone else.
Oracle's transition back to Batgirl, IMO, is another step down. Lemonade was made from the lemons of her crippling, and she became a unique and indispensible part of the DCU, a role that makes you hit your head and say 'why the hell didn't we have one of these already?', and now she's back to being one of the roughly seventy bajillion Bat-themed vigilantes karate chopping their way through the Gothan nights. I would have loved for her to get back the use of her legs, and *choose* to continue on as Oracle, since she made much more of a difference as Oracle than she ever did throwing batarangs at people.
But I'm sure the line of 'not enough change' and 'too much change' is in different places for everyone, so it's not like I can blame DC or Marvel for not reading my mind. :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ah, and that's where we split. :-)
I'm not a 'Granmt Morrison is g_d' fanboy, but I liked how he wrote BatDick. He made it clear that Dick had his own style and was still himself under the cowl (well, after some growing pains).
It was much better than the attempts for Donna to take up Diana's lasso.
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I had been thinking about it for a while, and I really loved supporting my friendly local comic store, but first DC did it (though the only DC series I followed were the two main Green Lantern books) and then Marvel copycatted the whole reboot thing. Maybe it's the thing that will bring in new blood, but this old blood has had enough.
Marvel's relaunch is NOT a reboot. All of the titles are following up from things setup in earlier stories whether those stories are crossovers (Avengers vs. X-men) or the prior volumes of the regular titles. It's not a reboot. DC is a reboot where they have literally rebooted their universe and that most of the characters that exist now in the new 52 are not the same iterations that existed five years ago.
I've been reading Marvel again regularly since the introduction of Marvel Max (Black Panther, Daredevil, Fury, etc) and Avengers again since Bendis started on the book. And the characters are the same characters for the most part.
Marvel has a penchant for relaunching titles frequently to get new number ones out in the world. It also helps that Marvel usually is able to keep one writer/creator on a book for the entirety of the volume of a book. Bendis was on Avengers from 2005 to 2012 (2 volumes) Fraction was on Invincible Iron Man from 2008 to 2011 (1 volume). Hickman was on Secret Warriors 2009 -2011, Fantastic Four and FF from 2009 -2012. Peter David has been on X-Factor since 2005, and that's not including his late 80's early 90's run.
The Marvel characters go through changes and the status quo changes for years at a time but they arent reboots. I personally like when things go all sideways. I'm not a fan of reverting to the status quo without ramifications. So yeah, MAKE MINE MARVEL.
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Ah, and that's where we split. :-)
I'm not a 'Granmt Morrison is g_d' fanboy, but I liked how he wrote BatDick. He made it clear that Dick had his own style and was still himself under the cowl (well, after some growing pains).
It was much better than the attempts for Donna to take up Diana's lasso.
Agreed I also loved the "tension?" between Dick and Damien and how Damien challenges him at every given opportunity. Is he a brat? Yes, but he honestly felt that he was a better example of what his father's legacy should be (he was wrong of course).
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I'll agree that the Marvel renumbering isn't technically a reboot in the way the DC thing was, but it just left a bad taste in my mouth. It seemed like a pointless exercise.
Also, while I like character growth and change, the few years has seemed like a blender with characters switching teams, personal relationships (friendships, marriages, etc.) seeming to get switched up for no good reason, X-Men hopping to the Avengers and vice versa... I dunno. It's the ultimate YMMV I suppose, but none of those things appealed to me in the slightest, and they seemed to be accelerating. Combine that with crossover-mania that rendered even stories that might have interested me in concept almost incomprehensible to try following... bleh.
Long story short, I didn't feel like I was getting $50-60 worth of entertainment a month out of my comics habit. I still love superheroes, but... yeah.
P.S. I've also found Seattle Public Libraries and King County Libraries have a very large stock of trade paperbacks, which has allowed me to go back and reread some stories I read parts of (Blackest Night, Annihilation, the Siege, Secret Invasion) and some I had never heard of but seemed interesting (a great Justice Society miniseries where the Nazi super-soldiers or whatever they were called took them out and established the Fourth Reich).
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I hate reboots. Hate. Hate. Hate.
Word.
There are three fully distinct 'Legions of Super-Heroes' now, and there are fans of all three (well, two of the three, anyway...), which creates a core of dissatisfaction with *anything* DC does with the franchise, since *someone* is always stuck reading about a Legion they don't like, while 'their Legion' lies abandoned.
And, even beyond that, the 'current' Legion has many points of divergence from the 'classic' Legion, even if they are *supposed* to be the exact same team, thanks to Geoff Johns not doing the research and getting a bunch of stuff wrong (or blithely changing stuff and lying about it being the original continuity, hard to say which, but I'd rather assume a mistake than an intentional deception!), which has become 'Geoff-canon,' turning even the classic team into a weird sort of 'soft reboot.'
I'm actually kind of suprised that, in his adventures through time, that Bruce didn't have a bunch of run-ins with Vandal Savage. That would have made a neat connective thread, and introduced the notion of Vandal Savage as some sort of meta-nemesis for Bats, in an 'Eternal Champion' sort of way. Perhaps R'as al-Ghul's Lazarus Pits might have been retroactively tied to Vandal Savage in some way, building on that sort of idea.
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If you're going to do a reboot, you need to have a clean slate--not "this part of history exists but this doesn't" to such a complicated extent not even a flowchart could accurately display all that's going on in the world. Everyone flatly gets new origin stories, new histories, new everything. If you're not willing to bite that bullet, then don't try to "fix" parts of the world and leave others alone--especially when often what is being "fixed" isn't broken.
I think it is possible to take a step back and do an introductory story every once in awhile to get a new reader interested, but that doesn't have to come with a pile of "new history" that confuses other readers.
Barry and Hal. Can't forget Hal's sacrifice (and trip to redemption as The Spectre), which has now been completely undone and rendered meaningless.I'd be more of a fan if Hal and Barry hadn't come back only to be portrayed the way they have been by Geoff Johns,
Hal Jordan is my all time favorite, and I LOVE that he's back. In fact Rebirth was one of the best books I'd read in that decade. The amount of ancient GL lore that I recognized in that story made it all the sweeter.
As for the spectre? That chapter is better left forgotten. It was the only Hal book in 25 years I simply couldn't stomach...
Barry??? He's also my favorite flash... And I've waited YEARs for him to come back...
but this ressurction was crap. He was a useless cameo in a crappy crossover, and then his own Rebirth comic was lousy too. I was VERY disappointed that THIS is what I'd waited so long for... then less then a year later he has a new costume and personality... >.<
Marvel's relaunch is NOT a reboot. All of the titles are following up from things setup in earlier stories whether those stories are crossovers (Avengers vs. X-men) or the prior volumes of the regular titles. It's not a reboot. DC is a reboot where they have literally rebooted their universe and that most of the characters that exist now in the new 52 are not the same iterations that existed five years ago.
Marvel had a reboot somewhere in the late 90's to early 2000's.... they just didn't announce it. There have been so many retcons and character changes, I simply don't recognize these characters anymore. Sometime between Civil War and Secret invasion it came to a head for me and I just dropped out. Daredevil taking up leadership of the Hand was a final straw on a book I've got two long boxes FULL of...
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Marvel had a reboot somewhere in the late 90's to early 2000's.... they just didn't announce it. There have been so many retcons and character changes, I simply don't recognize these characters anymore. Sometime between Civil War and Secret invasion it came to a head for me and I just dropped out. Daredevil taking up leadership of the Hand was a final straw on a book I've got two long boxes FULL of...
No, they had no reboot, you are using the wrong word. It's called "continuity", as in they had on-going storylines which <gasp> changed some of their characters through story.
Not that all those changes were great, but to say "reboot", when what really happened is just characters evolving through story events seems quite wrong to me.
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The Marvel Now books are pretty good. Some of the folks above have mentioned the really goos ones, All New X-Men and New Avengers are great so far. And the fantastic Four and FF are really fun. If you haven't read Wolverine and the X-Men you should, it has all the great components of creative comic writing and excellent art. The new Deadpool book is crazy and awesome, written by comedien Brian Posehn.
As stated Marvel did not reboot their universe, they simpley shook up artists and books, challenging the bullpen to write from new fun perspectives. The also \ created a few new titles for the universe to evolve.
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I'm not a big fan of Hal Jordan and never was, except in the case of Emerald Dawn which was a pretty decent story. Kyle Rainer was MY Green Lantern just like Wally West was MY Flash.
I started reading DC with New Teen Titans. Then other titels like Batman and the Outsiders, Warlord, Omega Men and Legion of Super Heroes. After Crisis I started buying DC regularly mostly because I used to be a huge John Byrne fanboy and he was doing both Action Comics AND Superman at the time. George Perez was on Wonder Woman and I was a huge fan of his as well.
But the Legion of Superheroes turned out to be my favorite post crisis book BECAUSE so much had changed and for the worse. Anytime there is a bad situation there's a hero / heroes to dig themselves out of it. The deeper the hole? The better the story.
New 52 was a jumping off point as far as I was concerned I dont hate DC or their creators. I just understand that it wasn't for me anymore and it started well before New 52 when the decided to bring back both Hal Jordan and then Barry Allen Who still has one of the BEST and most meaningful heroic deaths (Crisis on Infinite Earths #8) EVER next to Phoenix (in Uncanny X-Men #137).
It wasn't like Wally West was some substitute, he was a true Legacy hero (which was another thing that I used to love about DC) and had been The Flash for over 20 years. Just to go and bench him in order to bring back Barry. UGH.
And dont get me started on Hal Jordan. When Johns brought him back the only thing that I could think of was "Well, those HEAT nutjobs won. You've just validated every disgusting thing that was said from them to Ron Marz and his wife and child. Thanks alot."
If you dont know who HEAT was, it was a loose organization of Hal Jordan fanboys who were very vocal about Hal jordan going bad and being replaced by Kyle Rainer. They proceeded to threaten the writer at the time (Ron Marz) and even went as far to threaten his kid. When I say that I hate these people? I mean it in a way in that I wouldn't piss on these people if they were on fire. I feel the same way about the same pieces of excrement who were threatening Dan Slott over Spider-Man a few weeks ago. If you're making threats to someones life or their child's life over a COMIC BOOK CHARACTER? There is no hope for you. Throw yourself into Mount Doom and spare the rest of us from your existence.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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RE: HEAT haters.
I have to agree. I dislike Dan Dido's (gods it's hard to not intentionally misspell that name!) seeming hatred of Wally, Steph, and Cass. It's not even shelving the characters, it's the active hatred. Smallville was going to have a female 'nightwing' and Brian Q Miller (who I LOVED on Batgirl) was going to use Steph. Once that leaked, editorial clamped down and said it had to be Barbara. One of the (lame) defenses of regressing Babs was that Barbara Gordon was the most recognizable Batgirl because of other media. When it was pointed out that Wally was the most recognizable flash (because of JLU/Superman/Batman etc) and that Dick or Tim would be the most recognizable Robin (again, because of the media) they said that was different. (And don't get me started on the awesomeness of John Stewart in the alternate media) But I don't want him dead, or his family dead.
Likewise, I don't like the whole OMD/SpOck business, but don't wish harm on Dan slot. I just spend my (limited) money elsewhere.
What scares me? The people you see on Forums who support Scott going all supervillian. Especially in A v X. "Look, they're feeding the world! They've brought world peace! Sure there's no free will, and if you oppose them you get taken out, but they've made the world a paradise!" Um... no.
Marvel had a reboot somewhere in the late 90's to early 2000's.... they just didn't announce it. There have been so many retcons and character changes, I simply don't recognize these characters anymore. Sometime between Civil War and Secret invasion it came to a head for me and I just dropped out. Daredevil taking up leadership of the Hand was a final straw on a book I've got two long boxes FULL of...No, they had no reboot, you are using the wrong word. It's called "continuity", as in they had on-going storylines which <gasp> changed some of their characters through story.
Not that all those changes were great, but to say "reboot", when what really happened is just characters evolving through story events seems quite wrong to me.
That was mostly tongue in cheek... but still, Retcon is when you go back, change something in their past, and then claim it was ALWAYS there.
Marvel has been doing that for Decades. If you change the history of ONE character... it's a Retcon.
If you change EVERY character... it's a reboot ;)
There really aren't any 'main' characters that are still the same character/personality that they were in the 80's... or even the 90's. Everyone's gone dark and gritty and worst of all, they've been retconned to where they ALWAYS were... >.<
I was a fan for YEARS.... but eventually they just went too far and became too unrecognizable :(
RE: HEAT haters.
I have to agree. I dislike Dan Dido's (gods it's hard to not intentionally misspell that name!) seeming hatred of Wally, Steph, and Cass. It's not even shelving the characters, it's the active hatred. Smallville was going to have a female 'nightwing' and Brian Q Miller (who I LOVED on Batgirl) was going to use Steph. Once that leaked, editorial clamped down and said it had to be Barbara. One of the (lame) defenses of regressing Babs was that Barbara Gordon was the most recognizable Batgirl because of other media. When it was pointed out that Wally was the most recognizable flash (because of JLU/Superman/Batman etc) and that Dick or Tim would be the most recognizable Robin (again, because of the media) they said that was different. (And don't get me started on the awesomeness of John Stewart in the alternate media) But I don't want him dead, or his family dead.
Likewise, I don't like the whole OMD/SpOck business, but don't wish harm on Dan slot. I just spend my (limited) money elsewhere.
What scares me? The people you see on Forums who support Scott going all supervillian. Especially in A v X. "Look, they're feeding the world! They've brought world peace! Sure there's no free will, and if you oppose them you get taken out, but they've made the world a paradise!" Um... no.
EXACTLY. You hit the nail right on the head.
I dont agree with all editorial decisions made on books that I read or properties that I enjoy. Hell I hated how Civil War was handled in the core book. I didn't recognize how half those characters were acting, ESPECIALLY Iron Man. But I did enjoy the hell out of the stories that came out of Civil War. But that doesnt mean that I'm going to start picking fights and physically threatening the editors and the writers.
I just spend my money on stuff that I like and want to support. Hell, that's one of the reasons that I'm here on Paizo's boards and not elsewhere.
Marvel had a reboot somewhere in the late 90's to early 2000's.... they just didn't announce it. There have been so many retcons and character changes, I simply don't recognize these characters anymore. Sometime between Civil War and Secret invasion it came to a head for me and I just dropped out. Daredevil taking up leadership of the Hand was a final straw on a book I've got two long boxes FULL of...No, they had no reboot, you are using the wrong word. It's called "continuity", as in they had on-going storylines which <gasp> changed some of their characters through story.
Not that all those changes were great, but to say "reboot", when what really happened is just characters evolving through story events seems quite wrong to me.
That was mostly tongue in cheek... but still, Retcon is when you go back, change something in their past, and then claim it was ALWAYS there.
Marvel has been doing that for Decades. If you change the history of ONE character... it's a Retcon.
If you change EVERY character... it's a reboot ;)
There really aren't any 'main' characters that are still the same character/personality that they were in the 80's... or even the 90's. Everyone's gone dark and gritty and worst of all, they've been retconned to where they ALWAYS were... >.<
I was a fan for YEARS.... but eventually they just went too far and became too unrecognizable :(
Marvel isn't the only one to do this. And if you're seriously trying to make that argument I'd argue that retcons are pretty much a staple of superhero books, Period.
DC has done this as well. Time Trapper and the Legion of Super Heroes anyone? Mon El and Superboy?
Hell, Hal Jordan's return is based on one HUGE retcon. He was "infected" by Parallax which caused him to go bad and do what he did? Please.
I'm also thinking about the changes in a few Marvel characters that have made them completely different than they were. Daredevil which is a great read isnt really grim and gritty anymore. Spider-Man? The Hulk? Wolverine has actually lightened up a bit depending on what book he's in of course. Cyclops? You can say that with everthing that has happened to mutant over the past 8 or 9 years that it was a matter of time before he became this militant style extremist leader. When Magneto is telling you "Uh Scott youre beginning to sound like me." and not in a good way then well...
Alot of this, with a few exceptions (I agree that One More Day was soooooooo un Peter Parker like that it put me off 616 Spider-Man for a long time) the characters have changed and grown with the times. Not only ours but the changes and times in their respective universes.
I dont want things to stay the same that they were when I was 10 or 14 or 18 years old. The characters should change. relationships should change. And to consider that change a reboot? Well I disagree.
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I had been thinking about it for a while, and I really loved supporting my friendly local comic store, but first DC did it (though the only DC series I followed were the two main Green Lantern books) and then Marvel copycatted the whole reboot thing. Maybe it's the thing that will bring in new blood, but this old blood has had enough.
Marvel's relaunch is NOT a reboot. All of the titles are following up from things setup in earlier stories whether those stories are crossovers (Avengers vs. X-men) or the prior volumes of the regular titles. It's not a reboot. DC is a reboot where they have literally rebooted their universe and that most of the characters that exist now in the new 52 are not the same iterations that existed five years ago.
I've been reading Marvel again regularly since the introduction of Marvel Max (Black Panther, Daredevil, Fury, etc) and Avengers again since Bendis started on the book. And the characters are the same characters for the most part.
Marvel has a penchant for relaunching titles frequently to get new number ones out in the world. It also helps that Marvel usually is able to keep one writer/creator on a book for the entirety of the volume of a book. Bendis was on Avengers from 2005 to 2012 (2 volumes) Fraction was on Invincible Iron Man from 2008 to 2011 (1 volume). Hickman was on Secret Warriors 2009 -2011, Fantastic Four and FF from 2009 -2012. Peter David has been on X-Factor since 2005, and that's not including his late 80's early 90's run.
The Marvel characters go through changes and the status quo changes for years at a time but they arent reboots. I personally like when things go all sideways. I'm not a fan of reverting to the status quo without ramifications. So yeah, MAKE MINE MARVEL.
I know I'm aware it's not a reboot, however when you take Peter Parker out of Spider-man, I'm out.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I know I'm aware it's not a reboot, however when you take Peter Parker out of Spider-man, I'm out.
I had been thinking about it for a while, and I really loved supporting my friendly local comic store, but first DC did it (though the only DC series I followed were the two main Green Lantern books) and then Marvel copycatted the whole reboot thing. Maybe it's the thing that will bring in new blood, but this old blood has had enough.
Marvel's relaunch is NOT a reboot. All of the titles are following up from things setup in earlier stories whether those stories are crossovers (Avengers vs. X-men) or the prior volumes of the regular titles. It's not a reboot. DC is a reboot where they have literally rebooted their universe and that most of the characters that exist now in the new 52 are not the same iterations that existed five years ago.
I've been reading Marvel again regularly since the introduction of Marvel Max (Black Panther, Daredevil, Fury, etc) and Avengers again since Bendis started on the book. And the characters are the same characters for the most part.
Marvel has a penchant for relaunching titles frequently to get new number ones out in the world. It also helps that Marvel usually is able to keep one writer/creator on a book for the entirety of the volume of a book. Bendis was on Avengers from 2005 to 2012 (2 volumes) Fraction was on Invincible Iron Man from 2008 to 2011 (1 volume). Hickman was on Secret Warriors 2009 -2011, Fantastic Four and FF from 2009 -2012. Peter David has been on X-Factor since 2005, and that's not including his late 80's early 90's run.
The Marvel characters go through changes and the status quo changes for years at a time but they arent reboots. I personally like when things go all sideways. I'm not a fan of reverting to the status quo without ramifications. So yeah, MAKE MINE MARVEL.
I think that sums it up for me too (in concept - I've only rarely picked up Spider-Man's book, though I like him as a character). Characters can change, grow, and evolve, but when they veer away from the quintessence of the character they can lose a lot of appeal for someone who is invested in that character.
You *can* maintain the essence of a character even with a new person wearing the suit - see Jim Rhodes as Iron Man (with Tony Stark as a separate character rather than wearing the suit) or Wally West as the Flash, or you can branch out a character in a new and explicitly different way (like introducing someone like Guy Gardner as Green Lantern - not my personal cup of tea, but I can see where they were going with it). Maybe in comics sometimes they try to make changes, but not quite big enough changes to really change the character all the way, which ends up feeling like the new version is just a warped version of the old rather than its own wholly new thing. Rather like a musical note that's just a LITTLE off-key. Not different enough to be its own note, it just sounds like nails on a chalkboard, that it's just not right.
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Hell, Hal Jordan's return is based on one HUGE retcon. He was "infected" by Parallax which caused him to go bad and do what he did? Please.
That was particularly galling because Hal Jordan's entire friggin' 'schtick' revolved around him being the willpoweriest willpowerer on the entire planet, and, oh, he went bad because someone mindjobbed him?
The entire takeaway from Rebirth was that Abin Sur's ring screwed up and should have picked Guy Gardner instead?
And I'm pretty sure that wasn't the takeaway Geoff intended for me to 'takeaway...'
I found Jean Grey's resurrection, solely so that they could use her in the new X-Factor title, similarly annoying. It messed with her characterization (and they ended up getting bored with her and killing her off again anyway) and it messed with Scott's characterization (and he didn't recover from that until post-Jean, with Emma, only to be more recently dragged back into the mud and left there, IMO, pretty much unsavable, in the same way that Civil War, again, IMO, left Reed Richards and Tony Stark pretty much unsavable).
Marvel's in the grip of deconstructionists who *HATE* the entire concept of superheroes or goodness or heroism in general, and want to tear it all down and make everyone not just flawed believable humans with the occasional feet of clay, but so gritty and damaged and totalitarian that the tagline 'great power, great responsibility' has been replaced with 'power corrupts, there's no such thing as heroes.'
DC's in the grip of an ascended fanboy who wants to recycle the stories of his youth, even if that means wiping out the thirty years of continuity (and characters, and character *development*) that has occured since then.
It's a great time to be a short term fan, who doesn't know or care who any of these characters are, and is pumped to see them beaten to the death by the Sentry or set on fire by Dr. Light. Not such a great time for long-term fans...
And this, folks, is why I think that Ultimate Spidey and Ultimate X-Men will now and forever be my favorite Marvel lines.
(Similarly, Earth-2 and World's Finest from the New52, for the same reasons.)
Familiar characters, sure. Different, certainly. But with their own continuities and their own stories and their own rise-and-fall arcs. And above all, (mostly) untouched by the "main" continuity of their respective universes.
Rargh.
Hell, Hal Jordan's return is based on one HUGE retcon. He was "infected" by Parallax which caused him to go bad and do what he did? Please.
Ohhhhh that story was BRILLIANT though... It tied into such old-time continuity that I loved it!
Back around 1988... they actually HAD the story where Sinestro was trapped inside the power battery... Hal went inside to fight him... and they DID release the Yellow impurity. This action DID destroy 99% of the corps leading to only Hal, Guy, and john Stewart with chargable rings in the 90's... Next time you see Hal he has the grey streaks and is full of 'self-doubt' and 'wandering the countryside'...
There was no mention of the yellow impurity being ALIVE... or actually INFECTING Hal at the time... or years later, but it was based on an ACTUAL GL story...
Having Johns pull all those little peices together were a blast to read.
When all was said and done, it was MORE believable then Emerald Twilight.
That story that said Hal just went nuts and in three issues murdered EVERYTHING he ever believed in... Despite the fact that 1) more rings do not make you have more willpower. 2) The rings FORBID you from killing... and a numerous differnent things that were epic level retcons.
I was never a supporter of HEAT. It was in my pre-Internet days, so I only heard about it afterwards. I also NEVER condone threats against a man and/or his family. That's crossing some serious lines and should be prosecuted...
However, I really DID hate Ron Marz back in those days. The casual disregard that was heaped on Hal was downright insulting to his fans. It was mostly company dictate, and he was just a tool to do it... but really there were BETTER ways to 'change the status quo'. Superman got a year worth of 'dying' and Batman got a 12 issue 'KnightFall.' Hal got 3 issues of acting drastically out of character, doing things that the pre-established rules said were impossible. And then without even getting to go out like a hero.... he becomes a psychotic villain.