Unless the DM is biased in favor of the melee classes, then the real difference will become noticeable around levels 5-8.
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Generally these thought experiments start with the wizard tailoring their spells for combat, have their full complement of those spells, full hit points and start far enough away that they won't get eviscerated in the opening exchange.
The person behind the character is a huge factor in whether either side will come out ahead.
While wizards are powerful I think a fighter at any level can easily take it given that they shape the battlefield, rather than just marching straight ahead swinging their longsword like a lobotomized lumberjack.
Fighter: "Okay, I keep waking him in the middle of the night, then I cleave him into salsa once he tries to memorize his spells..."
His oppinion is they are Always the winner. not even a single chance given the randomness of the encounter, Who wins initiative. Nothing changes the fact that the Wizard always wins.
Never.
One word: vorpal.
I win initiative (likely since I was out bench pressing the neighbours while you were learning the clarinet), I chop off your head, I get a soda.
Must be a change in Pathfinder. No way in 3.5 could an 8th level Wizard stand up to an 8th level fighter. All I know is our 1st level party took apart an 8th level Wizard in our first adventure with 6 characters. Half the party was down or charmed but the wizard couldn't affect my rogue!
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The leader of my gaming group states without a doubt that under NO circumstance is an equal level/equal treasure fighter ever better then or have a chance to beat a wizard.
Scenario: Chance encounter, random battlefield, random range of initial contact. No prescient knowledge that he was gonna be fighting anyone today just your normally memorized spells.
Group leader says Wizard ALWAYS wins no matter the character level.
He is wrong.
Initiative decides those kind of battles, as the fighter can drop the Wizard in a round if they get the jump, and SoS spells could do the same.
Unless he plays in a game without ranged weapons :)
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The leader of my gaming group states without a doubt that under NO circumstance is an equal level/equal treasure fighter ever better then or have a chance to beat a wizard.
Scenario: Chance encounter, random battlefield, random range of initial contact. No prescient knowledge that he was gonna be fighting anyone today just your normally memorized spells.
Group leader says Wizard ALWAYS wins no matter the character level.
Scenarios like this have the greatest chance of happening with DM's who give wizards the easy street treatment which includes but is not limited to the following.
1. Custom magic item crafting. Frequently with open doors of abuse wide enough to drive a MACK truck through.
2. Unlimited spell access. When wizards can shop for any spell they need to put into their books, with trivial amounts of effort.
3. Loose spell interpretations. When you have two ways to interpret a spell, they choose the wizard friendly interpretation.
4. Magic-Mart. Board wisdom here says item availability helps fighters, but it helps wizards even more in escaping the inherent limits of their class, mainly low AC and hit points.
5. The 15 minute Wizard. Wizards who leave half or more of their spell slots "open" and there never is a campaign penalty for doing so.
6. Schrodinger's Wizard. (a close relative of 15 Minute Wizard) You've seen him, the one who always has the right spell prepared for the occasion.
7. The predictable campaign. DM's who never vary their tactics against the group, allow a wizard to develop a guaranteed optimized spell list.
Don't forget to add this one:
8: Always walks around with the right spells already cast and ready to go when it would normally take about 8 rounds of straight casting to get where they want to be.
Edit: Thought of another one.
9: The enemy always somehow fail their saves in the scenarios.
Edit Edit:
10: The enemies always stand to the side huddled together in a mass clump and wait for the wizard to land those AoE spells, and fail their save.
Lol ciretose. It is not just initiative but the circumstances that can decide these things. I have also had 9th level wiz hold off entire parties and send them running w/o support! All but one that is that ended up in his pocket as a mouse.
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Lol ciretose. It is not just initiative but the circumstances that can decide these things. I have also had 9th level wiz hold off entire parties and send them running w/o support! All but one that is that ended up in his pocket as a mouse.
And if he lost initiative he would have been dead in the first round if the fighter was within bow range.
If you are talking about a wizard getting pre-buffing and sneaking up on a party, that is schrodingers wizard in action.
For every story I hear about uber wizard there is a story of "I'm out of useful spells" or "I failed the fort save"
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Wizards get nothing but worse the longer encounters tick along as a rule. Summoning can help that a bit, the fighter on the other hand gets nothing but scarier the longer things go.
Wizards = good out of the gate, but not much for stamina
Fighters = can go all night
Xenh is completely right. The OP's friends may be partially correct (though a wizard can still be taken down in one round if the fighter goes first), but let's try a different scenario: Both characters have been in a hazardous battle all day with, let's say, orcs.
The fighter will still be ready to keep fighting--maybe a bit injured, but he's probably got healing potions. The wizard, meanwhile, will be badly battered and without most of his combat spells. No contest.
Going to go with the consensus here. At no point does the wizard become the GOD you're describing, at least not that I've seen. Most of the balance/class/etc issues that come up on the boards aren't ones that I've ever encountered in my campaigns.
Wizards are squishy, and a lucky/prepared fighter will mop the floor with them. Literally. Spellcasters, especially min/max ubers don't do will once you pin them.
Wizards are versatile, and a well prepared/lucky one will turn the fighter into minion/statue/dust.
Rogues are stabby, and a well prepared/lucky one will sneak attack either one into oblivion. Vice-verse, a fighter can chop the rogue into dog meat, and the wizard can do as above.
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There is always... Antagonize!
The fighter will still be ready to keep fighting--maybe a bit injured, but he's probably got healing potions. The wizard, meanwhile, will be badly battered and without most of his combat spells. No contest.
Is this like a Schroedinger's Fighter, then? I mean, "fighter can go all day" assumes that he has infinite access to healing spells, potions, etc. -- and at the same time, we're supposed to assume the wizard has zero access to scrolls, etc. (which is especially wonky since the wizard specifically gets the ability to make scrolls as a class feature, so why wouldn't he have them?).
Not really? Healing potions are dirt common. The wizard probably has them, too.
Contigency. Which level did a Wizard get that?
11th level Wizard can get Contingency. At 11th, may only tie what -- 2nd level spells? -- to Contingency effect, jumping to 3rd @ 12th level, if my top-of-the-head recall of Contingency is correct? Maybe it starts at 3rd and jumps to 4th @ 12th level, not sure.
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Any frail, pale bookworm that enters combat wearing nothing more than wedding dress is never going to be unbeatable.
How about me build an encounter for five people and just take the Wizard through and see how far he gets?
Also, who ever posts the Wizard needs to post their spell list for the day before the encounter is posted.
Um. Every wizard should be posting their daily memorized spells on their sheet. If it isn't on there, you didn't memorize it. That allows the other players to trust that you aren't cheating. They have the opportunity to copy down your spells and count out uses (if they want) so wizards then stay honest.
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If the fighter is wielding a 2d6 Great sword with a strength of 20 so that his modifier to damage is 1.5*5 = 7 (rounded down) giving a 2d6+7 damage roll. If he wins initiative and gets a confirmed critical hit and rolls max that is 19*2 = 38. If he has the bleeding critical feat the fighter could inflict a max of 50 damage before the wizard is able to do anything. If the fighter also has the step-up feat and the wizard takes his chances and risks an AOO the fighter could easily hit hard enough to knock off the 10 or so remaining HP for a level 8 wizard and kill him before the wizard gets one spell off. This could even happen if the fighter didn't roll max depending on the wizards HP.
So it is not impossible.
Edit: I suppose for the bleeding critical feat the Fighter would have to be level 11. A wizards HP at level 11 could be 66 so the fighter could still win before the wizard can really do anything.
Um. Every wizard should be posting their daily memorized spells on their sheet. If it isn't on there, you didn't memorize it. That allows the other players to trust that you aren't cheating. They have the opportunity to copy down your spells and count out uses (if they want) so wizards then stay honest.How about me build an encounter for five people and just take the Wizard through and see how far he gets?
Also, who ever posts the Wizard needs to post their spell list for the day before the encounter is posted.
I think he means, for the encounter he planned on building, anyone who says they beat it with a wizard should post, here, what their spells for the day were
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Not the best tactic. For damage and archer would do better but if you want melee then falchion + cornugon smash + dazzing assault.If the fighter is wielding a 2d6 Great sword with a strength of 20 so that his modifier to damage is 1.5*5 = 7 (rounded down) giving a 2d6+7 damage roll. If he wins initiative and gets a confirmed critical hit and rolls max that is 19*2 = 38. If he has the bleeding critical feat the fighter could inflict a max of 50 damage before the wizard is able to do anything. If the fighter also has the step-up feat and the wizard takes his chances and risks an AOO the fighter could easily hit hard enough to knock off the 10 or so remaining HP for a level 8 wizard and kill him before the wizard gets one spell off. This could even happen if the fighter didn't roll max depending on the wizards HP.
So it is not impossible.
Edit: I suppose for the bleeding critical feat the Fighter would have to be level 11. A wizards HP at level 11 could be 66 so the fighter could still win before the wizard can really do anything.
Sure, but the point was to counter the claim that a wizard would win hands down.
If the fighter is wielding a 2d6 Great sword with a strength of 20 so that his modifier to damage is 1.5*5 = 7 (rounded down) giving a 2d6+7 damage roll. If he wins initiative and gets a confirmed critical hit and rolls max that is 19*2 = 38. If he has the bleeding critical feat the fighter could inflict a max of 50 damage before the wizard is able to do anything. If the fighter also has the step-up feat and the wizard takes his chances and risks an AOO the fighter could easily hit hard enough to knock off the 10 or so remaining HP for a level 8 wizard and kill him before the wizard gets one spell off. This could even happen if the fighter didn't roll max depending on the wizards HP.
So it is not impossible.
Edit: I suppose for the bleeding critical feat the Fighter would have to be level 11. A wizards HP at level 11 could be 66 so the fighter could still win before the wizard can really do anything.
Why wouldn't that fighter take Power Attack? This is a level 8 fighter, right? That's an extra +9 to damage, or +18 on a crit.
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Why wouldn't that fighter take Power Attack? This is a level 8 fighter, right? That's an extra +9 to damage, or +18 on a crit.If the fighter is wielding a 2d6 Great sword with a strength of 20 so that his modifier to damage is 1.5*5 = 7 (rounded down) giving a 2d6+7 damage roll. If he wins initiative and gets a confirmed critical hit and rolls max that is 19*2 = 38. If he has the bleeding critical feat the fighter could inflict a max of 50 damage before the wizard is able to do anything. If the fighter also has the step-up feat and the wizard takes his chances and risks an AOO the fighter could easily hit hard enough to knock off the 10 or so remaining HP for a level 8 wizard and kill him before the wizard gets one spell off. This could even happen if the fighter didn't roll max depending on the wizards HP.
So it is not impossible.
Edit: I suppose for the bleeding critical feat the Fighter would have to be level 11. A wizards HP at level 11 could be 66 so the fighter could still win before the wizard can really do anything.
Whoops you are right. Then he could do 50+ on a crit with one attack and if you are using the optional massive damage rule or if the wizard had low hp he may just die outright.
He would need either a 16 Constitution, a 14 Constitution and four Favored Class +1s, or a 12 Constitution, four Favored Class +1s and Toughness.
Or he could roll well above average, of course. But if we go with the wizard's average HP, and the fighter's average damage, the fighter deals 46 damage on a crit (50 if he has a +2 sword). The wizard goes down.
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I think a lot of you are missing the most critical, technical, aspect of this comparison. If the DM *believes* Wizards always win, then due to our good friend, confirmation bias, Wizards will always win.
From the OP:
Scenario: Chance encounter, random battlefield, random range of initial contact. No prescient knowledge that he was gonna be fighting anyone today just your normally memorized spells.
From this I understood that two players would be engaging in PVP. I assumed the rolls are in the open and not open to DM fudging. In this case the DM would only serve to handle rule disputes.
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Aaaand go to grapple.
If the wizard wants to force saves, the fighter can have good saves (if the feats have been spent). Seen it.
If the wizard wants to cause damage the fighter has hp. Seen them soak and move up.
If the wizard wants to summon, that can take a while and the fighter may close. Seen it.
If the wizard is not buffed, protected and ready, an archer fighter may shoot the wizard to death in one round. Seen it.
Strangely in our groups, the melees usually beat the spellcasters. Guess the dice favour them.
Generally these thought experiments start with the wizard tailoring their spells for combat, have their full complement of those spells, full hit points and start far enough away that they won't get eviscerated in the opening exchange.
The person behind the character is a huge factor in whether either side will come out ahead.
While wizards are powerful I think a fighter at any level can easily take it given that they shape the battlefield, rather than just marching straight ahead swinging their longsword like a lobotomized lumberjack.
Fighter: "Okay, I keep waking him in the middle of the night, then I cleave him into salsa once he tries to memorize his spells..."
Skirmish to victory.
I think a lot of you are missing the most critical, technical, aspect of this comparison. If the DM *believes* Wizards always win, then due to our good friend, confirmation bias, Wizards will always win.
Yeah. :D
Except when they get critted and their head flies off their shoulders.
The only way to prove that assertion is to run the escenario at several levels.
I am unsure what resolution would be offered considering the mind-numbing explosions of potential combinations with different types of wizards, archetypes, spell choices, fighter combinations/archetypes, weapon choices, magical item selection, spell availability, spells memorized, player choices, et friggin cetera.
All you could say is that so and so choices came out ahead of so and so combinations...this time.
Speaking back to the OP's question...never. Outside of that they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Both can kill the other one in a single attack, but only one wears a frilly lace thong to battle.
The thing is that the Ops Dm make a universal assertion "under any circumstance...", with just one exception that asserton will be proven wrong.
Aha, now I understand. Sorry I was slow on the uptake :)
I was still fixated on the vorpal nail clippers that end the combat with one swing, unless you're fighting the god Loki.
Any frail, pale bookworm that enters combat wearing nothing more than wedding dress is never going to be unbeatable.I disagree river tam from firefly is or was a book worm how else was she a genius and Willow from Buffy could beat just about anyone in a wedding dress.
Of course they can kick butt, they have levels in fighter.
Think how much better they'd be at fighting if they didn't waste time on learning such drivel and instead worked on their abs.