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Well, it's certainly true that every creature that *has game stats* in Pathfinder is able to be defeated, but that's something of a tautology. The main reason for a creature to have stats is so you know how it can be fought and defeated. On the other hand, the fine folks at Paizo have deliberately *avoided* assigning stats to certain beings, like the Great Old Ones.
So while it's true that the PCs can kill Karzoug and even smash the Leng Device, if Mhar were to actually wake up, there's precious little they could do to put him back down. What's worse, Mhar isn't even the only Great Old One on Golarion... and the other has already begun to wake up...
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Not having stats doesn't mean one can't be defeated. It just means they have to be taken on indirectly.
Other forces can be brought to bear to even the odds, with the outcome still hinging on the actions of the PCs. Often this means conflicts become less straightforward and more...Planescapey.
Someone might want to run a campaign where the PCs kill the biggest bad cosmic horror with stats that they can manage, with a higher scale battle between gods and other powers vs. higher scale cosmic horrors depending on that outcome. Plenty of beings without stats involved, but the PCs still decided the outcome.
I just don't buy that Golarion is an essentially hopeless setting that hurt itself today to see if it could feel. Like James Jacobs said, those elements are there to give the heroes something to do. People in the setting are still in the fight, and it hasn't been decided yet. After all, isn't the kind of the point of the Age of Lost Omens?
Nothing is written in stone.
Looking at this from the mortal perspective in a heroic fantasy context, I'm reminded of the words of two great men.
Just remember what old Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big old storm right in the eye and says "Give me your best shot. I can take it." - Jack Burton
Don't start no $%^& won't be no $%^&! - Lil Jon
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Mythic rules are part of Pathfinder, and most likely part of Golarion canon. As for that claim about Pathfinder not being heroic fantasy. You still go and beat up Karzoug after dealing with those horribly hillbilly ogres. Actually, pretty much ever AP so far seems...Okay, let me amend: Mythic Pathfinder is heroic dark fantasy. Standard Pathfinder is pulp dark fantasy. Do you go beat up Karzoug? Or do you get eaten by yetis in a gruesome TPK? Or does the lovely Nuallia fillet you for meddling with her revenge? Or do you get spit roasted by stone giants with a sage rub and served with beef ribs? I certainly didn't get that there's any guarantee of success in Pathfinder. As I read it groups TPK a lot--heck if my experience with Pathfinder Society is any indication you TPK about 3 out of 5...and when you don't you come home beaten and broken with a horrible beast curse slowly devolving you into a monster...
And if you do succeed, remember you've dedicated the best years of your adventuring life to defeating a minor evil. You haven't wiped out the drow or slain Asmodeus or even stopped the all the Runelords. Your victories never save Golarion--everything you can do is fight your whole career to save it for now. Pretty bleak.
And you could never die a horrid death and let the world suffer in editions 1-4 of D&D, huh? Sounds different from the games I played.
In the Dark Sun setting, you basically already lost. The world is a wasteland and the rulers of the world are all evil spellcasters of great power.
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I'd rather go for a middle ground than an absolute.
... which was actually my point.
The game is there to be played (and interpreted) the way you like it.
I like it a little brighter than dark, and thus it's interesting, to me, that there are so many things that would, like, 'totally spell doom for Golarion', yet, they keep being stopped. That's the thing to me: sure, there are more out there, but you've done your part, and that's good enough. The hope part comes from simply resting assured that, to paraphrase, no matter how dark the world gets, there will be light*!
Also, reference defeating things without stats? Read the sample adventure in the mythic play rules, and there's a perfect example of how to do that.
But if you don't like it that way: don't play that way. Simple as that.
*
I guess here's my thing. Second edition D&D came up with these really great atmospheric settings like Dark Sun and Ravenloft that were fun because of how they were. They were fun because of all the messed up Sorcerer Kings and Domain Lords. But no sooner had they painted this great picture of this really cool place where getting something to drink and not being a slave were great accomplishments, they'd try to spell out in no uncertain terms how as PCs you were expected to go busting in as four color heroes to "fix" everything. By the time you're done there are to be no more Sorcerer Kings, there should be water and greenry everywhere and everyone should enjoy peace and love and freedom and plenty.
I always thought: yeah but wouldn't it just be more fun to play a guy in this great setting who has to actually deal with this stuff instead of waving a sword around and fixing it? If the PCs priorities could be the same as other guys just trying to get by in this fairly rough and tumble world? I always felt the PCs fixing everything just kind of cheapens the settings a bit.
That's my thing. It feels like Pathfinder has a certain feel to it as a setting and I like that. Heroic fantasy has a habbit of hunting down and killing all the most interesting parts of a setting until it's unrecognizable anymore--they just run over it. I guess I prefer my games played in the setting, enjoying the setting for what it is, rather than taking a bat to it.
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Eh, if my experience in 4E is any indication, at least one Player Character will die per boss fight, intentionally or not. Somehow, I don't think that's the intent of the game.
And no: a runelord, even a single one, isn't anything resembling a 'minor' evil.
Unfortunately it isn't (EDIT: the intent of the game, as above). The assumption is that you do win every fight, and when you inevitably TPK (which you do in Pathfinder a crazy lot compared to 4e, which plays a lot more like Mythic) it's because you failed--and you then get treated to a longwinded talk from the DM how it isn't his fault, and if you weren't so stupid as to *fill in some corner case thing that applies only to this fight, but which you could not have known without reading the module* then the fight would have been a cakewalk. Yarg. I just want to play my character--y'now? If he dies, then that's his story. It bugs that modules force you into dumb confrontations and then murder you for it--and then blame you.
That said, when I talk about a runelord being a minor evil, what I'm saying is this: his endgame is to try and raise up his corner of Thassilon again, make some cool monuments, enslave some people. Cthuhlu wants to eat the universe like a doughnut. The runelord deal only affects the cinderlands, maybe Korvosa and Magnimar. While he's not a nice guy, the effects of the return of Thassilon on the world as a whole might actually net a bunch of plusses? What if Korzaug closed the Worldwound? What if he magic punched Tar Baphon in the face? What if he turned Cthuhlu into a snazzy pair of cufflinks. So laboring your whole adventuring career to kill him does remove something evil from the world--but is it a major Rovagug style evil thing? Nope. It's more of a kill Cheliax before it's born thing. Not that it isn't a hard boss fight...cause it totally is.
By your reasoning Carrot-top exists in the Golarion universe. That's depressing.
Jackpot, I didn't know this was the "How to piss off your players" thread.
Meh.
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Paraphrase: I like the settings being grimdark, and I like to enjoy them that way.
That's... kind of what I meant, though. PF is built with that being a valid presumption about the setting.
But so is the other way: that's what I'm trying to say; Golarion (and it's attendant worlds/omniverse) can be interpreted as depressing... or can be 'fixed' by the players, at your option.
Unfortunately it isn't (EDIT: the intent of the game, as above). The assumption is that you do win every fight, and when you inevitably TPK (which you do in Pathfinder a crazy lot compared to 4e, which plays a lot more like Mythic) it's because you failed--and you then get treated to a longwinded talk from the DM how it isn't his fault, and if you weren't so stupid as to *fill in some corner case thing that applies only to this fight, but which you could not have known without reading the module* then the fight would have been a cakewalk. Yarg. I just want to play my character--y'now? If he dies, then that's his story. It bugs that modules force you into dumb confrontations and then murder you for it--and then blame you.Eh, if my experience in 4E is any indication, at least one Player Character will die per boss fight, intentionally or not. Somehow, I don't think that's the intent of the game.
And no: a runelord, even a single one, isn't anything resembling a 'minor' evil.
I... what? Your GM sounds... unpleasant.
My 4E player's aren't (well, weren't - I moved half a state away, so...) bad at it (they tended to use what seemed to me to be good tactics, including flaking, stealth, care, and what should be proper amounts of healing and items), but I never actually played a boss fight that a PC didn't get killed or nearly killed. It's... kind of ridiculous. I really don't know what I'm doing, 'wrong'.
That said, when I talk about a runelord being a minor evil, what I'm saying is this: his endgame is to try and raise up his corner of Thassilon again, make some cool monuments, enslave some people. Cthuhlu wants to eat the universe like a doughnut. The runelord deal only affects the cinderlands, maybe Korvosa and Magnimar. While he's not a nice guy, the effects of the return of Thassilon on the world as a whole might actually net a bunch of plusses? What if Korzaug closed the Worldwound? What if he magic punched Tar Baphon in the face? What if he turned Cthuhlu into a snazzy pair of cufflinks. So laboring your whole adventuring career to kill him does remove something evil from the world--but is it a major Rovagug style evil thing? Nope. It's more of a kill Cheliax before it's born thing. Not that it isn't a hard boss fight...cause it totally is.
Heh. See, that's the thing. You don't know what the ultimate changes will be - while good things may come, they're incidental to the ultimate goal of EVIL GUY GAINING EVIL POWER. You only know that this guy's awful and is planning on doing terrible, evil, things with huge bad stuff. Sure, one might close the worldwound... or they might find a way to harness it and make the Abyss their own and cover the world with demons at their will. Maybe one would crush Cthuhlu... but maybe he'll instead become a devout worshiper of the freak-show, and arrange everything for his coming. The only thing you know: a really big evil with the potential to change the world is soon coming back. And that's entirely worth stopping for its own reasons.
I... what? Your GM sounds... unpleasant.Unfortunately it isn't (EDIT: the intent of the game, as above). The assumption is that you do win every fight, and when you inevitably TPK (which you do in Pathfinder a crazy lot compared to 4e, which plays a lot more like Mythic) it's because you failed--and you then get treated to a longwinded talk from the DM how it isn't his fault, and if you weren't so stupid as to *fill in some corner case thing that applies only to this fight, but which you could not have known without reading the module* then the fight would have been a cakewalk. Yarg. I just want to play my character--y'now? If he dies, then that's his story. It bugs that modules force you into dumb confrontations and then murder you for it--and then blame you.Eh, if my experience in 4E is any indication, at least one Player Character will die per boss fight, intentionally or not. Somehow, I don't think that's the intent of the game.
And no: a runelord, even a single one, isn't anything resembling a 'minor' evil.
I have to agree. Maybe my experience is too limited, but I've never read a single PF module that does that. And I've sure as never read one that lectures players whose characters die about it. This sounds more like a PKing GM lording it over his players when he abuses corner cases to get their PCs killed.
Yeah. I always feel like garbage when I kill the wizard again.
Especially when they're already poor from the last time*...
*
That's... kind of what I meant, though. PF is built with that being a valid presumption about the setting.
But so is the other way: that's what I'm trying to say; Golarion (and it's attendant worlds/omniverse) can be interpreted as depressing... or can be 'fixed' by the players, at your option.
I don't think what we're saying is that different. I'm totally cool that other folks like to play their Pathfinder another way. About the depressing/'fixed" axis I'm not so sure it's gotta' be one or the other. I mean I really like playing it just how it is, and sort of enjoy the edgier darker tones of the game as flavorful and cool. I guess I just don't get freaked out or depressed by them as much as everyone else seems to. I like that Pathfinder has some grit.
I think, then, we kind of agree, though we prefer different things. :)
But it's not like world-ending threats based on timing and astral alignment exist in real life... or do they?!?!
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It's about matching power level to what your story needs. Cthulhu should be something ultimate. In pulp settings ultimate power is a bit nebulous, in pathfinder it's level 20 plus mythic.Why does Cthulhu need to be "ultimate" in the first place? He's not even remotely the strongest being in the actual Cthulhu Mythos (for that matter, Kthulhu mentioned in another thread that he isn't presented as necessarily being any stronger than the rest of his race). Even if he were, why would would it follow that he remain so relative to a different setting wherein the protagonists are far, far stronger than in the original source?
I'd make Cthulhu a Star Spawn with mythic tiers, and levels as a cleric of Nyarlathotep. Then again, I'd probably bump up most Star Spawn by giving them either mythic tiers and/or class levels.
I'll fully agree that the Great Old Ones themselves shouldn't really be any more intimidating than demon lords / archdevils / etc. Along with the variation in power levels that that implies...for example Hastur should be considered more powerful than Bokrug, in my less-than-humble opinion.
And even for the "hopeful" set, I don't see too much problem even if the Outer Gods were ruled to be nebulously more powerful than Golarion's big 20. After all, the Outer Gods are very few in number, and other than Nyarlathotep they really don't give a damn about us one way or the other:
Azathoth might be the ultimate power in the multiverse, but seeing as how he's content to just sit around listening to music, he doesn't really pose much of a threat to anyone that isn't actively seeking him out. Shub-Niggurath might have spawned a few Dark Young on Golarion, but she also seems reasonably content to let Lamashtu fill what is nominally her role on Golarion. And Yog-Sothoth, other than siring a few Dunwich Horors here and there also seems content to leave Golarion alone for the most part.
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It's about matching power level to what your story needs. Cthulhu should be something ultimate. In pulp settings ultimate power is a bit nebulous, in pathfinder it's level 20 plus mythic.Why does Cthulhu need to be "ultimate" in the first place? He's not even remotely the strongest being in the actual Cthulhu Mythos (for that matter, Kthulhu mentioned in another thread that he isn't presented as necessarily being any stronger than the rest of his race). Even if he were, why would would it follow that he remain so relative to a different setting wherein the protagonists are far, far stronger than in the original source?I'd make Cthulhu a Star Spawn with mythic tiers, and levels as a cleric of Nyarlathotep. Then again, I'd probably bump up most Star Spawn by giving them either mythic tiers and/or class levels.
I'll fully agree that the Great Old Ones themselves shouldn't really be any more intimidating than demon lords / archdevils / etc. Along with the variation in power levels that that implies...for example Hastur should be considered more powerful than Bokrug, in my less-than-humble opinion.
And even for the "hopeful" set, I don't see too much problem even if the Outer Gods were ruled to be nebulously more powerful than Golarion's big 20. After all, the Outer Gods are very few in number, and other than Nyarlathotep they really don't give a damn about us one way or the other:
Azathoth might be the ultimate power in the multiverse, but seeing as how he's content to just sit around listening to music, he doesn't really pose much of a threat to anyone that isn't actively seeking him out. Shub-Niggurath might have spawned a few Dark Young on Golarion, but she also seems reasonably content to let Lamashtu fill what is nominally her role on Golarion. And Yog-Sothoth, other than siring a few Dunwich Horors here and there also seems content to leave Golarion alone for the most part.
This leads into my previous thought that maybe there is too much Cthulhu stuff running around.
But it's not like world-ending threats based on timing and astral alignment exist in real life...or do they?!?!
And that's a good point. So there's global warming and giant killer asteroids, and the North Korean Death Satellite in our world, right? But you can still tell fun action-packed awesome stories in our world. When's the last time you threw your popcorn at the screen because Bruce Willis didn't do a thing to solve the underlying tensions in the Middle East. There's stuff the heroes can do, and stuff the heroes can't--but it doesn't make their stories any less awesome.
I think it's not that there's "too much Cthuhlu stuff" but maybe that we need to see more other stuff out there--because the Cthuhlu stuff seems disproportionate to all the other stuff from other settings we've seen so far. I think it's a perceptual thing. There's been quite a few callouts and a couple of full articles on mythos stuff--so it seems like it's all mythos out there--when really there's a lot of everything out there (or at least it could be everything, or some subset thereof) and it's about throwing the spotlight on enough of it to get a sense for how...much...stuff there is. Cause there's a lot.
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And then Galactus ate Cthuhlu. The End.
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I think it's not that there's "too much Cthuhlu stuff" but maybe that we need to see more other stuff out there--because the Cthuhlu stuff seems disproportionate to all the other stuff from other settings we've seen so far. I think it's a perceptual thing. There's been quite a few callouts and a couple of full articles on mythos stuff--so it seems like it's all mythos out there--when really there's a lot of everything out there (or at least it could be everything, or some subset thereof) and it's about throwing the spotlight on enough of it to get a sense for how...much...stuff there is. Cause there's a lot.
Well, one of the benefits of Cthulhu being in the public domain. Whereas, for example, Galactus is not.
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Sure but that doesn't keep him out of anyone's home game. Stuff can be in the assumed setting, or not, quite independant of what's legally able to be included in the printed products. Or to put it another way, copyright law doesn't exist in setting.
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Personally I don't get the appeal of playing in a game when you know you are going to fail ultimately no matter what you do.
As a long-time player of Call of Cthulhu, I can attest to the appeal of playing in a setting where mortal life is insignificant and you have no chance of ever "winning" against the cosmic forces you go up against. As counter-intuitive as it sounds, sometimes hopeless causes are the most rewarding to fight for. None of my characters ever survived a complete campaign arc, but the constant threat of death and the overwhelming, seemingly insurmountable odds made the little victories all the sweeter.
Yes, one day Cthulhu will awaken and bring an end to everything we know and love; yes, literally anyone you meet could be an avatar of Nyarlathotep out to ruin your life and drive you mad; yes, tomorrow Azathoth could snuff out all life on Earth without even a thought if someone recites the wrong incantation. But today, you saved a little girl from an unspeakable death at the hands of deranged cultists. Today you put a stop to the supernatural killer stalking the streets of an otherwise peaceful small town. And perhaps tomorrow you, mortal and insignificant as you may be, will find the strength to buy the human race a few more decades of life and sanity. For the Old Ones, a delay on the scale of a human lifetime passes in less than the blink of an eye, and makes no difference whatsoever to their immortal life-cycle. To a human being, however, it makes all the difference in the world.
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Meh... I run the Pathfinder Society as puppets for the MiGo similar to the Delta Green concept of MJ12 and the Greys. So that is why the society are running around collecting data and artifacts...
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Meh... I run the Pathfinder Society as puppets for the MiGo similar to the Delta Green concept of MJ12 and the Greys. So that is why the society are running around collecting data and artifacts...
Ooh, neat idea. The Decemvirate also end up having good reason to wear those all-concealing masks, to hide the surgery scars, from where their brains were removed and replaced. :)
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Meh... I run the Pathfinder Society as puppets for the MiGo similar to the Delta Green concept of MJ12 and the Greys. So that is why the society are running around collecting data and artifacts...Ooh, neat idea. The Decemvirate also end up having good reason to wear those all-concealing masks, to hide the surgery scars, from where their brains were removed and replaced. :)
The Delta Green MiGo use the Greys as synthetic puppets (less alien looking). A single MiGo can control several Greys at once, that's why the humans think they have a hive mind/telepathy.
I personally dislike the Pathfinder Society as written but its too good to throw away so as a primary CoC/Delta Green GM the MiGo was an obvious choice as the true power behind the Decemvirate. My players hate it when their PCs have memory gaps...
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Hmm... it's an interesting idea, but I'm not a big fan of the Mi-Go, myself. What if the Decemverate were all playing host to Yithian intelligences from a distant time and space? Maybe the secret that the Decemverate are hiding under their masks is that they're actually different people (or different bodies, at least) each time they assemble, with members of the Great Race possessing whatever pathfinder happens to be convenient and erasing their memory afterword. The Yithians seem to be mostly interested in "historical" information about different peoples and times, which fits pretty well with the Pathfinders' MO of uncovering secrets, past and present.
It does in published setting.
Nope.
The planet Vulcan's out there somewhere, as is Narnia and Middle Earth. In some cases, time AND space separates these lands from Golarion, but in some cases only space separates them.
So apparently there's lots of stuff that legally belongs to other folks that exists in setting. Does Paizo have liscence to Star Trek? Narnia? Tolkien? Nope.Is it all part of the Golarion setting? Yep. Can it ever see print? That's a legal/money issue that equates to a big ol' nope. But again copyright law isn't an in setting issue. That said, does Galactus exist in Pathfinder? Well mostly I was just being cheeky about the whole Great Old Ones are so uber-tough thing. Honestly having them all get eaten by a giant silly purple guy in a ridiculous hat is no less than they deserve.
But does he exist? Apparently it's fuzzy. He certainly could. The most frustating answer I could give would be: it's up to you! It's your game, so have whatever you want to exist exist. Total freedom wheee! Not much of an answer.
My personal take? He likely does exist in some form, probably one of the visiting deities who ventured here from another universe. His outfit is probably less superheroey in Golarion though.
If it turns out he doesn't exist?
Then Cthuhlu gets eaten by Unicron. The End.
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It does in published setting.Nope.
The planet Vulcan's out there somewhere, as is Narnia and Middle Earth. In some cases, time AND space separates these lands from Golarion, but in some cases only space separates them.So apparently there's lots of stuff that legally belongs to other folks that exists in setting. Does Paizo have liscence to Star Trek? Narnia? Tolkien? Nope.Is it all part of the Golarion setting? Yep. Can it ever see print? That's a legal/money issue that equates to a big ol' nope. But again copyright law isn't an in setting issue. That said, does Galactus exist in Pathfinder? Well mostly I was just being cheeky about the whole Great Old Ones are so uber-tough thing. Honestly having them all get eaten by a giant silly purple guy in a ridiculous hat is no less than they deserve.
But does he exist? Apparently it's fuzzy. He certainly could. The most frustating answer I could give would be: it's up to you! It's your game, so have whatever you want to exist exist. Total freedom wheee! Not much of an answer.
My personal take? He likely does exist in some form, probably one of the visiting deities who ventured here from another universe. His outfit is probably less superheroey in Golarion though.
If it turns out he doesn't exist?
Then Cthuhlu gets eaten by Unicron. The End.
I'd like to think that when Cthulhu rises, he will have with him Maxwell, his Scribblenaut herald at his side to fight Unicron. :)
Sure, no I totally get that they won't appear in published material.
I'd like to think that when Cthulhu rises, he will have with him Maxwell, his Scribblenaut herald at his side to fight Unicron. :)