
Nepherti |

I thought of putting something else in my paladins code, but I wonder peoples input.
I want there to be one type of "thievery" to not count against the law. it was inspired by the book of Ruth in the old testament, where the poor would not be punished for collecting the fallen grain, the gleanings, during harvest. Basically, everyone has the right to eat.
My paladin refuses to turn a thief in when he simply stole food to feed himself/family. Valuables stolen to make money to buy food are a completely different story, but stolen food when you are starving is not a crime to him.
Thoughts?

![]() |
It's under the chapter of tempering the lawful with mercy.
The Paladin's responsibility however does not end there. If a person is committing thievery to feed their family, the Paladin is obliged to make that thievery stop, by removing the need for it if possible. Such as by trying to find the person work or other honest means to earn bread for the table.

![]() |
and he does try to make the poor man honest. I am considering putting the spin of he finds the man who would punish the starving thief more at fault. Seeing that lack of compassion would motivate my paladin to act more than someone who stole a few rations.
Keep in mind that most farmers themselves are folks trying to feed a family as well... and they're not necessarily rich land barons either.

princeimrahil |

princeimrahil wrote:Average wages for a skilled laborer in Golarion are what... 1 sp? Any adventurer can pretty much solve problems of poverty with chump change.That's true, but as the saying goes "Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime."
Better yet, turn him into a hireling.
"Family's starving, eh? Well it just so happens I need someone to cook and mend my clothes on the road... oh, and there will be a lot of carrying things, too. Think you can manage it, Sancho?"

Nepherti |

ChaiGuy wrote:princeimrahil wrote:Average wages for a skilled laborer in Golarion are what... 1 sp? Any adventurer can pretty much solve problems of poverty with chump change.That's true, but as the saying goes "Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime."Better yet, turn him into a hireling.
"Family's starving, eh? Well it just so happens I need someone to cook and mend my clothes on the road... oh, and there will be a lot of carrying things, too. Think you can manage it, Sancho?"
come to think of it, that's probably how he got the family of serfs who work for him.

SlimGauge |

But most farmers can spare a few rations from their entire crop ;).
The thief doesn't know that. This coming winter might be mild, or it might be severe. The farmer needs enough stored to feed everyone AND have enough seed left over to plant.
One of the historic actions of desperation was to eat one's seed-corn. If you don't, you die of starvation over the winter, but if you do, you have no seed to plant in the spring.

Nepherti |

So you know exactly where I get this idea, I found this at jewishencyclopedia.com:
Gleaning the Fields
The remains of a crop after harvesting, which must be left for the poor. The Mosaic law enjoins: "And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and the stranger: I am the Lord your God" (Lev. xix. 9, 10). "When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow. When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shallbe for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow" (Deut. xxiv. 20, 21). These provisions belong to the agricultural poor-laws of the Bible, the transgression of which was punishable with stripes. In the Book of Ruth there is a description of the manner in which the fields were gleaned. The poor followed the reapers at their work, and gathered all the remains of the crop, both those that fell out of the hands of the reaper and those that escaped the sickle (Ruth ii. 2).
I picture my paladin being raised with the belief of leaving the gleanings. Not all cultures have this provision like his did.

![]() |

I'm reminded of a quote by some south American priest whose name escapes me:-
'When I give food to the poor they call me a saint!
When I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist!'
I'm also reminded of a time when I was creating a 2nd ed Elven paladin. Her backstory included that she'd spent her entire life in the all-Elven community until this first adventure. She had walked to the human town past fields full of grain. When a beggar said that he was hungry, she said, 'Well, eat something then!'
It simply didn't occur to her that there was a problem. There was loads of food around! How could he be hungry? Where she came from, everybody contributed and everybody ate. It took her a while to get her head around what the problem was, and when she realised, she lost some respect for humanity.
Hers in an individual story, of course, intended to highlight the fact that humans and elves are different races and I wanted to show that 'alienness' somehow in role-play. I'm not suggesting any universal truths, here.
As long as the player and DM are on the same page, make it work! You don't need to justify it to anyone else. There is absolutely no requirement for religion to make objective sense!
Imagine a world where the Tooth Fairy had an organised religion. It may very well be that modern dentistry would run counter to their religious tenets, saying that dentistry is the sole perview of the Tooth Fairy. That might be amusing to those outside the religion, but if it became the state religion then laws would be passed outlawing dentistry for any citizen, regardless of that person's religious beliefs!
Do you think that's crazy? In real life, blood transfusions are legal, but would they be if Jehovah's Witnesses were the state religion? Even today, in many Catholic countries it's illegal to have an abortion, whether you're a catholic or not.
So, have whatever religious dogma that you and your DM create, and role-play it. If those beliefs have strange consequences, then role-play those too! It's part of the fun! Your character can believe things your player doesn't, and vice versa. That's role-playing!

lemeres |

Well, while a paladin has to be Lawful Good, that law is typically more set about by his order. Playing a bit of Robin Hood against a tyrant that has raised the taxes to the point that peasants can't support themselves reliably might be within their purview.
But in a more realistic socio-economic situation...They might just not have enough food due to various changes in the local economy such as a new trade route opening up and taking traffic away from their own trade route. Or it was just not a good growing year. The 'tyrant' might just be in as tight a bind as them due to taxes that have to be paid to the king for a good cause, such as a war effort against raiders. Try to understand the local situation and play it by ear. While giving them gold might only be a temporary solution, it might be enough of a hold over to let them work on their own. Tell them to use it to buy their own seed corn, and to make their own money.

![]() |

So you know exactly where I get this idea, I found this at jewishencyclopedia.com:
Gleaning the FieldsThe remains of a crop after harvesting, which must be left for the poor. The Mosaic law enjoins: "And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and the stranger: I am the Lord your God" (Lev. xix. 9, 10). "When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow. When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shallbe for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow" (Deut. xxiv. 20, 21). These provisions belong to the agricultural poor-laws of the Bible, the transgression of which was punishable with stripes. In the Book of Ruth there is a description of the manner in which the fields were gleaned. The poor followed the reapers at their work, and gathered all the remains of the crop, both those that fell out of the hands of the reaper and those that escaped the sickle (Ruth ii. 2).
I picture my paladin being raised with the belief of leaving the gleanings. Not all cultures have this provision like his did.
Your religion telling you that charity is good (basically what it says here) is a very far cry from allowing the poor to steal to their stomach's content.
In the former, a Paladin doing charity is indeed both Good and Lawful. In the latter, he is encouraging Chaotic behaviour (which is a big No-No under the RAW code).
Your GM's Mileage May Vary of course.
Way I would do it : the Paladin stops the thief, spends money to feed the family for a week or two, forces the thief to make amends by working for free for the ones he stole from (or on community service) and then finds him a sustainable source of income.

lemeres |

Having both color are appropriate though. Red and green are great Christmas colors, and as we all know elves work for Santa.
*Cricket chirps* *tumble weed rolls by* *a vegetable stand recouped their losses on their rotten tomatoes.*
Anyway, for the topic, it also depends on whether there are any preexisting charities in the area as well. If even the most unfortunate are left to their own devices by society, it should not surprised if they seek less honorable avenues.

Nepherti |

Armand's instinct is to side with the hungry thief, for if he were not hungry, a basic need, this would not have happened.
Now, if the hungry thief were a repeat offender, or Armand saw that the thief will still steal even after being shown a means to feed himself honestly, then his compassion will waver.
By talking to the GM, I get scenarios of both put in the game.

Mysterious Stranger |

Any paladin should always help those in need. As a matter of fact failure to do so breaks the paladins code unless the aid is going to be used for evil or chaotic ends. While some may argue that allowing a thief to steal for any reason is chaotic I disagree. It really depends on why the person is stealing. For example if someone stole something from you and you take it back without them knowing it that would not be stealing.
If the thief is stealing anything else but food, or is stealing more than he needs to sell for a profit then that may be for chaotic means and not fall under the protection clause. Also anyone teaching his children to steal would also be for chaotic means.
Paladins are members of an organized religion dedicated to good. In most cases they will know where the nearest church is and should direct the "thief" to seek aid there. What I would do would be to give the person enough cash to take care of the immediate needs of his family and send them to the church.
Another cool thing would be to give the person enough money to start a business or get them through whatever tough period they are having, but require them to help a certain number of other people and to require that they pass on the obligation to others they help. And yes the idea was straight from the old Kung Fu T.V. show, but is still a neat idea.

![]() |

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:Where she came from, everybody contributed and everybody ate.You mean Elves are Red ? And here I thought that they were Green ;-)
Those elves were red(dish)! I was trying to create a culture with an alien feel to it, so that I could role-play playing a stranger in a strange land, and trying to come up with a society that was good aligned in contrast to a more neutral human village. It was simply one way to go.
As far as trying to live up to communist ideals in practical terms, there are large-scale problems which small-scale life can survive. A kibbutz can work while a huge state economy has practical limits which mean it fails in terms of survival of the fittest society.
I saw my little Elven culture more as an extended family. Do you charge your kids money to eat? What if they are ill and can't do chores? Do they go hungry until they can work again? What about school? Can they afford their own books? Transport? Clothes?
The qualities we admire in family life work because of family ties, love, altruism etc. The qualities we question in communism include lack of freedom, lack of reward for individual contribution which blunts motivation to achieve.
So we can admire commune-like behaviour on a scale as small as a family unit, while despising commune-like behaviour on the scale of a nation state. But as the scale drops from nation state and grows from family unit, where is the dividing line? At what exact population does living like this stop being admirable and start being destructive?
No, I don't know either!
I suspect mileage varies, not just on terms of the opinions of people who are reading this, but also in terms of the hypothetical society in question. I postulated that the elves in this society were more prone to be altruistic amongst their own kind, have more durable family ties as a consequence of low-birth rate/long life expectancy/limited population. They didn't have to deal with this way of life being imposed by a revolution or a damagogue; they evolved this behaviour as a society to survive over thousands of years against a harsh and changing world. I think it a reasonable speculation. It's not the only way it could have evolved. Not all the Elven societies I've envisioned over the years are like this. I created this idea as a background for a single character and I was pleased with the result. It had a positive effect on my role-playing experience by trying to get into that character's head; how would she respond to a beggar? How would she cope with a divided human community when it was her task to unite them against a common threat? Where she comes from, if there's a threat then every able-bodied elf reaches for a bow and does what is needed. Why do some in this human village need to be cajoled or bribed to do the same? Don't humans love their children, too?
Seeing a society from the outside in was rewarding, and I'm talking about the human society here. I was able to explore that because I had created a counterpoint society. Exactly what the details of that alien society were was not important in terms of just needing an alien viewpoint, but once I'd worked out those details in a coherent way then I could role-play a character from that particular alien society, so I could see the human society through the eyes of an alien.