Dude...RPG Rule # 75, Section 3, Subsection 14, Article 1, Paragraph 19, Point 6: There must ALWAYS be a "wild" race/class that hails from the fridged (sp) northlands...or hot, jungley southlands, etc.
I could hug you... But it is Article 2, Paragraph 9, Point 1.
Anyone who gets this reference will get respect.
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Conan's a Barbarian, but he's not ALL Barbarians.
He fights like a man possessed, which is the epitome of the Rage ability. It doesn't necessarily have to be RAWR I'M A MINDLESS KILLING MACHINE, and the grinning maniac who cleaves through his enemies is pretty much channeling the same strength as the quiet guy whose martial concentration borders on the supernatural.
Dude...RPG Rule # 75, Section 3, Subsection 14, Article 1, Paragraph 19, Point 6: There must ALWAYS be a "wild" race/class that hails from the fridged (sp) northlands...or hot, jungley southlands, etc.I could hug you... But it is Article 2, Paragraph 9, Point 1.
Anyone who gets this reference will get respect.
I feel that we are super nerds among lesser nerds... -.-
really?
how many players (new ones in particular) have ever built barbarians that were NOT high str, low int, uncivilized madmen in one way or another?
I mean its in the core manual, sure it CAN be worked around... just like a class called thief can be worked around... but Rogue is more open, does not require a work around and fits all of the options of the class more than thief does.
just because its not an issue that breaks the game does not mean that its not an issue that can be examined.
Me. Actually I built 2 that don’t fit the stereotype you mentioned. One had spellcraft as a class skill. Another is decent with diplomacy, and is not bad at being the party face.
I also had a new player build a very intelligent barbarian. No I did not guide him with the build.
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Conan's a Barbarian, but he's not ALL Barbarians.
He fights like a man possessed, which is the epitome of the Rage ability. It doesn't necessarily have to be RAWR I'M A MINDLESS KILLING MACHINE, and the grinning maniac who cleaves through his enemies is pretty much channeling the same strength as the quiet guy whose martial concentration borders on the supernatural.
It's interesting to hear others' interpretations of what the PF/DND barbarian rules could mean. Grinning maniac and quiet concentration, both great illustrations.
Not sure where this whole thread is going, I guess my only point was that Barbarians are not Ragers, but more combat tricksters usually with greater than normal strength and constitution due to their backgrounds.
And, as an avid Conan reader/original movie fan, he never raged. And also, I guess I'm saying a drawback to raging to get +4/+4 STR/CON is that you go berserk, and once you rage, you do nothing but kill the nearest target until you're subdued/exhausted/nobody withing 30' is left alive.
Now imagine if you could stack, Barbarian Berserker, with better base STR/CON, and then bonus STR/CON.
The thing is, Barbarians don't lose control when they rage (unless they take the Wild Rager archetype). They just get stronger and tougher, throwing defense to the wind. A sort of battle trance that you can see in plenty of movies and stories. When the hero is in a life or death situation, and suddenly he has a burst of strength, that's Rage (Ex).
Also, Urban Barbarian's Controlled Rage is an even more abstracted Rage, as you can even sneak around or use magical items while using it.
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I feel that we are super nerds among lesser nerds... -.-Dude...RPG Rule # 75, Section 3, Subsection 14, Article 1, Paragraph 19, Point 6: There must ALWAYS be a "wild" race/class that hails from the fridged (sp) northlands...or hot, jungley southlands, etc.I could hug you... But it is Article 2, Paragraph 9, Point 1.
Anyone who gets this reference will get respect.
I have a feeling we are among the Kings/Queens of the Nerds/Geeks.
I have a Barbarian whose first Rage Power was Lesser Spirit Totem. I mocked it up as a Super Sayain Aura. The entire Party and I made up our own Ginyu Style Stance. We got RPing XP for doing it (1/Game Night).
On-Topic: Who says a Barbarian has to make a Will save to leave Rage?
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hmm... so what would my idea of Barbarian be in game terms? I mean, somebody from the wilds with boosted STR and CON, trickiness, and survival skills?
and also, maybe Raging can instead be a feat tree? Plus perhaps wondrous items that create an adrenaline rush effect? Although I still think Berserkers as wild ragers have a place/fighter archetype in the game.
Fighter/Rogue, Ranger or some other type of martial class.
Barbarians are just fine as they are, making Rage a feat tree would be fixing a problem that isn't broken in the first place.
Personally, I just think we need to let sleeping dogs lie.
EDIT: Reflavor your rage. Answer these questions: Why do you rage? and What caused you to rage for the first time? Think Magneto in X-Men Frist Class...
The reason why Barbarians are considered the best Melee is because of Pounce.
Though a Mobile Fighter is just as Powerful.
hmm... so what would my idea of Barbarian be in game terms? I mean, somebody from the wilds with boosted STR and CON, trickiness, and survival skills?
and my question to you is this.
why do you think the class is someone from the wilds? because the name barbarian and the class description say so.
but what the class REALLY is from a mechanical standpoint is a non-magic using combat class with rage powers.
Aren't most Rage Powers (Su) abilities?
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Aren't most Rage Powers (Su) abilities?
Things like Superstition and Improved Damage Reduction are (Ex), where it's just I AM RAGING SO HARD THAT I DISBELIEVE IN YOUR SPELLS/YOUR ATTACKS DON'T HURT AS MUCH. Things that are literally the Barbarian getting so mad that he can grow claws, break magic and junk are (Su).
The Free Dictionary: Barbarian 2/3 definitions would disagree.
@Seranov: I think someone counted them and it is like 2-4 more (Su) abilities than (Ex). Though that might have been Pre-Ultimate Combat.
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hmm... so what would my idea of Barbarian be in game terms? I mean, somebody from the wilds with boosted STR and CON, trickiness, and survival skills?and my question to you is this.
why do you think the class is someone from the wilds? because the name barbarian and the class description say so.
but what the class REALLY is from a mechanical standpoint is a non-magic using combat class with rage powers.
Well, if you compare the class skills with those of the Fighter, the differences are enlightening :
Loses :
- Kn : Dungeoneering
- Kn : Engineering
- Profession
So, our Raging boy is not at home within buildings/sewers/dungeons and he is not good at working for a living. In fact he is the only class in the CRB who does not get Profession as a class skill.
Gains :
- Acrobatics
- Kn : Nature
- Perception
He is good in the outdoor (in the CRB, apart from the Know-it-all Bard and Wizard, only the Ranger and the Druid get Kn : Nature as a class skill).
Perception is also a staple for the outdoory-types.
But then it is also a staple for the lightly armored semi-warrior types of Bard, Monk and Rogue.
Interestingly, Acrobatics is also a class skill for those classes and only for them (and the Barbarian).
Compared to these 3 classes (Bard, Monk, Rogue), the skills they have in common and that the Barbarian lacks are :
- Escape Artist
- Perform
- Profession
- Sense Motive
- Stealth
I would not hire him for a burglary, nor as a street performer.
And the skills the Barbarian has and that most of them lack are :
- Handle Animal
- Kn : Nature (with the exception of the Know-it-all Bard)
- Ride (only the Monk gets it too)
- Survival
Which are all skills dealing with the outdoors and animals.
To sum it up, his class skills depict the Barbarian as a lightly armored warrior more at ease in the outdoor than in urban life and lacking in stealth.
Pretty close to the savage warrior of the wilds actually.
... jeff. My whole point is that the name "barbarian" tends to pidgeon hole players into a cirtain limited way of thinking about the class.
some people can obviously think outside the box but the average person thinks just like you...
I think it's somebody from the wilds because that's what any real world dictionary of barbarian would indicate.
the whole point behind this thread is the idea that the class may be better served by a name that is not so limiting... in other words calling it rager or berzerker gives you more imaginative options that barbarian.
(again recognizing that nothing is physically stopping you from imagining your character how ever you like and acknowlaging that some people do this)
@blue_the_wolf: You mean Berserker? Berzerker isn't something someone wanted to be called...
On-Topic:
How about calling them Surgers?
Conan's a Barbarian, but he's not ALL Barbarians.
He fights like a man possessed, which is the epitome of the Rage ability. It doesn't necessarily have to be RAWR I'M A MINDLESS KILLING MACHINE, and the grinning maniac who cleaves through his enemies is pretty much channeling the same strength as the quiet guy whose martial concentration borders on the supernatural.
On that note i think we shouldn't rename the class, but the rage ability.
On that note i think we shouldn't rename the class, but the rage ability.Conan's a Barbarian, but he's not ALL Barbarians.
He fights like a man possessed, which is the epitome of the Rage ability. It doesn't necessarily have to be RAWR I'M A MINDLESS KILLING MACHINE, and the grinning maniac who cleaves through his enemies is pretty much channeling the same strength as the quiet guy whose martial concentration borders on the supernatural.
Something like Surge(s) of Power or Power Surge(s)? Though that might cause problems with a MMORPG... If it is even still around...
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I feel "surger" or "surges" sound a bit... psionic, or similar. I'm not at all a fan of it.
But I think it's faulty to say that there is no issue with naming the class Barbarian when there are a lot of archetypes (common meaning, not mechanical archetype) it fits that are not really barbarians, and while at the same time, a lot of characters that are barbarians wouldn't be well described with the barbarian class, or at least not easily (like conan).
The german translation of the ability would translate back to somehting like "combat rush", i think that's much closer.
If flavor, like the name of a class, is irrelevant, why not remove it? I mean, you claim he's exaggerating and that you've never argued that flavor should be removed - true, but you're arguing that it is irrelevant because we can just make up our own, and then I wonder - why aren't you arguing it could as well be removed completely?
I also like how you completely ignored my previous reply to you.
For the statement "it is pointless to change the name of a class" to be true, in this discussion, the statement "what the name of a class is is pointless/irrelevant" has to be true. Since the name of a class is part of the flavor, the point thus is that (at least certain parts of) the flavor of the game is irrelevant.
Now when I say game I don't mean in a campaign or such, but the game such as the rulebooks and alike.
If flavor is not pointless, then the name is not pointless as it's flavor, and then changing the name is not pointless.
I make a lot of characters that go far outside their class archetype, but that you can ignore flavor and just use the mechanics isn't a good argument for the flavor to be irrelevant.
It's like a recipe. Say I have a recipe for meatsauce that looks like this:
Meatsauce
This is a recipe for a wonderful meatsauce with thyme and black pepper.
X ground beef
Y tomatoes
Z onions
Spices
Now, I could say that it's irrelevant what the name of the recipe is, because I can change what spices I use, ignoring the description, and make it into something else. The recipe is just a framework for the food and I can use it to make differently flavored meals. And I can call the sauce "beefsauce", or "tomato sauce", or "apple salad", or "farfugnin" and that makes no difference for me as I know the recipe and what I can use it for.
However, if I'm writing a cookbook for others to read - others who aren't used to cooking with that recipe - naming it apple salad or farfugnin will cause a lot of confusion. Yes, they can read the ingredients list and after a while figure out what they can do with the recipe, but if they want to make something meaty for their pasta and go through the index and see "apple salad" or "farfugnin" they'll skip to the next post without even looking into it further - and if they want to make an apple salad and find a recipe that has ground beef as a component, they'll also get confused and wonder "WTF is this cookbook?"
Now, this is a pretty extreme example, but the basic principle is the same. A class is much like a recipe that can be flavored into a lot of different things, but that in no way make the descriptions and names of it irrelevant because not everyone has cooked the meal fifty times, or even read through the recipe. For those, a meatsauce named "apple salad" is as useless as a fighting guy that rages named "farfugnin".
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Just have to say, I think folk are worried about inexperienced RP'ers just a lil' overmuch. Some of the biggest "jumps" in player design at tables I have been at, were from new players.
Basically, If someone were to misunderstand the class by its name, or lack the creative leap to separate the class from its name, then it will happen with whatever name you give it. And would apply to every class and their features.
In my head, I always connect "witch" with one that has made a pact with Satan and given away their soul and will face eternal damnation. So, my upbringing rears itself and I have problems playing the class. However, I do not lay blame at the class name when the interpretation lays within myself.
Thief/rogue. The connotations their have always been slanted towards the noble thief (EX Remington Steele or Pink Panther) or in the case of rogue a swashbuckler or Robin Hood from the TV show. Despite the rules and the fluff, of first edition, I was surprised at the cartoon in the DMG "There is no honor among thieves". Never even thought to play them that way.
Some of these names have been around for over thirty years, and someone will always misinterpret them or feel funneled into a play style, or just not like them. But it will continue to be the same if changed.
I particularly hate "beserker".
But then again, I feel no reason to rename barbarian, nor rename monk, nor rename fighter. ( I chose those for examples because I see them mentioned the most)
Greg
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Why on earth are you all still arguing a moot point? Dude...it's gonna be called a barbarian no matter how much you scrap about it. I can have a barbarian that is a priest, a farmer, a shaman, or some some guy who's pissed off that his family was murdered and he bottled his anger inside. Come on guys. This thread is almost as bad as the Falling Paladin thread from a week or so ago in the Advice forum. Honestly, there are people here FIGHTING over something completely useless to fight over. So what the sterotype of a barb is 'I AM BARBARIAN! I SMASH!'. Don't limit yourself to that if you don't want to. If you WANT to play 'I AM BARBARIAN', go right ahead. Noone is going to fault you. If you wanna play a thoughtful, intellectual barbarian who prays to his spirit totem, go right ahead. BOTH ARE CORRECT! AHRRRRRRRRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!! SMASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *explodes*
I've been bored, man, and how else am I supposed to put off writing my papers?
*smashes Seranov* "RAWR!!!! WORDS STEAL SOUL! YOU NO WRITE!" XD I've vented...
I'm a shapechanged goblin... <.<
Surge(s) of Power or Power Surge(s).
These come from a Game where they are the main power of the Warrior Class's "Ravager" Package. Oddly, They have an ability called Combat Rush that increases their Surge Bonus at the cost of depleting its time quicker.
NOTE: This Games Packages are more Alternate Classes.
Also why do you think of Psionics?
@Luna_Silvertear: Goblin Druid(Dragon Shaman)?
Goblin Barbarian/Sorc/DD
Goblin Barbarian/Sorc/DD
Love it!
possible names for rage
"Adrenaline Surge"
"Blood Ecstacy"
"Combat Arousal"
possible names for rage
"Adrenaline Surge"
"Blood Ecstacy"
"Combat Arousal"
1. Kind of long and generic.
2. Sounds like a drug.
3. Oh my!
another name: Blood Lust.
Don't like blood lust as a name, it's sounds a bit... evil. It also excludes a lot of archetypal ragers, and feels weird when dealing with out-of-combat raging (which there are quite a lot of rage powers for).
e.g. "I use my rage to kick down the prison door" vs "I use my blood lust to kick down the prison door".
I know. That is the point. Rage can fulfill many different concepts. most other names can't.
Why is it I all of a sudden want to make the 7 Homunculus from Alchemist Knight...
possible names for rage
"Adrenaline Surge"
"Blood Ecstacy"
"Combat Arousal"
1. Kind of long and generic.
2. Sounds like a drug.
3. Oh my!
2 and 3 were stolen from Witchblade. where "Combat Arousal" led to a state of mind called "Blood Esctacy" and was a property of the titular weapon. it is more of a state of masochism than anything truly erotic.
this might have been mentioned before, but i think berserker is a very poor name for the class, the origins of the bersekrer is "bear skirt" for a warrior or viking origin that went into frenzied rages.
the origins of the barbarian was a name used by civilized ancient greeks/romans as a mocking jab at the language of non greeks because to them it sounded like "bar bar"
by that notion barbarians encompass more examples of non urban combatants where as berserkers is far more streamlined in my head to viking styled crazy warriors, and only viking styled crazy warriors.
i kind of imagine that berserkers never come down from their rage, i see them as completley feral, living away from the rest of the vikings and only unleashed for the initial charge.
and after the battle, chained to keep them away from the other vikings.
reaver might be a good alternative.
but thats the thing. they are not constant rage fueled killing machines, they use rage only as one of the few tools they can use to fight. they dont rage when they are exploring, other wise they would make for very poor party members.
zulu tribes fighting the british took drugs to fuel their rages, and other non civilized tribes had to work themselves into a similar frenzy, but bersekers were on constant overdrive.
again, i think barbarian fits much better then berserker.