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I am gaming in a group with characters level 4 and below. I am playing a Summoner and recently got the spell Create Pit. I love it. However I have been thinking what this pit needs is a lid. A rather heavy lid. One in which when the pit goes away it would squish what ever was inside. That led me on a search. Most things I could cap the pit with were either too expensive or could not be cast by our band of rather new characters until I found what I think just might suffice. First I get 50 foot of rope. Then I would need a wooden stake. I would stake the rope on the opposite side of the pit. Here is the kicker in the middle of the rope I would tie the wonderful cube that is the folding boat. While holding the rope I would say the word of command twice. The reason for the rope is so the 10 food boat does not fall in the pit before it grows to be a 24 foot boat on the second command word. TA DA instant cover for the pit. Pit ends and squish monster goo.
What do you think?
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I am gaming in a group with characters level 4 and below. I am playing a Summoner and recently got the spell Create Pit. I love it. However I have been thinking what this pit needs is a lid. A rather heavy lid. One in which when the pit goes away it would squish what ever was inside. That led me on a search. Most things I could cap the pit with were either too expensive or could not be cast by our band of rather new characters until I found what I think just might suffice. First I get 50 foot of rope. Then I would need a wooden stake. I would stake the rope on the opposite side of the pit. Here is the kicker in the middle of the rope I would tie the wonderful cube that is the folding boat. While holding the rope I would say the word of command twice. The reason for the rope is so the 10 food boat does not fall in the pit before it grows to be a 24 foot boat on the second command word. TA DA instant cover for the pit. Pit ends and squish monster goo.
What do you think?
I certainly wouldn't allow it as a GM.
The pit spells really don't need to be made more powerful. At least as importantly, I haven't got time at the table to read what I'd need to read to adjudicate something like this so I'd just say no since it seems quite cheesy.
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I am starting to become disheartened. I want to do stuff that makes the rest of the players go wow I cant believe he just did that that was AWESOME. Yet more and more when I do that I am not allowed to do it. So this game is just I roll dice you roll dice and we randomly decide what happens. I thought this was supposed to be a game to use imagination.
You still can use your imagination.
Sometimes I want to stab an orc in his heart in a really cool way, which would instantly kill him no matter what. But the rules are there for a reason, and sometimes they have to limit what you can do.
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Thanks Caderyn thats the kind of discussion I was looking for. I had wondered about the weight myself. I wonder if my fellow players got in the boat if it would be enough. I had missed that the boat was only 8 feet wide. I had read someone used a force field to cover the pit. But I cannot come up with anything like that for low level characters. Perhaps 2 boats and have a cleric turn himself to stone and sit in the boat. The problem with that is we only have 1 cleric. Hmm this requires more thought. Hmm perhaps some type of razor wire across the top.
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So if I come up with something clever to kill a monster it is not legal in PFS? I thought if it was legal the DM had to allow it.
If you come up with something clever that I can adjudicate quickly it very much might work. Or it might not. Depends on what it is you come up with that you think is clever :-).
But where I GM we are always under time pressure. I am NOT going to take 5 to 10 minutes out to adjudicate something like this. And that is what this is going to take. I have to look up the boat, look up the pit, look up how extradimensional spaces work, etc.
And this particular idea strikes me as overpowered more than clever. No, thats not fair. It actually is clever. But its clever in a way that feels abusive. The bad guys are in a pit and helpless for several rounds. Not satisfied with that you also want to instakill them. That isn't fun for the other players or for the GM. Heck, it probably is only fun to you once or twice. When you want to instakill an encounter I'm not going to make things easy for you.
Sorry that I'm not giving you the answer thst you want. But wouldn't you prefer to be told this in advance rather than to find out at the table :-)
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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One in which when the pit goes away it would squish what ever was inside.
TA DA instant cover for the pit. Pit ends and squish monster goo.
What do you think?
I don't think it would work. Per the last sentence of the Create Pit spell, "When the duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round."
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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One in which when the pit goes away it would squish what ever was inside.I don't think it would work. Per the last sentence of the Create Pit spell, "When the duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round."TA DA instant cover for the pit. Pit ends and squish monster goo.
What do you think?
Well, what he's saying is that they would run into the ship as the ground reached surface level, much like that elevator scene in the first Mission: Impossible movie.
That being said, this sort of assumes that the boat's weight increases after unfolding. I don't know that this is the case. Being hit by a 24 foot long but 4 pound object isn't going to do much damage. If it DOES increase after unfolding, then you risk breaking the rope at the first unfold level.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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There also nothing saying the creature can't try to sever the rope or destroy the boat on the way out.
Also, how does the rope stay attached to the boat when it transforms? Is it tied to the bow and stern, port and starboard, randomly determined areas? It's an interesting idea but don't think it would work the way as described.
Alternatively, you could come from the angle that since it's a conjuration spell, it needs to abide by the rules that things your spell moves must end in an open area on a surface capable of supporting it.
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I would allow this at my table. It would likely not work.
1. You create Pit
2. You tie rope
3. You hang boat
4. You speak command word. Boat unfolds into small boat.
5. You speak command word again but due to the weight of the boat it has dipped below the lip of the create pit spell and fails to unfold further.
Alternatively you could tie it so the bow of the ship is pointing down, in which case when you try to unfold it it would get stuck and fail to unfold.
With the shelter, you are planning on putting it on top of the pit I assume. Very well, the pit spell ends, the creature opens the front door and walks out.
They are both clever ideas, but that doesn't stop a Gm from being clever in wrecking them.
If you REALLY want to do something to an enemy you have already incapacitated in a create pit you can always throw down oil and some fire, large rocks, or a ton of other things.
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Or Rock to Mud around the edges of the pit so it quickly fills with mud.If you REALLY want to do something to an enemy you have already incapacitated in a create pit you can always throw down oil and some fire, large rocks, or a ton of other things.
Because the pit is magic wouldn't the rocks also be considered magic and so out of bounds of the Rock to mud spell?
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Because the pit is magic wouldn't the rocks also be considered magic and so out of bounds of the Rock to mud spell?Or Rock to Mud around the edges of the pit so it quickly fills with mud.If you REALLY want to do something to an enemy you have already incapacitated in a create pit you can always throw down oil and some fire, large rocks, or a ton of other things.
That's why I mentioned around the edge of the pit. I was referring to the ground around the top edge of the pit. The mud has to go somewhere.
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That's why I mentioned around the edge of the pit. I was referring to the ground around the top edge of the pit. The mud has to go somewhere.Because the pit is magic wouldn't the rocks also be considered magic and so out of bounds of the Rock to mud spell?Or Rock to Mud around the edges of the pit so it quickly fills with mud.If you REALLY want to do something to an enemy you have already incapacitated in a create pit you can always throw down oil and some fire, large rocks, or a ton of other things.
Ah, gotcha. Sometimes me brain don't work.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don't think a wall of 4stone would work, as it must merge with surrounding stone. Unless I am missing something this should work.
Well, there would have to be stone around, yes. But if you cast create pit on, say, a dungeon floor then you could certainly use wall of stone to cover the top of the pit, and the wall would be fused with the dungeon floor along every edge.
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You know. Once the creature is buried in the mud, they could always cast Mud to Stone on the mud and trap the creature inside a 10x10xZZ chunk of stone.
As a note, I've done this in a home game.
Lvl 9 Druid cast Rock to Mud on the ground in front of the BBEG's construct thing (BBEG long dead, construct was a guardian). From there, I cast Mud to Rock/Stone and trapped it within. Afterwards I used Speak to Plants to tell them to keep their roots away from the stone and keep the baddie imprisoned. Then we created a little shelter thing around it and put a warning sign up: Here Lies Can't-Remember-The-Monster's-Name. DO NOT RELEASE.
If they release it, that's their own damn fault.
Create pit, wall of iron, push it into the pit. The mechanic is already in place. Would think it would be 10d6, no save, no room to avoid.
I don't think a wall of 4stone would work, as it must merge with surrounding stone. Unless I am missing something this should work.
I think the one thing you're missing is that the OP noted he's in a low-level group ("characters level 4 and below"), and Wall of Iron is a level 6 spell. :-)
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Here's how I'd look at it.
Assume for a moment you could place something over the pit that is heavy enough that it wouldn't just get pushed to the side or easily sit on top of without hurting those inside the pit once it goes away.
Additionally, since the pit rises over the course of a round, it would potentially do damage like falling damage.
So if it were 60 feet deep, you'd get 60 feet of falling damage. If it were 120 feet deep, you'd get 120 feet of falling damage.
Falling damage caps out at 200 feet or 20d6.
Additionally, since this essentially works like a trap, lets look at traps.
A CR 15 crushing stone trap has a +16 to hit and then does 16d6 damage if it hits.
As for insta-kill, you are talking about doing at 4th level, more than a CR15 trap.
I think that's a bit beyond the scope of creativity, don't you?
As for Jiggy's wall of stone I would not allow it to be an insta kill. However, they would take the falling damage based on how deep the pit was, and then would probably take crushing damage based on the cave-in or avalanche rules.
As for an object that can be easily moved, depending on how movable the object was (300 lb boat is more movable than a 2,000 lb piece of solid iron), they would potentially mitigate 10 feet of falling damage or make it non-lethal. The covering object would also take damage as per dropping an object on someone rules.
Now, here's the real question...
If you are being carried off by a Roc, and the Roc dies, and your feather fall ring triggers, but you have 15,000 lbs of Roc falling on you, and your buddy is standing below on the surface of a lake with water walking... how do you determine how much damage the feather fall guy takes, the water walking guy, and then how deeply would all of them sink?
Yes, this did come up in a home game of Kingmaker once.
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Now, here's the real question...
If you are being carried off by a Roc, and the Roc dies, and your feather fall ring triggers, but you have 15,000 lbs of Roc falling on you, and your buddy is standing below on the surface of a lake with water walking... how do you determine how much damage the feather fall guy takes, the water walking guy, and then how deeply would all of them sink?
Yes, this did come up in a home game of Kingmaker once.
Rocs fall, everyone dies.
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Rocs fall, everyone dies.Now, here's the real question...
If you are being carried off by a Roc, and the Roc dies, and your feather fall ring triggers, but you have 15,000 lbs of Roc falling on you, and your buddy is standing below on the surface of a lake with water walking... how do you determine how much damage the feather fall guy takes, the water walking guy, and then how deeply would all of them sink?
Yes, this did come up in a home game of Kingmaker once.
Yeah, that's pretty much what happened. Except not everyone died. They had enough hit points left to live, although one was unconscious and in the process of drowning after the Roc fell.
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I am gaming in a group with characters level 4 and below. I am playing a Summoner and recently got the spell Create Pit. I love it. However I have been thinking what this pit needs is a lid. A rather heavy lid. One in which when the pit goes away it would squish what ever was inside. That led me on a search. Most things I could cap the pit with were either too expensive or could not be cast by our band of rather new characters until I found what I think just might suffice. First I get 50 foot of rope. Then I would need a wooden stake. I would stake the rope on the opposite side of the pit. Here is the kicker in the middle of the rope I would tie the wonderful cube that is the folding boat. While holding the rope I would say the word of command twice. The reason for the rope is so the 10 food boat does not fall in the pit before it grows to be a 24 foot boat on the second command word. TA DA instant cover for the pit. Pit ends and squish monster goo.
What do you think?
I certainly wouldn't allow it as a GM.
The pit spells really don't need to be made more powerful. At least as importantly, I haven't got time at the table to read what I'd need to read to adjudicate something like this so I'd just say no since it seems quite cheesy.
I understand your desire to help keep everyone on task and not take needless time when you are under a time crunch.
But for whatever its worth, looking up how to adjudicate obscure things like this, is a great way to really learn the rules that you seldom use.
Our wizard likes to follow up his pit spells with aqueous orb...Or a couple lightening balls or a flaming sphere! Nasty!
How about just repetitive create waters?
I would think that summon swarm (which the OP, who is playing a summoner, might well have) would be a particularly amusing* thing to drop on the residents of the pit.
*-amusing for the summoner, anyway.
Local players have been toying with the idea of the Moonlight Bridge over the pit. Does the creature(s) returning to the surface count as an attack against the bridge? Because if it does, that seemed to be the way to use Create Pit as a Roach Motel.
I didn't allow it (almost entirely because the creature in the pit was going to die the next round from ongoing alchemist fire without any other actions) at the time. But I didn't have time to formulate whether it should or should not have the desired effect. Or whether the creatures just get raised up to be standing on the bridge (which makes as much sense to me as being forced up against the horizontal wall of force effect.
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As for the real question:
I would allow a reflex saving throw to avoid being crushed by the Roc's body, i.e. pushing yourself away from the Roc as you fell, falling into water is already outlined, the guy walking on water would also get a reflex save to avoid the Roc, I would apply damage from the Roc's body as falling damage from the given height using the yielding surface variation. If hit or could not push free the target would sink to a third the depth of the fall (based on the requirement that water must be at least 1/3 the depth of the fall, this could have some leeway), along with the Roc's corpse. Once submerged, swim checks to get free of the Roc's corpse and then to get to the surface. The Rocs corpse would continue to sink, draggin down anyone that fails the swim checks to get free of the corpse(I am unsure of the sink rate atm). Depending on the distance fallen there could be multiple reflex saves to push free of the falling corpse as there could be multiple saves fro the guy water walking depending on the exact situation. You could also allow an acrobatics check for the person falling to turn it into a dive and use that variation for the damage.
Whoops, forgot about the feather fall ring, if the reflex save to clear themselves from the falling Roc was made, I'd assume the fether fall would function normally.Kamakazi Roc, I like it!
Pretty much how a ruled it. Except for the guy with water walking. That spell treated the surface like a hard surface for the damage that he took.
I was nice and let the feather fall to turn 10 feet of falling into non-lethal. But the Roc falling on top of him knocked him unconscious and he started to drown.
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I normally hate posting about "read as intended" but we've had a lot of discussions about this very subject locally. Everything from walls of stone to beads of force to huge creatures have been suggested as ways of "plugging the hole." Quite frankly it comes down to "it's too powerful."
The first "save or (instantly) die" spell is probably phantasmal killer at spell level 4, and that gives two saves. If all you have to do is cast create pit and drop a couple of big sheets of plywood over it (exaggerating), it's well above the power curve.
BTW, flagged this for movement to the rules forum.