RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.Third time is the charm? How do you go about bypassing this part of the rules?
That's not talking about things like chill touch where you get multiple hits, that's talking about spells that let you touch groups of creatures all at once, and goes along with the rule that states you can touch up to six allies as a full-round action.
These are two entirely separate things.
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Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.Third time is the charm? How do you go about bypassing this part of the rules?
Nothing in chill touch says you can touch multiple targets as part of the spell. That's for things like Teleport.
Using that rule to apply to Chill Touch means you get (caster level) attacks granted as part of casting, which is massively broken.
Chill touch gives you a touch attack you can use a number of times equal to your caster level. Those uses last until you use them; you recharge them by re-casting the spell. You do get a touch in the round you cast it (since it's a touch spell, you use the rules for touch spells).
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Whole citations are better, especially with teh question, as the questions lead the answer:
Ok, How does Frostbite (or Chill Touch) work even by itself? Do you get the multiple touches in the round you cast it (like the section on Touch Spells says) or do you get one touch a round until they are exhausted? And depending on that answer...
How do Chill Touch (or Frostbite) and Spell Combat, and Spellstrike work together???
Inquiring Magii want to know? or maybe their GM's do?
Chill touch gives you a touch attack you can use a number of times equal to your caster level. Those uses last until you use them; you recharge them by re-casting the spell. You do get a touch in the round you cast it (since it's a touch spell, you use the rules for touch spells). When used in Spell Combat or Spellstrike or that stuff, it works like shocking grasp or inflict light wounds on that first round, after which it's just an additional touch attack that you make on its own or as a secondary attack if you also attack with a one-handed weapon.
At least... that's how the current rules work. I'm not sure if that's the way they were INTENDED to work.
Read what James wrote: "When used in Spell Combat or Spellstrike or that stuff, it works like shocking grasp or inflict light wounds on that first round, after which it's just an additional touch attack that you make on its own or as a secondary attack if you also attack with a one-handed weapon."
After the first round "it work as a touch attack", not as a held charge.So, so what is simpler?
Saying that chill touch isn't a held charge
or
saying that chill touch is a held charge that bypass the rules for held charges?
Both interpretations have problems, but yours don't follow the rules more than mine. Simply the Held charges rules don't take into consideration spells with multiple touches.
You dismiss the rules that say that the spell is discharged when you successfully touch a target and the rule that say that you can't touch multiple targets, I dismiss the part that say that touch attack with a instantaneous duration count as held charges it you don't dicharge them the first round.
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Whole citations are better, especially with teh question, as the questions lead the answer
I cut off the end because it didn't make any sense, and was specific to the magus.
"When used in Spell Combat or Spellstrike or that stuff, it works like shocking grasp or inflict light wounds on that first round, after which it's just an additional touch attack that you make on its own or as a secondary attack if you also attack with a one-handed weapon."
That doesn't work with any interpretation of the rules, you can't replace casting a spell with making another attack (Spell Combat), and you can't make an extra attack when you make a normal attack (Spellstrike). The only way to make that work is if he meant "secondary attack" to mean a "secondary effect" if you hit with a weapon.
You dismiss the rules that say that the spell is discharged when you successfully touch a target and the rule that say that you can't touch multiple targets,
If the spell is discharged when you touch a target, then Chill Touch only works once, ever, and then is gone, which is clearly not the intent.
If you can touch multiple targets as part of casting, you are granted a whole bunch of extra attacks as free actions, which is clearly not the intent.
I dismiss the part that say that touch attack with a instantaneous duration count as held charges it you don't dicharge them the first round.
If you don't hold the charge, then the spell stops functioning after the round in which it is cast, which is clearly not the intent.
The only way for chill touch to function is if it's treated like a normal touch spell. Once you've touched caster level targets, then the spell is finished.
too much
Dude, you're wrong.
Grick has it right, you cast the spell and deliver damage each time you hit during however many rounds it takes you to hit something "your caster level" times, or you cast something else.
Diego does have a very good point that the rules use "discharge" to mean multiple things in the case of a multiple-use spell. The assumption that a touch spell can only be delivered once makes things not as clear as they should.
So, given James' ruling, how is this supposed to work now?
Is a granted touch attack still eligible for Spellstrike if it came from a spell cast by a magus, from the magus spell list, with a range of "touch"? Is it no longer considered "delivering the spell" but .... "Using a leftover effect from a spell that is no longer functioning"?
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It's known that you can get more than 2 uses of chill touch in a round.
Then it sounds like we have a case for touch-stacking.
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So, given James' ruling, how is this supposed to work now?
Is a granted touch attack still eligible for Spellstrike if it came from a spell cast by a magus, from the magus spell list, with a range of "touch"? Is it no longer considered "delivering the spell" but .... "Using a leftover effect from a spell that is no longer functioning"?
I am allowed to do a small dance of victory? :-)
(small because, even if I agree with JJ I fell that Chill touch would benefit from a complete rewording of the spell and that your positions had a reasonable basis)The problem spell isn't chill touch alone but the spells that share that wording too. There is at least one that is, to me, a clear derivative of Chill Touch (the name elude me right now, it do cold damage), sharing the same mechanic.
So we either need a clear mechanic for offensive spell with number multiple touches or we need to change them to round/level spells.
Weren't you just basically saying a few hours ago that James' statements weren't really binding?
At least for me it depends on where he writes something. In his ask james thread he is stating his opinion and said so himself. So it is not binding. If he writes something as an official statement it is binding.
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Weren't you just basically saying a few hours ago that James' statements weren't really binding?
Cheapy, don't try cheap debate tricks.
The piece within the brackets should make clear that I haven't taken James post as a FAQ and don't think it is the last word about Chill touch. James statements aren't binding (unless he is speaking ex cathedra, something that generally non do in that thread unless he is speaking about Golarion) but his is the opinion of a knowledgeable GM that has worked on the CRB and play and speak regularly with the rule developers. His post is "simply" a strong support to my position.Chill touch has a bad description and need a rewording, regardless of what is the official interpretation.