A Magic User "Mage Killer"

[Psion-Psycho]

@mbauers
usaly no but i have been a part of a few 3.5 games that have gone in2 the mid 40s that were incredibly fun but that took literal irl years of playing the same character. Luckily i have been able to keep that same gaming group this entire time and we all take terns DMing. We have been playing so long that we each have our own world completely flushed out being religious beliefs, econ, seasons, climate changes, world mapping of significance areas, governmental rule and hierarchy, and even historical documentation. The campaign setting has been going on so long that there has been 3 great wars and genocide of actual races and space exploration for 1 of the races because of there discovering of Psionics. All might i add being player based with me, DM, just giving little tid bits here and there and allowing and disallowing certain things of course and going by my moto of "let the dice fall as they may."

[Cold Napalm]

Cathulhu wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

AA + AMF or EK + wall of stone + AMF is generally an easy way to kill makes. AA is of course by far easier to pull off.

Easier isn't always better, and as I remember, this particular brand of napalm has been pretty harsh on AA's in the past...

Still not exactly a fan of them in general...but if you wanna pull of the shtick you wanna pull off...well it is pretty good for that...and the AA to get AMF in a reasonable time table would require you to be an EK honestly with a splash of AA...so basically, fi 1/wiz 5/EK 3/AA 4/EK 7. It's not the best build in general...but as a mage hunter, I find it to be quite good for that.

[Cathulhu]

Well, at the moment i am considering strongly a Fighter 1/Witch 5/EK 10. Thinking of doing the Still Spell+armor thing, since
1.) Hexes aren't affected by spell failure, and it would still be my primary debuff method and
2.) it opens up swift actions for Spell Critical, and Quickened spells and Arcane Strike, while still maintaining a decent physical defense. (AC, in this case.)

Using this method also allows for effective action within an AMF, if necessary. (which i just realized may not be on the Witch spell list, have to check.)

In any case, the Strength Patron would make for a nice melee build. I might also go Half Elf, and do the Bonded Witch archetype. I would use this with the Ring option, for extra defensive spells every day.

[Wasum]

Are you looking for an optimized mage killer or just for some nice builds that might be fun playing? Im not really getting it.

[Barry Armstrong]

Cathulhu wrote:

The problem with Bards , Magi,and Inquisitors is that eventually your benefits against spellcasters will not be able to overcome the various defenses a full caster has at their disposal.

9th level spells are pretty much the only way to meet or beat 9th level spells.

Thus, I REALLY want to be a primary caster. A soldier, a duelist, an assassin whose weapons are his spells. I feel its the only way to be effective in this capacity.

The fact this character would look more like a warrior and carry a sword is more incidental; its secondary to the spells. Making it work with Eldritch Knight would be cool, but unnecessary. Bard, Magus, and Inquisitor all lack the magical prowess I desire here.

*I mostly need help with choosing WHICH primary caster (arcane is very much preferred) and INT based is also very much preferred. (leaving Wizard, Sorcerer ((Sage)) and Witch.) I demand skill points, hence the INT. He needs to be stealthy, physically capable, and knowledgeable.

I don't know which feats are best used against a caster (melee or ranged, it doesn't matter) and I don't know which spells are best against a caster either.*

I think you highly underestimate the Sandman Bard. You can't cast a 9th level spell if you're asleep. But, to each his own.

You aren't going to be "physically capable" as any of those classes. The most survivable one will be Scarred Witch Doctor, but you won't be using INT as a mechanic, you'll be using CON.

It seems like you have a few dealbreakers in mind. Perhaps you should list those out so we can help you find what you seek a bit more?

[blue_the_wolf]

Cathulu.

I think the best thing is not to try and mechanically counter.

instead consider using interuption.

for example... make a Sorc and ensure you have lots of spells like magic missile, scorching ray, silence, dispell magic ETC.

When facing a spell casting opponent dont really focus on countering... simply ready an action to cast spell X when he starts casting. hitting with a solid magic missile or scorching ray will severely hamper your targets ability to cast a spell... not only that... they lose the spell itself.

you can also use dispell magic, silence and other such spells to stop casters more indirectly.

I assume that your in a group and not solo.. thus you can hold down the bad guy while supporting your group and would not have to focus too many feats and abilities on the act of becoming a better counter speller since ready action attack spells are good for regular casting also.

[Cold Napalm]

Cathulhu wrote:

Well, at the moment i am considering strongly a Fighter 1/Witch 5/EK 10. Thinking of doing the Still Spell+armor thing, since

1.) Hexes aren't affected by spell failure, and it would still be my primary debuff method and
2.) it opens up swift actions for Spell Critical, and Quickened spells and Arcane Strike, while still maintaining a decent physical defense. (AC, in this case.)

Using this method also allows for effective action within an AMF, if necessary. (which i just realized may not be on the Witch spell list, have to check.)

In any case, the Strength Patron would make for a nice melee build. I might also go Half Elf, and do the Bonded Witch archetype. I would use this with the Ring option, for extra defensive spells every day.

So...your gonna be 2 spell levels down doing this and your oppose to 6 level casters that can do what you want to do better why?!?

[Cathulhu]

... Because they don't actually do it better?

[Highglander]

Teleport next to your target, make your familiar cast AMF and stick to your target.
Leave AMF and unleash your planar binded minions, golems or whatever you like while preventing a mundane escape (wall of stone and such).
If the target is able to fight decently without magic you may need to somewhat improve your familiar defences.

[WerePox47]

Late to the party, but a magus can get access to any wizard spell of 6ht level or below via spell blending.. I have a 15th level Kensai and by no means is he optimized for mage killing, but with demensional lock via spell blending does the job pretty well.. He has a super high intiative, so usually goes first.. Dem Lock with overland flight on makes it very hard to a mage type to get away..

[Wasum]

Paladin/Sorcerer/DD has access to level 7 spells if built properly, amazing saves, amazing damage, flight, blindsense, contingency, and a lot of other stuff to play around with.

And he can spike the wizard as soon as he sees the opportunity in one full attack.

[LazarX]

Cathulhu wrote:

[If 18 INT is genius level, and most high level wizards have INT in the late 20's minimum, then what genius wizard WON'T be prepared for just such an inevitability? Plus, such a high level genius survived to be a high level; countless battles and encounters are under her belt.

Most NPC Wizards aren't built the way PC's are. And if they are, then again trying to build yourself to take down a foe your level one on one is suicidal. No one works that way, not even a professional assassin, who uses every trick in the book including allies to make that kind of kill.

Any Wizard specced right can take down another wizard. It's all about build.... and who goes first. And who got caught with their pants down.

[trurl]

LazarX wrote:

Cathulhu wrote:

[If 18 INT is genius level, and most high level wizards have INT in the late 20's minimum, then what genius wizard WON'T be prepared for just such an inevitability? Plus, such a high level genius survived to be a high level; countless battles and encounters are under her belt.

Most NPC Wizards aren't built the way PC's are. And if they are, then again trying to build yourself to take down a foe your level one on one is suicidal. No one works that way, not even a professional assassin, who uses every trick in the book including allies to make that kind of kill.

Any Wizard specced right can take down another wizard. It's all about build.... and who goes first. And who got caught with their pants down.

Any divination wizard with maximum perception, initiative, and stealth will be a good assassin. At high level, they always go first and cannot be surprised.

[LazarX]

trurl wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Cathulhu wrote:

[If 18 INT is genius level, and most high level wizards have INT in the late 20's minimum, then what genius wizard WON'T be prepared for just such an inevitability? Plus, such a high level genius survived to be a high level; countless battles and encounters are under her belt.

Most NPC Wizards aren't built the way PC's are. And if they are, then again trying to build yourself to take down a foe your level one on one is suicidal. No one works that way, not even a professional assassin, who uses every trick in the book including allies to make that kind of kill.

Any Wizard specced right can take down another wizard. It's all about build.... and who goes first. And who got caught with their pants down.

Any divination wizard with maximum perception, initiative, and stealth will be a good assassin. At high level, they always go first and cannot be surprised.

More to the point is that big gun wizards never really face each other directly if they can truly help it, because especially at high level, they've got too much to lose. Elminster and Manshoon hardly ever go at it directly, usually throwing one set of flunkies at another set of flunkies. They play chess games with each other and retreat if the losses get too great. When they are taken down, it's generally by a group of capables, not solo agents.

[Overcast]

In the current campaign I'm running (which has spanned several years and taken us from 1 to 18), I'm playing what's evolved into a high level wizard killer. He's a melee sorcerer, his build revolving around self-buff and anti-magic spells. But sorcerer/dragon disciple that wades into combat with the usual package of melee buffs (in his case, Giant Form II, Greater Heroism, Haste, Protection from Energy, True Seeing, Arcane Sight, Nondetection, Spell Turning, Spell Resistence, Greater Spell Immunity, etc... Then you pop the Mage's Disjunction and Quickened Dimensional anchor on your target spellcaster. At that point it's just mop up detail. The nice thing is that as a sorcerer, you're more than adept with Use Magic Device, which allows you to boost yourself with Prayer Beads, and other divine spells you might want to play with. It's always nice to keep pocket heals on scrolls, just in case things go badly.

[Wasum]

In the time you buff you up with all these spells the wizard killed you with his light crossbow:P

[WerePox47]

Or has Greater Dispeled you to death... Or just had a sandwich and watched and then flew away... Any DM that would allow you to buff that much before combat isnt trying to challenge his grp.. I can understand long lasting buffs and maybe 2-3 spells as combat starts with quicken spells, but not a dozen... My group has successfully killed several high level casters with solid tatics, not on there own.. Priest constantly g.dispeling, dem anchor goes off, then its usually a chase till somone gets a full attack off..

[Overcast]

Except that many of those buffs last long enough to cast out of combat. The rest of them are easily cast within combat with nonactions (like Haste). At 18th level, with an Extend Rod, even minute/level duration is feasible to cast when you know combat is fairly likely. And the majority of those spells are long-lasting. As for the Greater Dispel, did you not see the Prayer Beads part? I'm more than willing to take a chance against Greater Dispel.

It's a high level campaign, if a GM can't handle massive buffs, then he shouldn't be GMing high level campaigns. If, in the case of having GM's that tried to strong-arm me away from self-buffing, well it's easy enough to start with a Quickened, Empowered Time-Stop, self-buff, then proceed to go to town as per usual.

[Wasum]

If a wizard lets you buff like that even before combat he is appearently doing something wrong. But if you're standing at a door knowing the smart evil wizard is waiting behind without noticing you and without preparing as well - then this might actually work. Unless the wizard gets the same preparation time.

Seriously you're talking about 10 buffs.

[Overcast]

Yes, and that's optimally buffed for big 'showdown' fights. Show my a single encounter in an adventure path where the PCs 'don't' know that they're about to fight the BBEG. He doesn't go into all encounters with full buffs running (Giant Form II for example is rarely needed, in fact he prefers his Ring of permanent Enlarge Person for normal combats, as going Huge negates his ability to ride his cohort (a Huge silver dragon). Honestly, none of the buffs are needed to actually kill the wizard. The Mage's Disjunction/Quickened Dimensional Anchor is enough to kill any wizard. The buffs are only needed in BBEG fights because the wizard isn't alone, and you need those buffs to hold off all his minions after you kill him.

And again, many of those buffs are hour/level or 24 hour buffs; in fact, the significant anti-wizard buffs can all be pre-cast upon awakening. It's the melee buffs that require time and those are only needed if the wizard isn't going to be alone.

[Wasum]

One of the buffs you listed lasts 1hour/level: nondetection.

[Overcast]

Let's look at the buffs I mentioned:

Nondetection Duration: 1 hour/level, CL 24 (24 hour duration)
Spell Turning Duration: 10 minutes/level, CL 24 (480 minutes with Extend Spell = 8 hours duration)
Spell ResistenceDuration: 1 minute/level (worth casting when danger is imminent, but not part of the daily buffs. Can be precast before combat though, because with Extend Spell, this does last over half an hour)
Protection from Energy Duration: 10 minutes/level, CL 24 (480 minutes with Extend Spell = 8 hours duration)
Greater Spell Immunity Duration: 10 minutes/level, CL 24 (480 minutes with Extend Spell = 8 hours duration)It's worth noting that this makes you immune to Greater Dispel Magic, along with a variety of other effects.
True Seeing Duration: 1 minute/level (worth casting when danger is imminent, but not part of the daily buffs. Can be precast before combat though, because with Extend Spell, this does last over half an hour)
Arcane Sight Duration: 1 minute/level (worth casting when danger is imminent, but not part of the daily buffs. Can be precast before combat though, because with Extend Spell, this does last over half an hour)

Giant Form II and Greater Heroism are combat buffs cast only when we're dealing with multiple opponents with significant melee abilities. Haste is as needed due to Boots of Speed. Spells like Arcane Sight and True Seeing are often cast as needed, True Seeing in particular is recast whenever it goes down, if he's ever out adventuring.

So tell me how, exactly, that it's unrealistic to walk around with these buffs? Let me also state that he has no offensive spells (save Enervation). Buffing and debuffing is all he does, along with lots of damage via melee combat (+5 holy keen lance, Spirited Charge on his dragon).

[Highglander]

prayer beads
Thing is, you can't use it as an arcane spellcaster since you can't cast divine spells. Activating spell trigger or completion items with a divine spell on it doesn't count. Plus it would only gives you +4 caster level. good luck against this guy, which by the way, would be a terrific mage killer with a random man at arms cohort.

"Greater Spell Immunity Duration: 10 minutes/level, CL 24 (480 minutes with Extend Spell = 8 hours duration)It's worth noting that this makes you immune to Greater Dispel Magic, along with a variety of other effects."
It doesn't work on dispel magic, because dispel isn't affected by spell resistance.
spell immunity
=> The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells. Naturally, that immunity doesn't protect a creature from spells for which spell resistance doesn't apply.

So your guy is just a random dude with a "dispel me" sign over his head. One disjunction and he's done. Plus all his buffing won't save him from AMF, gates, massive summoning, prismatic spheres and such, and these are spells discussed here (OP is insisting on ways to defeat 9 level spells).

ps : don't forget that a diviner will almost always go first, and is a possible target for the would be mage killer.

[Wasum]

Well, maybe we shpuld consider the rules of the game when comparing different builds and how they deal with high level wizards...

[Overcast]

Funny, AMF is one of the spells he runs, because even without buffs, he's far better than any wizard. So yeah, dropping AMF is pretty much auto-death for any high level caster. Good luck there. Massive summoning again is dispelled by either disjunction or AMF, prismatic spheres are irrelevant, so the only real obstacle you've presented are gates. And yes, gating is an issue, which is the only time he actually needs his melee buffs. But gate can't protect the caster from dying, and the summoned monsters can be dealt with after that.

And if a diviner is the only wizard build you can come up with that can present a challenge for him, then I'd say in the majority of fights, it's a fairly solid build. Again, while the dispeller is casting Greater Dispel, he's getting disjoined and one-shot. So sure, spend actions dispelling, because on a playing field without magic, the wizard is going to lose.

As for the Prayer Beads, oh no, whatever will I do, I can't cast divine spells. Oh wait, I have Use Magic Device, to emulate the class feature of casting divine magic. Oh right, those rules things are a pain to read, aren't they?

[Overcast]

Also as a side note that's a good point about Greater Spell Immunity, although Spell Turning still works against Greater Dispel, so it's not much of a loss there. And that would help work against that exact build you linked me. I didn't read it in depth, but being able to deflect his Dispel and stun him would pretty much destroy him right from the get-go, no?

I'm not saying this build is an optimized beat everything build. But the OP asked for ideas on how to make a magic-using mage killer, and considering I'm currently playing one to very good effect, I thought I'd chime in and share the concept at the very least. And considering that you haven't seen the build, but are just dissecting the idea without knowing any of the numbers behind it is ridiculous. I already know it works, I'm not asking for your opinion on that, I'm providing the theoretical idea for a guy that was asking for it.

And yes, the dispeller would also make a very good mage-killer. As would a counterspeller. Both builds have some limitations to them that make them vulnerable to other things that this build isn't vulnerable to. So there's pros and cons to different builds, this is only one of many routes someone could go.

[Overcast]

And sorry, Highglander, my sarcasm was meant more for Wassum than you. You brought up legitimate points, instead of Wassum's passive aggressive pot-shots and "Oh noes, guys, who said u get to buff before going into a fight, ur PCs, u should ALWAYS be surprised." So your ideas are welcomed, and I do appreciate the distinction on Greater Spell Immunity. But I still stand behind this build as being an effective one for someone that wants to try wizard-killing with a magic-using build.

[Cold Napalm]

Cathulhu wrote:

... Because they don't actually do it better?

But that is where you are wrong. The summoner and magus can outfight the EK. Hands down...no question about it. I like the EK...but seriously, you get your ass whoop in the fighting department compared to those two. The magus can get pretty much all the must have spells you wanted anyways...especially as your gonna be 2 spell levels down with your idea. The summoner pet can pretty much do a grab and pin and watch the poor wizard squirm. The only valid reason to go with EK is you want access to higher level spells...which your forgoing...so it makes no sense to use the EK in this case.

[Wasum]

I'm sorry, but seriously, we were talking about builds to defeat wizards and you came with a semi-optimized EK that buffs himself up like crazy, uses items that do not exist and claim it to be the best build to defeat a high level wizard. But 1) you messed up rules, 2) you assumed to have an advantage over the wizard 3) even if your build was legal - the wizard is likely to win Ini and then you will be in trouble.

And as said above - lots of other builds do this better.

[Atarlost]

Cathulhu wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

Here's a question. How does a wizard beat contingency that a bard or magus can't? Because a well designed contingency is going to get a wizard out of nearly anything. The bard or magus has an equal will save, a better reflex or fortitude save, and an equal caster level.

Schroedinger's wizard is basically unkillable outside a dead magic zone. If all NPC wizards are Schroedinger the only viable mage killer is the DM.

And yet, when planning to fight a wizard you need to assume a worst case scenario. You need to assume (and try to plan accordingly)that the spoellcaster you are trying to kill has defenses and plans you haven't thought of.

In the worst case you might as well stay home no matter what your class. You don't need to plan for that case because no plan can effect it.

Quote:

Yes, contingency saves the day, regardless of my class. What does a Bard or Magus do against an invisible flying wizard though?

facepalm

See invisibility followed by glitterdust if you have companions and a composite shortbow for bards. A bard has been able to counter flying wizards for a full level by the time the wizard learns fly.

Magus appears to have an even lamer spell list than I thought and lacks see invisible. What were they thinking? I retract my suggestion of magus and whoever wrote their spell list should feel bad for making a terrible one note combat munchkin class instead of a proper hybrid.

Quote:

At least if I play a wizard, I can try Dimensional Anchor to prevent my enemy from teleporting away... Something a Bard or Magus cannot do. Level 6 spells and a handful of cool class features do not equal level 9 spells.

You want to kill Schrödinger's wizard. Schrödinger's wizard used divinations to watch you prepare your spells and if you have dimensional anchor he has it in his Ring of Counterspells. The DM ALWAYS wins the game you're trying to play.

[Cold Napalm]

Wasum wrote:

I'm sorry, but seriously, we were talking about builds to defeat wizards and you came with a semi-optimized EK that buffs himself up like crazy, uses items that do not exist and claim it to be the best build to defeat a high level wizard. But 1) you messed up rules, 2) you assumed to have an advantage over the wizard 3) even if your build was legal - the wizard is likely to win Ini and then you will be in trouble.

And as said above - lots of other builds do this better.

No...he used a DD...no EK here.

[Wasum]

Oh, yea, you're right, sorry:P But doesnt really change anything

[Overcast]

Except the fact that your points again don't hold water. But if you couldn't even be bothered to read in enough detail to get the class right, I'm done arguing with you on anything else. Come back when you have something useful or constructive to offer, otherwise I'm done dealing with trolls.

[Highglander]

Quote:

And sorry, Highglander, my sarcasm was meant more for Wassum than you.

No offense taken, I don't doubt your character has been successful in dealing with casters, but it won't be able to deal with someone who wants to stay alive. I had an encounter yesterday against a custom succubus, I didn't even manage to toss a dimensional anchor before she teleported away, and we're discussing high level wizards here, with divination spells and loads of items and contingency plans.

I stand corrected on the beads though, I tend to forget about some of the things UMD can do. However I think it is not really practical to have all these beads to maintain all these buffs.
Also, I never said the target would cast AMF on himself (which as you said is pure suicide for a straight caster), nor did I say that he would use gate to summon something. You can ask your familiar to cast AMF, use gate to bluff your pursuer to follow you and leave him there (and he will follow if he wants to kill you). These are just examples, you can find many threads on these boards discussing combo or creative uses of spells.
On a side note, greater magic dispel have an AOE function spell turning won't prevent.

Back on topic and to suggest more builds, I always wanted to try this, it would be a fun scry and die tactic. With a fire elemental familiar and loads of clones or simulacrum it can be doable :).

[Overcast]

You're right on that account. While the build does extremely well against casters and has some ability to block their escape, it's not going to be able to force a fully optimized high level caster from fleeing if they're set up to do so. I suggested it because the OP stated he wanted a martial full caster build that could kill mages. In that, I think the the build has merit.

As for the buffs and being item-dependent, yeah ihave a predeliction for crafting feats and UMD. My PCs generally carry around twice the usual number of items by character wealth. Anyhow, I'll be the first to admit it's not a fully optimized build, but again, I had the impression this was a thread about a niche build, not necessarily an excersize in optimization.

[Cold Napalm]

Overcast wrote:

You're right on that account. While the build does extremely well against casters and has some ability to block their escape, it's not going to be able to force a fully optimized high level caster from fleeing if they're set up to do so. I suggested it because the OP stated he wanted a martial full caster build that could kill mages. In that, I think the the build has merit.

As for the buffs and being item-dependent, yeah ihave a predeliction for crafting feats and UMD. My PCs generally carry around twice the usual number of items by character wealth. Anyhow, I'll be the first to admit it's not a fully optimized build, but again, I had the impression this was a thread about a niche build, not necessarily an excersize in optimization.

Except your NOT a full caster. No 9th level spell = NOT A FULL CASTER. Hell you don't even get 8th so your just basically a SMIDGE above the 3/4 casters...which I can guarantee can out melee you.

And craft feats are NOT SUPPOSE TO BE A DOUBLE YOUR WEALTH FEAT. That unbalances games something fierce and if that is the case, that is an individual DM issue that you can NOT ASSUME IS THE DEFAULT.

[Atarlost]

Cold Napalm wrote:

And craft feats are NOT SUPPOSE TO BE A DOUBLE YOUR WEALTH FEAT. That unbalances games something fierce and if that is the case, that is an individual DM issue that you can NOT ASSUME IS THE DEFAULT.

The craft feats are supposed to double your wealth according to the official Paizo faq. If your GM is playing otherwise he cannot claim to be playing by RAW or RAI.

[Cold Napalm]

Atarlost wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

And craft feats are NOT SUPPOSE TO BE A DOUBLE YOUR WEALTH FEAT. That unbalances games something fierce and if that is the case, that is an individual DM issue that you can NOT ASSUME IS THE DEFAULT.

The craft feats are supposed to double your wealth according to the official Paizo faq. If your GM is playing otherwise he cannot claim to be playing by RAW or RAI.

WOW...that is unbalanced. SKR failed to realize that the crafter can craft FOR THE ENTIRE PARTY in that FAQ. So for the price of a few feats, you can double your wealth which is at LEAST +1 APL eqv...if not +2. Yeah the crafting MAYBE should give you a small boost...but the BIGGEST advantage is that you get to tailor make the items to your wants and needs.

[Azaelas Fayth]

But if you look you are using Most if not all your Feats for the Crafting Feats plus you need the downtime to craft.

[Cold Napalm]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

But if you look you are using Most if not all your Feats for the Crafting Feats plus you need the downtime to craft.

Ignoring consumables, you need 5. Wondrous, arms and armor, ring, rod and staff. If ONE person is taking them all and you have ZERO bonus feats, you have to use up half your feats...but you can spread that out between the divine and arcane caster in the group as well so...yeah really not a big deal for double wealth for the ENTIRE party.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Double wealth isn't major for the Entire Party. One person gaining double wealth might cause conflict between players but for the entire party it just means they can get the items they need/want quicker.

[Cold Napalm]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Double wealth isn't major for the Entire Party. One person gaining double wealth might cause conflict between players but for the entire party it just means they can get the items they need/want quicker.

Double wealth for one person causes player issues...double for the entire party causes mechanical issues. In the hands of people who have the basic grasp of system mastery, this cause the CR system to fracture. In the hands of somebody who has moderate system mastery, the CR system breaks. In the hands of the people with high system mastery, the CR system gets ground to dust and blown in the winds. Double wealth is a HUGE deal.

[Azaelas Fayth]

All it takes is the GM knowing how to use the system. The CR system is just a Guideline. It isn't a hard and fast rule.

[blackbloodtroll]

You are free to houserule them away.

[Quandary]

Cold Napalm wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

The craft feats are supposed to double your wealth according to the official Paizo faq. If your GM is playing otherwise he cannot claim to be playing by RAW or RAI.

WOW...that is unbalanced. SKR failed to realize that the crafter can craft FOR THE ENTIRE PARTY in that FAQ.

I believe SKR wrote elsewhere that this doesn't apply to PC-crafted items sold/given to other PCs... In those cases, normal price applies regarding their WBL, i.e. whatever the PC charges their friends, the items count as wealth per their full price UNLESS they are SELF-crafted in which case they count as per their full cost. (found items also count as full price even when looted or found abandoned, even though they weren't payed for at full price from the PC's gold... i guess broken items (that are never fixed) count as less, which is a bonus for Breaker Barbarians)

But yeah, for better or worse, Paizo seems to feel that needing to have the type-limited Craft Magic Item Feats (one per each type) is enough to balance doubling personal wealth for that class of items. Of course, in most real campaigns you probably can't craft ALL your items, so a game where you have done so is a signifigant departure from baseline even though no 'rule' or even 'guideline' is being broken. As is well known, Craft Wondrous Item is pretty much the most broadly useful of the Craft Feats, and for non-martials, it is pretty much their prime Craft Feat anyways, so not being able to Craft Arms or Armor is too bad for Fighter types, but Full Casters can get the maximum personal benefits out of that one Feat.

[Cold Napalm]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

All it takes is the GM knowing how to use the system. The CR system is just a Guideline. It isn't a hard and fast rule.

So is the WBL. Hell NO rule is hard and fast because of rule zero...but we can't really take that into account now can we. We tend to use these guidelines as rules so we have a baseline. I realize that almost NO game runs at this baseline...but it is pretty much the only frame of reference we really have.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You are free to houserule them away.

And it is so done in pretty much all the games throughout the planet as I have yet to see any game that ran STRICT WBL.

[Cold Napalm]

Quandary wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

The craft feats are supposed to double your wealth according to the official Paizo faq. If your GM is playing otherwise he cannot claim to be playing by RAW or RAI.

WOW...that is unbalanced. SKR failed to realize that the crafter can craft FOR THE ENTIRE PARTY in that FAQ.

I believe SKR wrote elsewhere that this doesn't apply to PC-crafted items sold/given to other PCs... In those cases, normal price applies regarding their WBL, i.e. whatever the PC charges their friends, the items count as wealth per their full price UNLESS they are SELF-crafted in which case they count as per their full cost. (found items also count as full price even when looted or found abandoned, even though they weren't payed for at full price from the PC's gold... i guess broken items (that are never fixed) count as less, which is a bonus for Breaker Barbarians)

But yeah, for better or worse, Paizo seems to feel that needing to have the type-limited Craft Magic Item Feats (one per each type) is enough to balance doubling personal wealth for that class of items. Of course, in most real campaigns you probably can't craft ALL your items, so a game where you have done so is a signifigant departure from baseline even though no 'rule' or even 'guideline' is being broken. As is well known, Craft Wondrous Item is pretty much the most broadly useful of the Craft Feats, and for non-martials, it is pretty much their prime Craft Feat anyways, so not being able to Craft Arms or Armor is too bad for Fighter types, but Full Casters can get the maximum personal benefits out of that one Feat.

Well fighters can craft arms and armor with a feat now too (but craft wondrous is a LOT harder for fighter types however). That said, while ruling that the breaking of the WBL be JUST for the crafter would mitigate the impact of crafting on the mechanics of everything else...it is not exactly what would bring about party unity. I'm sorry, but I honestly don't know which system I abhor more...one where the mechanics gets utterly dusted or one in which you actively breed player discontent.

[Quandary]

yeah, I don't think Paizo's stance is good either... I just wanted to make clear what their stance is.
re: wondrous items, that feat is disproportionately powerful, because it covers such a broad spectrum of items, permanent and consumable. Casters' wealth spending, at least Arcane Casters, doesn't really match the guidelines anyways (in terms of area) because armor and weapons just don't play to their strengths, and they should really choose other defensive options than trying to play the AC game... So for them, Craft Wondrous Item doubling their WBL for that item class is pretty much very close to doubing their WBL, period.

really, aside from the WBL issue, Craft Wondrous Item should be broken down into other Feats, or absorbed into others: e.g. Elixers/Dusts/et al should be made part of Craft Potions, even if they aren't Potions per se and have different rules, they are still consumables. Other areas of Wondrous Items could likewise be hived off to other Craft Feats, to make it more balanced. But I guess that can be saved for Pathfinder 2.0, along with changing how spells fit into spell schools, etc.

[Mapleswitch]

What does WBL stand for?

[Mapleswitch]

I have encountered 2 spells that generate positive cash flows when cast. I have never had a player use either spell during a game.