I have in mind a few tactics to be used in combat by melee characters against ranged and casters.
I intend to use them both as a player and as a GM.
Im looking for opinions on these tactics.
tell me what you think in regards to legality, abuse, logic flaws, would it offend you as a player or GM etc.
1) step up: very simple it basically lets you counter the 5 foot step and cast/shoot but it takes a feat and after te first use the archer caster will simply move 10 feet instead.
2) ready action to follow the target: similar to step up but instead of using a feat you simply ready an action. so I get in melee range of the target and ready an action to follow the targets movement if the target moves any distance 5 to 30 feet you can follow and make an attack of opportunity if they try to cast or shoot within that distance. (if they move more than that they probably cant cast or shoot.
3) disarm/sunderI think disarm or sunder on the archers bow is the best couner to the archer. sure he can pick up the bow and shoot but doing so is either going to give me 2 AoO or cause him to waste the turn (and I can always disarm/sunder again) the bad thing is many players are personally offended by this and as a player the rest of the group may take offense to me sundering loot.
4) step up + ready action charge this one is a bit complicated. i take the step up feat. then I close to melee with a target. I ready action to charge when the target tries to cast. if the target casts without moving i may get an AoO, if the target takes a 5 foot step i get to step up and AoO if they try to cast. if the target moves more than 5 feet I charge when they try to cast. seems to cover the bases but i am not sure if it works by rules and logic... for example can I charge when the opponent moves only 10 feet? also can I move into melee then ready a charge?... can I ready a charge when the person is currently not a legal charge target?
5) Grapple grappling casters and archers is fun because they dont get a defensive AoO... but it seems to fall into the disarm/sunder realm. I once used grapple repeatedly on the DMs monster and the DM had a fit over it.
6) DO NOT close to melee, ready a charge this is a variant on step up + ready action. basically I close to 15 feet and ready an action to charge if the caster tries to cast. its a means of countering both 5 foot step AND defensive casting as defensive casting only stops AoO not readied actions.
what are your opinions on the tactics? once again i am looking for any opinions or advice regarding legality, viability and general fun factor. if you have any tactics that I have not though of I would love to hear them.
1. Step up requires that you are already adjacent. If my ranged attacker or spellcaster is letting you get that close regularly, then I don't think there's actually a problem here that needs to be solved.
2. The problem with readying an action is that there is no clear definition of what level of precision you need to use to describe your reaction to the action itself. This can lead to arguments about whether the ready trigger was actually set off. This is probably superior to "step up" though because it can be used even if you aren't adjacent.
3. Disarm/sunder is one of the most buzz-killing tools at a GM's disposal. It can be effective, but again you have to get very close. If I'm a ranged or spellcasting character and I'm letting you get that close, then I'm not really a ranged or spellcasting character. I'm a character trying to cast spells or use a ranged weapon in melee. Which means you're probably gonna win anyway.
4. Step up + ready action charge just sounds too complicated and situational to me.
5. Grapple, if you have the stats and build for it, and can get close enough, this is one of the best ways to deal with casters. Again though, why am I letting you get close enough to grapple me?
6. Same as above, pretty much all of your tactics here require being in move/attack range already, so I'm not sure what the issue is you are trying to solve. If you are getting close enough to ranged or spellcasting characters to use any of these tactics, I think you've pretty much already won the encounter.
The real trick is dealing with ranged or spellcasters that are well beyond your move/attack range. That's when you are in trouble.
Im trying to solve two issues.
as a GM I am trying to convince players to use better tactics and diversity. as it is many players ignore being in contact with melee because they can eliminate any penalty of being in melee with the 5 foot step. they also hyper focus archers never bother to pull out a melee weapon, members of the group rarely bother to defend the caster. these tactics force greater diversity as players have to then counter the counters.
as a Player I am trying to counter high penalties to letting the range focused or spell focused baddie to make use of his full abilities.
a bow focused baddy may do more damage with the bow than I do with the sword and have a greater range in which to do so... thus just closing in and full attacking MAY not save my rear or may put others in the group in jeopardy. same with the caster. if he survives my attack and can cast a spell that negates me in some way thats bad...
basically I want to get a benefit to getting into melee with the caster/archer other than... i get to hit him.
OK, so what you seem to be after is how do you effectively melee with ranged or casting characters who use five foot steps to avoid attacks of opportunity.
One option is reach, either by growing your character or by using reach weapons. Enlarging a melee character is going to give you several benefits that will be useful in this situation.
You can also use fog or other things that give ranged attacks a miss chance while not affecting attacks from an adjacent square.
Make the terrain difficult so that the five foot step can't be taken. (Or is that a 4e thing? Can you take a five foot step in difficult terrain in PF? I forget)
Root your opponent so they can't move.
If you are dealing with ranged attackers, cast "protection from arrows" to make their bows/crossbows completely useless.
For spellcasters, cast silence on yourself. Use wands or scrolls if you need to.
If you are dealing with ranged attackers, cast "protection from arrows" to make their bows/crossbows completely useless.
For spellcasters, cast silence on yourself. Use wands or scrolls if you need to.
I like that... i had not thought of protect from arrows or silence.
i would not use that on players too often but its something i can put on my character to get the trick done.
Dotting.
I dont want to take away the ability to take a 5 foot step. I just want to develop tactics to counter it.
Be mounted. Have a reach weapon. Move up to the caster in one turn. caster gets pummeled if casting spell or moving.
Anything that entangles a caster (such as tanglefoot) is nice too.
Reach Weapons + Spiked Armor + Flanking to limit withdrawal tactics
Basically force them to choose between withdrawing and getting hammered by reach polearm attacks or risk spiked armor/grappling in close combat.
Basically the idea is to have every possible space to 5' step be covered by at least one reach weapon.
Unfortunately other than the horsechopper there isn't a good reach + trip weapon because tripping light skirmishers can ruin their day.
Caltrops are also a good solution to slow down mobile skirmishers. Magic Walls are also a good strategy. If you can bring up a wall of ice behind the archer or wizard they are often going to be pinned in by the melee combatant.
at the bottom of charge it says
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
most people interpret that to mean during the suprise round or as part of a readied action.
THIS JUST IN
WOW... I just read readied action and I am not sure if this rule has changed but I never knew it worked this way and it changes everything.
Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
[b]You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.[b]
so this changes a lot.
basically it means that as long as I am in contact with the caster/archer and ready an action to attack when he tries to cast or shoot the bow I will get an attack off.
if he just tries to cast, even defensively I get to swing do to my readied action
if he tries to 5 foot step and cast I get to swing because my readied action allows me to 5 foot step as part of my readied action.
if he tries to move more than 5 feet and cast i get an AoO for him makeing more than a 5 foot step.
so the only way he can avoid my attack is by use of a withdraw.
that solves a lot of problems but I never understood the rule that way I wonder if its a 3.5 to pathfinder change or a recent clarification.
I now see 2 problems that i have to look up.
1) suppose I am standing next to an archer and ready an action to swing at him when he shoots his bow.
he takes a step back and shoots
my ready action takes effect and I step forward and attack.
then he continues his shot... do I then get my AoO for him making a ranged attack while in my threat?
2) in setting this up you have to close with your opponent.
If you make a move action to get next to the enemy, then ready an action to swing if they do X. when they step back and swing you cant take the 5 foot step to follow, the next round you have to 5 foot step to get close to them and again you cant 5 foot step to follow. that part seems a bit debilitating.