Goblin Squad Member
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Occasionally I'd like to roleplay the stereotypical lone wolf assassin type, however, I don't especially enjoy ganking lone travelers (even if my character would). Will there be ways to maintain an evil alignment without pvp?
First off. Why not be lawful or neutral evil? I'm assuming your assassin honors their contracts?
But secondly I would be very surprised / disappointed if there isn't. I'm assuming killing good aligned NPCs is evil and that you can commit acts of sabotage and robbery outside PVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ya'll, CE is like Hannibal Lector, Ed Gein, Dalmer, Manson, and the GE Board of Directors.
You gotta understand, this alignment is bad even to the bad guys. The problem is we're trying to apply rational constraints on an alignment that was 1. never envisioned to be playable by a PC, and 2. is outside rationality.
A CE "lone wolf assassin" would just as likely kill the contractee and take his purse than waste time hunting the mark. And once word got out that you roll CE-style, no body would offer you contracts for fear of you betraying them. You'd be lone-wolf for sure...unemployed. LOL
Assassins are calculated and precise. CE is not that. CE is a hurricane of suffering unable to feel empathy and remorse for anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Rafkin
In the NPC starting cities (though maybe less-so in Thornkeep, the wretched hive of scum and villiany), the NPC guards there are a special type called a Marshal. Marshals are god-like killing-machines that will effectively stop PvP from happening in these cities and their near surroundings.
We have also recently been told that PC cities will be able to hire NPC guards. We so far know that they won't be as powerful or omnicient as the marshals. We don't know what their range may be, either.
@Drakhan Valane
That is a really great idea! It would be cool if the settlement had to expend resources to 'recruit more guards,' too. Even if not, I suspect that there will be various NPCs that you can encounter while adventuring that can change your alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Drakhan Valane
That is a really great idea! It would be cool if the settlement had to expend resources to 'recruit more guards,' too. Even if not, I suspect that there will be various NPCs that you can encounter while adventuring that can change your alignment.
The 'recruit more guards' bit was part of what I was thinking. It would be a chaotic way to harrass lawful settlements and be a dirty way to fight a war. Either the settlement turtles up more or they send out their companies to deal with the problem. Or maybe they pay for more expensive guards or for larger patrols. Regardless, it's a higher cost for them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Chaotic Evil assassin? Meh, I'm not impressed with that part of your resume. Tell you what, we'll call you. K thx bye.
Yup, just like the chaotic nuetral mercs are the worst ones you can buy. The good, expensive mercs are LN or N. It's true that Gygax never envisioned CE players, but then again he never envisioned gankers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the PFRPG, you have to be Evil of some shade to have the Assassin PrC (Prestige Class). In fact, one requirement is that you kill someone for the sole purpose of becoming an Assassin. So this game will likely make assassinations Evil.
Yes. Putting an assassination contract on someone is supposed to be evil as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A CE assassin could still function just fine. They adhere to the contract, but they also lie, cheat, betray and steal to make it happen.
And, after the contract, if the employer didn't give a bonus for his hard work, the CE guys says "well that's okay. Thanks anyway!" and then goes and rats them out to a rival, convincing them to set up a contract against his former boss.
CE does not have low Wisdom & Intelligence as prerequisites. The Joker, once again, is ideal. If you can convince the Joker that doing something is in his best interests, he'll do it. It'll be messy and insane, but very much done.
So a CE assassin is a sort of "mad dog" assassin you'd hire to make a mess and make a statement. Pay some up front, promise a good reward at the end, and then deny all responsibility when the whole city burns down down as a side effect to the target's demise.
Pretty much, the LE assassin is the guy who (if he doesn't like you) will screw you with the details and make you hang yourself, or (if he likes you) work well and loyally while slowly gathering blackmail on you for his own protection.
The CE assassin is the guy who kills the target, but also invite carnage upon anyone and everyone else he can get away with in the process. They, too can be loyal, if unpredictable. Or they can be a nightmare. But to be an assassin worth anything, even a CE assassin needs to have a good rep... they're just more reserved in dealing with clients. That's INT and WIS shining through.
CE assassins are for mayhem, LE for precision. Each has their use.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am not really seeing how assassination can be done well. From my understanding, the whole point of assassinations is to silence someone. In PFO (so far), that just isn't going to happen: That guy you "assassinated" will respawn, put a bounty on you, and at worse lose some goods.
With that in mind, I do think there will be ways for people to create contracts to do certain things to ruin someone (IE Do not allow Freddy Commerce to leave and create a profit.) Of course, if you are Freddy Commerce, you may try again to leave, perhaps with less goods. If you still are being ganked by Mark Assassin, you may just stop trying, and try different approaches, which could include hiring a bit of muscle. He ends up paying money, has his time wasted, and if your contractor's ultimate goal was to have enough time to fulfill some other goal, most likely mission accomplished! Come over to Shady Greens and collect your payment. But assassination as killing people off? I don't really see much effect other than some time wasted.
I also can easily see a chaotic evil assassin occurring (can you really argue it's pvp in the normal sense as wanton slaughter versus if you were PAID to kill the guy?)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sure there will be ways to interact with players negatively outside of PvP.
*I'm selling what your selling, but cheaper :P
*I just bought all these cheap goods in order to raise prices
**Bonus points: I'm also selling all those goods at a markup
I don't have much of an imagination right now, but I'm sure there are ways to negatively interact with others that don't involve violence, but rather commerce and politics (although those could lead to violence.)
EDIT: However, I think "Market Battles" may be neutral. I could be wrong. I don't think some aspects of markets are nice/Good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope there are.Ok, you guys are focusing entirely too much on the chaotic evil aspect of the question. It's my fault. Let me re-phrase...
Is there any way other than pvp to affect your alignment?
Agreed, but I believe it should be something stronger than simply "you want to rp an evil character"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am not really seeing how assassination can be done well. From my understanding, the whole point of assassinations is to silence someone. In PFO (so far), that just isn't going to happen: That guy you "assassinated" will respawn, put a bounty on you, and at worse lose some goods.
Ryan has indicated that there will be a difference between "killing" and "assassinating". What that difference is, we don't know just yet.
Well, I don't. Nihimon might.
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Goblin Squad Member
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*I'm selling what your selling, but cheaper :P
*I just bought all these cheap goods in order to raise prices
**Bonus points: I'm also selling all those goods at a markup
What you are talking about is 'playing the market' you aren't doing anything evil, or chaotic. If you are following the rules, you are actually being lawful.
Having all the surrounding settlements burnt down so you can dominate the regional market, that's chaotic-evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, you guys are focusing entirely too much on the chaotic evil aspect of the question. It's my fault. Let me re-phrase...
Is there any way other than pvp to affect your alignment?
I believe, and correct me if I am wrong, but certain spells, can change your alignment as well. Like necromancy, for example...
That might be one way to drop your alignment without pvp.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, you guys are focusing entirely too much on the chaotic evil aspect of the question. It's my fault. Let me re-phrase...
Is there any way other than pvp to affect your alignment?
I believe, and correct me if I am wrong, but certain spells, can change your alignment as well. Like necromancy, for example...
That might be one way to drop your alignment without pvp.
It's the other way around, your alignment affects the spells and items you can cast.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's the other way around, your alignment affects the spells and items you can cast.Ok, you guys are focusing entirely too much on the chaotic evil aspect of the question. It's my fault. Let me re-phrase...
Is there any way other than pvp to affect your alignment?
I believe, and correct me if I am wrong, but certain spells, can change your alignment as well. Like necromancy, for example...
That might be one way to drop your alignment without pvp.
Actually, (for non-cleric abilities/spells) I think Björn had it right...at least as far as PfO goes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, (for non-cleric abilities/spells) I think Björn had it right...at least as far as PfO goes.
It's the other way around, your alignment affects the spells and items you can cast.
I don't think they have decided if they are flipping it for PFO yet. I've seen quotes that suggest when or the other. If you flip it when do you get the hit? When you start training in Necromancy or when you actually raise some skellies?
As far as weapons/items go it is certainly the alignment that affects if you can use it, not the item that bends your alignment.
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The Joker, was always a great way for me to explain CE.
Problem is chaotic people cannot be trusted to do anything or hold their words. Even chaotic good is not trustworthy that is why they are chaotic. chaotic neutral is probable the absolute worst aglinment possible just because no one will ever know what will do. you could shower them with money or summon an interdimensional demigod of marshmellows. Of course the most evil alignment I have ever played was a LG palidan, Follow my deity and be converted or suffer my wrath. J/K
Why is people taking alignment to such an extreme degree?
Lawful characters are mindless computers that follow orders, chaotic are raving mad or pathological liars, good characters would sacrifice their life and everything they hold dear for the first paesant in need and evil characters are devoid of every ounce of humanity.Even Neutrals are taken to excess with people saying they should switch side to the loser team constantly to mantain the balance.
Constantly getting drunk at the tavern and starting a brawl for some petty selfish reason is Chaotic Evil enough. You can be a mediocre chaotic evil sometimes, you don't need to flaunt how chaotic and evil you are by blowing up orphanages for no reason on a daily basis.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For what it's worth, I agree with the posts you've made about alignment for the most part, Scarletrose.
I think for game balance, they have decided that the CE alignment will be mostly for the wretched griefers and the random player killers. There will be heavy penalties for falling to this alignment or being a member of a CE settlement, especially with low reputation. I wish there weren't, but that seems to be the direction they are going.
This is in order to make PvP less of a thing you decide upon every time you meet somebody, and more of a thing of declared wars and organized raids. I can at least see value in that, as I suspect it will attract a more moderate player base which will help keep griefers out and help the game be more of a success.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess the question is, why would you want to be chaotic evil whilst avoiding an opportunity to cause suffering on another person?
If you're gonna be CE...BE CE! hehe
I may want to be a thief, or a slaver, or..... a crimelord that doesn't dirts his hands. I mean .. I have goons for that kind of things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I may want to be a thief, or a slaver, or..... a crimelord that doesn't dirts his hands. I mean .. I have goons for that kind of things.I guess the question is, why would you want to be chaotic evil whilst avoiding an opportunity to cause suffering on another person?
If you're gonna be CE...BE CE! hehe
That's fine Scarlet, and perfectly acceptable to want to play that. But let me ask you this:
Is it not equally as sinful to send a brigand to murder than to do it yourself?
I'd say the answer is yes it's equally sinful, but I don't know if they can make a computer understand that concept.
Then again, if there's going to be contracts, maybe some type of kill contract put on another would shift you to evil as you take more and more out on good aligned folk?
Sorry EDIT: That's what I'm talking about causing suffering on others. There's gotsta be a way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I may want to be a thief, or a slaver, or..... a crimelord that doesn't dirts his hands. I mean .. I have goons for that kind of things.I guess the question is, why would you want to be chaotic evil whilst avoiding an opportunity to cause suffering on another person?
If you're gonna be CE...BE CE! hehe
That's fine Scarlet, and perfectly acceptable to want to play that. But let me ask you this:
Is it not equally as sinful to send a brigand to murder than to do it yourself?
I'd say the answer is yes it's equally sinful, but I don't know if they can make a computer understand that concept.
Then again, if there's going to be contracts, maybe some type of kill contract put on another would shift you to evil as you take more and more out on good aligned folk?
Sorry EDIT: That's what I'm talking about causing suffering on others. There's gotsta be a way.
Well I was talking in a general sense.
But being more specific on how to be chaotic evil without ganking people...What about sabotage?
Like filling a settlement well with poison to cripple production, bonuses or whatever boon a well developed settlement gives you?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ScoutmasterChip
There will be Assassination Contracts (search the blog for "Assassinat"). I also hope that such a contract will cause an alignment shift for the issuer.
Victims can also place Bounty Contracts on criminals; I expect this will not shift alignment, except that a person killing a criminal shifts their alignment toward Lawful.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Well I was talking in a general sense.
But being more specific on how to be chaotic evil without ganking people...
What about sabotage?
Like filling a settlement well with poison to cripple production, bonuses or whatever boon a well developed settlement gives you?
Better sabotage would be putting sand or emery powder in the bearings of the mill, or acid in the metal hinges of the gate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Entire Drow societies are Chaotic Evil and they don't self destruct. They have laws and are polite to each other... and plot and seize opportunities to profit at the loss of others. They cheat, lie, steal, enslave, harm and/or kill when they know it won't come back on them or ruin their house's rep.
Random butchers they are not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is there any way other than pvp to affect your alignment?
Attacking or performing crime against NPC's has been mentioned.
What about religion? Building (contract-regulated) relations with Asmodeus should be a LE action (as serving him literally means serving the LE cause), building a casino to honor Desna should be CG, working to release Rovagug is clearly insane but certainly also CE.
Serving the Dawnflower should be a feasible way to redeem yourself from CE (although conditions for repdemption may include no loss of reputation or no evil actions during x period).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Better sabotage would be putting sand or emery powder in the bearings of the mill, or acid in the metal hinges of the gate.
Well I was talking in a general sense.
But being more specific on how to be chaotic evil without ganking people...
What about sabotage?
Like filling a settlement well with poison to cripple production, bonuses or whatever boon a well developed settlement gives you?
I'd love to see the ability to sabotage enemy(*) settlements, giving them temporary maluses or even lowering hex values. A bit of cold war action with spies vs. spy hunters.
(*) "Enemy settlement" has to be clearly defined. I suggest tying it to contracts that only settlement leaders (with appropriate abilities) can offer, or to declared 'cold war' so that the victims know who could have done it. Sabotage even in declared war might be a crime.