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I was one of the players there and I think it is only fair to at least present my perspective.
1) I did not view it as slavery as much as I did indentured servitude. It seemed that there was a definite end to the service after a very short time for a sphinx.
2) I did not get that it was super important to you to let the sphinx go. In character I had very little reason to, not knowing it was involved with my faction mission and not viewing it as slavery to begin with.
Had my character known that it was a important to yours that alone would have shifted me to trying to let the sphinx go.
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Your right I did not understand the point of the post, and I honestly wish the mission had been more clear.
Ruth draws the line between slave and indentured servant at their being a choice at some point. To my understanding a creature like a sphinx would not find herself in that situation unless she had lost some sort of challenge. Seeing as she would have had something to gain, or the potential for something to gain she accepted the risk and lost her freedom, for a time.
Ruth would have viewed it as slavery if the sphinx never had a choice, but the way the service passed to us and the time line on it indicated to Ruth that it was more of an indentured service situation.
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Soooo here is what the scenario has to say about the sphinx
Creatures: This is Hetepheres, Whisperer of Enigma,
a young sphinx. Verdizaam Charad encountered her in
the desert south of Manaket and defeated her in a match
of riddles. She reminded him of his lost love Larasesh,
and his victory granted him power over her for 99
years. That was only 6 months ago, and the loss and
the servitude chafe at proud Hetepheres. Considering
her to be better protection than any safe or stronghold,
the great ghul entrusted unto her many of his secrets.
Even though Verdizaam may be dead, the sphinx still
considers herself bound to keep his secrets until the
99 years are ended. That is, unless someone else can
defeat her in battle of wits. A DC 22 Perception check
(Tier 8-9: DC 26) notices a fine silver chain running
from a shackle around one of her rear paws to a bolt
affixed to the floor—a mark of her enslavement to
Verdizaam, though her honor keeps her from breaking
the puny chain and freeing herself.
and this is how the success information reads
Mission Notes: If the PCs correctly solve the riddle,
Hetepheres considers herself beholden to the PCs, who
beat her in a battle of wits and defeated her previous captor.
Andoran faction PCs may wish to use their position to set
the sphinx free, which they may do by simply unclasping
the chain from her leg and telling her that her obligation
to them is void.
so here are my questions
did you solve the riddle? if yes then you beat her in a battle of wits and her "servitude" switches to you and you can decide to release her or not.
did you notice the chain and how flimsy it was?
A lot of this also may have been how your GM represented the information to you and for that I don't have an explanation. I'm merely giving you what the scenario said.
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Soooo here is what the scenario has to say about the sphinx
** spoiler omitted **
and this is how the success information reads
** spoiler omitted **
so here are my questions
did you solve the riddle? if yes then you beat her in a battle of wits and her "servitude" switches to you and you can decide to release her or not.
did you notice the chain and how flimsy it was?
A lot of this also may have been how your GM represented the information to you and for that I don't have an explanation. I'm merely giving you what the scenario said.
Pathfinder Iakhovas reporting for duty. I heard there was something for me to do here? Oh, you need me to check my chronicle from that last mission in Rahadoum the other day. Let's see--it says here that we did solve the riddle and unclasp the chain, but then no one declared the servitude null and void (in fact, several of us are considering using the Herald vanity to have her announce us as a herald). We very clearly took us back with her to Manaket instead.
Andoran Eagle Knight and talented alchemist Fizzle-Bang is a solid ally to the Pathfinder Society, and he is understandably upset, as this is his first failure on a faction mission in all 27 of his chronicles, but sometimes, you just don't get them all.
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this is his first failure on a faction mission in all 27 of his chronicles
And here's the root of the problem. IME players stomach character death better than missing a faction mission. I think this makes some GMs feel as though they need to be generous with the handing out of prestige.
Personally I've played both ends of the spectrum. I played a Bard/Oracle of Lore specifically built to do everyone's faction missions. I also now have a goblin with 8 XP who has only succeeded ONCE at his faction mission and that was only because there was another member of his faction at the table (and they never bothered to hand the mission to poor little Garble in the first place).
I'm in favor of eventually doing away with factions. These side missions distract far too much from the real mission at hand. Instead, I'd rather have a unannounced secondary success conditions in each scenario.
Example:
Main Mission - Bring back the macguffin. Again.
Secondary Success Conditions - If the PCs set X free, keep Y alive, recover Z artifact, improve our relations with A, or ensure the death of B, then award the PCs an additional prestige point.
That keeps everyone at the table working together. It also keeps everyone on the look-out for doing Pathfindery things. These things could be hinted at in the VC briefing, but they wouldn't necessarily need to be.
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ahh .. things are much clearer with the revelation that this is the first time this character has not received is prestige ..
faction missions are not going to lead you by the nose as to what you need to do... they are not going to state "take 53 steps to the north and then turn right ... stop .... wave your hands... take 6 kitty corner steps to the left and then dig... you got your misson"
sometimes you have to do a bit of conjecturing based on what the overall mission goal is and sometimes you just have to take a stab in the dark as to what you are supposed to do to complete the mission.
if the servitude was not ended and she was taken back with pcs then the perimeters of the Andoran faction mission were not met and the PC should not get the point as he failed to convince others to let her go.
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I don't know. Sounds like a pretty flimsy excuse not to award the faction mission point if the Andoran faction PC wanted to set the Sphinx free.
In my perspective, when faction missions are involved, if characters not of that faction attempt to do something to prevent a PC from completing their mission (whether they are aware of it or not) and it is not something like setting off a trap that destroys an object someone needs then that could be considered PvP.
In this case, if I had been the GM at the table and the PC had said they want to set the Sphinx free, then that would be enough for me to award them the point.
These are my folks, but I'm not going to suggest the outcome be changed. I have confidence in all the parties involved.
For the record, the original poster is a pleasure to game with. He is not the type to try and weasel every benefit. And I resent those who are implying just because the character has not failed a mission until now that the player is somehow not making a valid point.
About the worst I can say for him is sometimes he doesn't let us know if he can't make it to the game. But a great player to have at your table.
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Don,
As in other posts, my responses are based on the information I have at hand. I don't know what the player is and I'm sooooo sorry if I have offended your delicate sensibilities in making any implications based on the information I had.
Basically the success perimeters state that the sphinx is let go and freed... if characters are not letting her go free despite the request of the Andoran at the table .. then the faction mission was not completed. I'm not sure how it could be judged differently.
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if characters are not letting her go free despite the request of the Andoran at the table .. then the faction mission was not completed
I agree in this assessment, however, it could be argued that the other players are violating a PFS tenet; that being you are not to interfere with other agent's activities. Players are not permitted to directly object to, or sabotage another player's faction missions.
EDIT--if the "other" players were Andoran, that might change things a little. Even fellow faction members are not permitted to interfere with another agent's activities. I might rule the "other" failed their mission, but the one that wanted to release her, could do so off-camera and earn his fame/PP. Of course, this is all speculation as I was not the GM of the table, so there may be details of which I am unaware. YMMV
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if characters are not letting her go free despite the request of the Andoran at the table .. then the faction mission was not completedI agree in this assessment, however, it could be argued that the other players are violating a PFS tenet; that being you are not to interfere with other agent's activities. Players are not permitted to directly object to, or sabotage another player's faction missions.
I'm sure there are some exceptions to that tenet. For instance, with the (very badly written) Cheliax mission in Infernal Vault, it would be ludicrous to force the other PCs to hand over Absalom's defenses to Cheliax, thus making the entire adventure moot and failing the main Pathfinder mission (fortunately when I ran Infernal Vault the Cheliax character had some good tricks up his sleeve to get the mission done with or without the party's consent).
In any case, I was at this particular table as Iakhovas, and the main thing you have to realize is that due to the vague wording of the mission statement and the fact that they probably forgot that Season 2 scenarios have two missions and thought they were all done, none of the three characters with the Andoran mission actually realized that freeing the sphinx was their faction mission, including the Andoran character who was arguing to free her. They were all RPing their characters to a hilt and are all great roleplayers.
The Andoran character is against any kind of slavery or subservience and was leery of the sphinx's indentured service for that reason, suggesting that the group free her. One of the SC characters (same mission) was an ardent follower of Abadar who pointed out that it would insult the sphinx's contest and the contract entailed therein to terminate her term of service--after all, the other alternative had the party failed the riddle was for her to devour the bard, and the party had agreed to those terms in accepting the riddle challenge. The other SC character (who had actually given the riddle guess and risked the penalty of being wrong) agreed, pointing out that 99 years is not as long as it seems to a sphinx. The other three Pathfinders (including my Fighter) were generally more convinced by the latter two arguments, and so everyone went back to Manaket with the sphinx, the Andoran and SC characters expecting full prestige. It wasn't like anyone was intentionally denying the mission. As far as my Grand Lodge character who was in that scenario is concerned, if you tell him that something is your faction mission and you aren't Sczarni or Cheliax, he will do his best to assist you unless he finds the mission morally repugnant. After all, you have his back in life-or-death situations, so he has yours when you need something done. But that didn't happen because it wasn't clear to the three of them that it was their mission.
That being said, I think the OP's main complaint was about the wording of the mission, which led them to not realize that freeing the sphinx is required--he was not complaining about how it was run by the GM, who ran it extremely well. Not saying I agree with him, just reminding you to pay close attention to the post he made and remember that he's upset about the mission wording and not the judge ruling.
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Caderyn, it is obvious that Mike does not want players directly interfering with a faction mission. With the "freebee" clause to account for alignment infractions, it is also clear that he does not want completing a faction mission to be a detriment to the concerned player or by extension, the rest of the party. A little common-sense adjudication should be applied here. For non-mission issues, I would agree with your assessment (hell, I play paladins myself), but with regards to missions, if you directly block another player from completing a mission, you are violating a PFS rule. Is it "realistic"? No. Does it break some level of immersiveness? Yep. But, we have to make some concessions for organized play.
Granted, we all hope that faction missions are written in such a way as to not create alignment issues or party strife since the core tenet of PFS is cooperation. Personally, I think it should be listed first, but cooperate, explore, report doesn't have the same ring :-)
Note that your examples are not such that the missions are being blocked. They represent cooperation amongst the group to work it in such a way so everyone is at least okay with the solution. That is different than outright blocking an Andoran from freeing a "slave."
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
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if characters are not letting her go free despite the request of the Andoran at the table .. then the faction mission was not completedI agree in this assessment, however, it could be argued that the other players are violating a PFS tenet; that being you are not to interfere with other agent's activities. Players are not permitted to directly object to, or sabotage another player's faction missions.I'm sure there are some exceptions to that tenet. For instance, with the (very badly written) Cheliax mission in Infernal Vault, it would be ludicrous to force the other PCs to hand over Absalom's defenses to Cheliax, thus making the entire adventure moot and failing the main Pathfinder mission (fortunately when I ran Infernal Vault the Cheliax character had some good tricks up his sleeve to get the mission done with or without the party's consent).
That was a very badly written mission ... and how I generally ran that one was as long as the Chelaxian picked up the papers I felt they satisfied the perimeters of their misson
For the specifics of this thread... if none of the Andorans at the table even attempted it... then no they don't deserve the prestige point ... no matter how it's argued.. they forgot, couldn't figure it out .. etc..
if there was a chance that they didn't understand the mission they could have asked the GM for clarification, as for forgetting that they needed to do two missions .. nothing can really be said other than sorry, you didn't do the mission.
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Out of curiosity, what did the Andorans ultimately do with their new slave? After all, winning the riddle contest confers ownership. Did they keep her? Sell her?
If they are playing all three in a row, they probably didn't get a chance to return her to Absalom.
They didn't need to take her to absalom, they just needed to let her go free, which from the sounds of things did not happen.
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Out of curiosity, what did the Andorans ultimately do with their new slave? After all, winning the riddle contest confers ownership. Did they keep her? Sell her?
If they are playing all three in a row, they probably didn't get a chance to return her to Absalom.
Don't worry, she wouldn't survive part 3.
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They didn't need to take her to absalom, they just needed to let her go free, which from the sounds of things did not happen.Yeah, I know. I'm just wondering what they did with the sphinx if they didn't let it go free. The alternatives to releasing it are all rather odd and would likely be very memorable.
As the bard player mentioned three posts above, she makes quite the unique herald or seneschal (using the vanity rules from the field guide). I've had a different player do similarly with the homunculi in SLS2 and yet another with the favorite goblin from Frostfur Captives. It seems the go-to solution for our region when an interesting creature "joins your party" in PFS.
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Don't worry, she wouldn't survive part 3.
That reminds me...
So this scenario has the *insert Kyle's avatar monster* as the BBEG which can create spawn from anyone it kills, which happens at the next moonrise. The players are in Rahadoum during this, which is very limited in the amount of divine healing it can supply.
So if someone is killed by that monster, do you think their location complicates anything with respect to having them get a Raise Dead while in Rahadoum and considering the amount of time they would have before they would turn?
It's been awhile since I have run this one, but I dont think it says anything about it being more difficult or them being on a time constraint, so I am inclined to think that no, it doesnt make a difference. Whatcha think?
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Don't worry, she wouldn't survive part 3.That reminds me...
So this scenario has the *insert Kyle's avatar monster* as the BBEG which can create spawn from anyone it kills, which happens at the next moonrise. The players are in Rahadoum during this, which is very limited in the amount of divine healing it can supply.
So if someone is killed by that monster, do you think their location complicates anything with respect to having them get a Raise Dead while in Rahadoum and considering the amount of time they would have before they would turn?
It's been awhile since I have run this one, but I dont think it says anything about it being more difficult or them being on a time constraint, so I am inclined to think that no, it doesnt make a difference. Whatcha think?
Yes. They can't pay gold to get a raise dead in Rahadoum, but they can, however, use 21 PP to find another agent of the society (or some other connection). 16 PP for the raise plus 5 PP because you're in the middle of a godless country which is probably worse than not being near a settlement of 5,000 people. :-) And then they gotta pay PP for the restorations too. Not a fun place to die.
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this scenario has the *insert Kyle's avatar monster* as the BBEG which can create spawn from anyone it killsWonder why I chose this as my avatar..
I had no idea what that thing was til the first time I ran this, then it was 'Oh, well that makes sense, I guess.' :P
I think my players are going to be in for a surprise when we get to this scenario. I advised them to play down in Part 1, not knowing they had any way of dealing effectively with one encounter in particular. They did have something to deal with it, and as such, ran through the entire scenario in about 3 hours. I have a feeling if I suggest them to play down in this one, they wont listen to me, which might end up costing them dearly. :P
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this scenario has the *insert Kyle's avatar monster* as the BBEG which can create spawn from anyone it killsWonder why I chose this as my avatar..I had no idea what that thing was til the first time I ran this, then it was 'Oh, well that makes sense, I guess.' :P
I think my players are going to be in for a surprise when we get to this scenario. I advised them to play down in Part 1, not knowing they had any way of dealing effectively with one encounter in particular. They did have something to deal with it, and as such, ran through the entire scenario in about 3 hours. I have a feeling if I suggest them to play down in this one, they wont listen to me, which might end up costing them dearly. :P
Wait for part 3. Play up and every creature has over 100 hp.
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Ran this scenario on Sunday at the same venue, and did have a character death in the BBEG fight. I opted to allow the PC to pay for the Raise Dead, as the party had a cleric to remove the Create Spawn effect. I figured that as the "Next Moonrise" timer was dealt with, the party was able to comb the black market to find the casting services.
Thoughts?
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Ran this scenario on Sunday at the same venue, and did have a character death in the BBEG fight. I opted to allow the PC to pay for the Raise Dead, as the party had a cleric to remove the Create Spawn effect. I figured that as the "Next Moonrise" timer was dealt with, the party was able to comb the black market to find the casting services.
Thoughts?
It seems the right call--after all, even though they all happen to be planning on playing part 3 this Sunday, since there isn't a Dogged Adventurer boon like in Rats of Round Mountain, there's nothing to say they didn't go back to Absalom after blessing the body.
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Wait for part 3. Play up and every creature has over 100 hp.They tend to have more than that in common. The first time I did that one, I had an alchemist at the table. :P
Oh yes. My point was that each real encounter is a tough and long fight. I haven't had much luck running that one at the higher subtier in under 5 hours (and I've only run this series 5 times)
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Regarding the "finding a cleric on the black market," I wouldn't give this to the PCs. Rahadoum is a scary place. If you go asking around for a cleric, you're likely to end up in jail or more likely dead. It should be stressed throughout each and every one of these scenarios what this place is like. There is far more sickness and disease than anywhere else in the world. Even the thought of needing a god to help you is heresy.
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Regarding the "finding a cleric on the black market," I wouldn't give this to the PCs. Rahadoum is a scary place. If you go asking around for a cleric, you're likely to end up in jail or more likely dead. It should be stressed throughout each and every one of these scenarios what this place is like. There is far more sickness and disease than anywhere else in the world. Even the thought of needing a god to help you is heresy.
On the other hand, once the scenario is fully over, if a PC cleric has blessed the body, the PCs can be assumed to find divine spellcasting services in Absalom, since it doesn't have a Dogged Adventurer style boon like a certain fiendish author of Rats of Round Mountain. Of course, if you need divine spellcasting services or magic items in the middle, you're out of luck unless the level is very low on the black market (as mentioned in the sidebar within the adventures).
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On the other hand, once the scenario is fully over, if a PC cleric has blessed the body, the PCs can be assumed to find divine spellcasting services in Absalom, since it doesn't have a Dogged Adventurer style boon like a certain fiendish author of Rats of Round Mountain. Of course, if you need divine spellcasting services or magic items in the middle, you're out of luck unless the level is very low on the black market (as mentioned in the sidebar within the adventures).
Yep. They need a way to preserve the body and keep it from rising up. They also don't have to go back to Absalom, they just have to get the heck out of Rahadoum.
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I rocked the g*~ d~!n socks off that damn undead boss guy.Hey! Leave my avatar alone you big meany!
Kyle, at this point you are scarier and more well-known than Verdizaam Charaad. When people saw the picture and thought it was "a lich or something", they were slightly scared. When I told them, "You guys know this is Kyle Baird's avatar, right? Because he loves this scenario so much." you could see the fear level rising much higher.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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There are some scenarios where deciphering the faction mission is the hard part -- actually accomplishing the assignment once you understand what your faction head wants you to do is trivial. (Most recent example is probably "Nesting Swallow", but this was also popular in late Season One / early Season 2.)
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There are some scenarios where deciphering the faction mission is the hard part -- actually accomplishing the assignment once you understand what your faction head wants you to do is trivial. (Most recent example is probably "Nesting Swallow", but this was also popular in late Season One / early Season 2.)
I've actually been teaching GMs who plan on running Nesting Swallow to put in some clues for the most mysteriously-written of those missions. When I ran it, for instance, every time they used defense points, I narrated how the villagers put themselves on the line to help the PCs (and the dire consequences to the villagers). The Silver Crusade picked up fast.
