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In the very long thread on the subject (which has no resolution) it was asked if anyone has done this in PFS and how gms would rule on the subject.
Please let's limit this to whether or not you allow it and if you have a strong reason why or why not please explain.
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Sticking strictly to the language in the CRB regarding unarmed strikes, I don't see anything that restricts unarmed strikes to hands. In fact, on page 182, under Standard Actions, Unarmed Strikes, it specifically refers to "punches, kicks, and head butts." If that is the case, then combining it with TWF should allow for an extra attack with whatever body part the character chooses (elbow, knee, foot, etc).
It begs the question, why is this such a contested question? Are we afraid of non-monks infringing on the monk's schtick? Is there some ability/feat combo that breaks the game if a character is allowed to combine TWF with unarmed strikes?
So far other than a lot of insistence that if its not one then we must have a defined number so we know exactly where a magic fang spell applies or whether or not elbows count as the same unarmed strike or a different one than the fist. No there are no true issues that would cause this to become some terrible uber method of fighting. I do think some of it might be from the stepping on monk toes.
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I think I found the thread the OP refers to HERE. First, let me say, I avoid the rules forum because of the arguments and general poor gamesmenship that exists there, especially when I see avatar names like "learntherules." While, I do not know if the owner intends it to be an insult, it sure reads like it to me. Second, sorry, but I'm not going to invest the time to read a 517 (atm) post thread about a rule that appears to me to be nothing more than a rules argument about the minutia of the language. In the end, it looks like another RAW vs. RAI fight.
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So far other than a lot of insistence that if its not one then we must have a defined number so we know exactly where a magic fang spell applies or whether or not elbows count as the same unarmed strike or a different one than the fist.
I guess I don't understand. Magic fang applies to a specific natural attack, so it stands to reason it would only apply to one unarmed strike location. So the caster would need to designate whether it was being applied to a hand, elbow, head, knee, etc. TWF implies that the "off-hand" attack occurs with a weapon other than the primary, so the spell should not apply to the bonus attacks granted by the feat. Again, I don't see where the issue lies?!?
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I would not allow TWF with Unarmed strikes at my table BECAUSE:
1:
I feel like it would break the attack economy of the game. Lvl 1 Monk with 20 Str, his feat is Two Weapon fighting and he uses Flurry of Blows. He now has 3 attacks at a +1 attack for a d6+5 damage. Take that up to level 6 and this same monk is just dirty due to sheer number of rolls. Flurry of Blows and TWF are the same thing. Flurry is for unarmed TWF are for weapons.
2:
It seems that TWF implies manufactured weapons. Mainly because of the word "Weapon" in the name of the feat.
PS:
This is my initial reaction, and I reserve the right to change my mind, but that's my gut reaction to the question.
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I would not allow TWF with Unarmed strikes at my table BECAUSE:
1:
I feel like it would break the attack economy of the game. Lvl 1 Monk with 20 Str, his feat is Two Weapon fighting and he uses Flurry of Blows. He now has 3 attacks at a +1 attack for a d6+5 damage. Take that up to level 6 and this same monk is just dirty due to sheer number of rolls. Flurry of Blows and TWF are the same thing. Flurry is for unarmed TWF are for weapons.2:
It seems that TWF implies manufactured weapons. Mainly because of the word "Weapon" in the name of the feat.PS:
This is my initial reaction, and I reserve the right to change my mind, but that's my gut reaction to the question.
Wow.
First of all, TWF and Flurry don't "stack", so you've manufactured a situation that doesn't exist and used it as a basis for disallowing something.
Second, unarmed strikes are treated as weapons in just about every single part of the rules that you find them mentioned in.
All you gain with TWF+UAS is that a fighter can act like a monk for the cost of extra feats.
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I would not allow TWF with Unarmed strikes at my table BECAUSE:
1:I feel like it would break the attack economy of the game. Lvl 1 Monk with 20 Str, his feat is Two Weapon fighting and he uses Flurry of Blows. He now has 3 attacks at a +1 attack for a d6+5 damage. Take that up to level 6 and this same monk is just dirty due to sheer number of rolls. Flurry of Blows and TWF are the same thing. Flurry is for unarmed TWF are for weapons.
Is it such a problem for a monk, who is arguably a weaker front-line warrior than others (paladin, fighter, ranger, etc) to gain one more attack while taking an ever bigger attack penalty? The balance for TWF is already built into the feat. Not to mention, the damage output of a monk lags behind other front-liners for quite some time.
Now, that being said, I think the intention of the rules is that TWF and FoB would not stack, but it does not seem to be clear by the text.
2: It seems that TWF implies manufactured weapons. Mainly because of the word "Weapon" in the name of the feat.
There are many feats, class abilities, etc. that use the word "weapon" but, still apply to unarmed strikes. Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse jump immediately to mind.
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I have a Monk that doesn't flurry. I usually two weapon fighting when full attacking. Sometimes it is with a double weapon, sometime it is with kicks. Sometimes it is with a kick and a weapon.
I have an amulet of mighty fists and use stunning fists, with my feet.
I haven't used magic fang before.
My weapon usually does 1d4. He is level seven and I have never seen a rules contradiction.
I am nearly certain that I am using this correctly. Unless there is a FaQ I am not sure about. I am fairly certain it is all legal.
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Its when you're trying to left foot right foot claw claw bite that's the problem.
Why is that a problem? You take the normal penalties for TWF with the two foot attacks, and then -5 for each of the natural attacks. Doesn't that follow the normal rules for adding natural attacks with "weapon" attacks?
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Its when you're trying to left foot right foot claw claw bite that's the problem.Why is that a problem? You take the normal penalties for TWF with the two foot attacks, and then -5 for each of the natural attacks. Doesn't that follow the normal rules for adding natural attacks with "weapon" attacks?
Not to mention you only get half your STR mod on each attack except one of the kicks.
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Its when you're trying to left foot /right foot /claw /claw /bite that's the problem.Why is that a problem?The character's vulnerability to someone popping the blue ballon he's tied around his waist.
You mean like by throwing a green shell at him?
Unarmed strike is one attack that uses multiple limbs. The limbs are individual weapons. It is just a strange rules exception that seem difficult to word correctly by RAW.
Yes I would allow TWF with unarmed strikes. I don't see a reason not to.
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I keep reading of people using magic fang on elbows and stuff.
Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. The spell does not change an unarmed strike's damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.
Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. The only type of unarmed strike enhanced by this spell is an attack with your fist.
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I keep reading of people using magic fang on elbows and stuff.
Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. The spell does not change an unarmed strike's damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. The only type of unarmed strike enhanced by this spell is an attack with your fist.
Gotta disagree.
Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing.
Unarmed strikes are counted as natural weapons, among other types of weapons, for Fighter Weapon Groups.
A monk’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet.
...
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Therefore, if a Monk or anyone else gets Magic Fang cast on them, part of the casting is to specify which natural weapon is given the bonus. Right hand, left hand,right knee, head, whatever.
Which is also why some Monks prefer Greater Magic Fang, since it can give a +1 bonus to any part of their body that they attack with.
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Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing.Unarmed strikes are counted as natural weapons, among other types of weapons, for Fighter Weapon Groups.
No. Unarmed strikes are differentiated from natural weapons for Fighter Weapon Groups. The fighter weapon group "Natural" includes two distinct, separate groups of weapons:
- unarmed strike- all natural weapons
If an unarmed strike was a natural weapon, this rule would read: "Natural: all natural weapons, such as unarmed strike, bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing."
Another example is CRB p.182 where unarmed strikes and natural weapons are, again two distinct and separate types of attacks, each with their own set of rules.
And yet another is CRB p.57/58, Monk Flurry of blows ability: Monks may use any combination of unarmed strikes and monk weapons in a flurry, but they may not use natural weapons.
Unarmed strikes are their own class of attack and are not part of the natural weapons group.
Therefore, if a Monk or anyone else gets Magic Fang cast on them, part of the casting is to specify which natural weapon is given the bonus. Right hand, left hand,right knee, head, whatever.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Oh, you got me there, I missed that part!
So yes, when a monk makes an unarmed strike, he may choose what part of his body to use. If said monk has a Kama in each hand, he may still make unarmed attacks with other parts of his body. You could cast Magic Fang on him and enhance his knee or forehead.
A monk could then choose to use solely this one bodypart in all attacks of a flurry of blows.
A level 1 fighter with two-weapon fighting, on the other hand, would have to get two casts of Magic Fang cast on her if she wanted to make two magically enhanced attacks as a full-round action. And she'd have to have her hands free. Her unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons for the purpose of spells and one cast only enhances one of her fists.
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The point of that clarification in the Monk Unarmed Strike section was to allow the use of not only Magic Fang but also Magic Weapon upon a Monk's Unarmed attack (as it is also considered a manufactured weapon). It does nothing to expand what an unarmed strike is in general (or even for Monk's specifically).
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weaponWithin the Unarmed Attack section of the combat chapter, the terms 'unarmed attack' and 'unarmed strike' are used interchangeably. this would imply that while Magic Fang does indeed list 'fist' in it's description, the definition of 'unarmed strike' would supersede it and cover kicks, head butts, etc. as well since it does give the bonus to
Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls.
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Honestly, I find the whole rules lawyering thing on monks to be bad for the game. I've seen players with monks in PFS nearly start to cry, literally, as early as level 3 because they were virtually incapable of damaging enemies due to DR5. I hated to tell them that low levels are when monks are at their finest...
But I'll play:
Can a monk flurry with twf?: No. Flurry already acts as if you were twfing, so it doesn't stack.
Can a fighter use TWF with unarmed attacks? Why wouldn't they? Do they not have two legs or hands?
Does an unarmed attack need use a fist: No. It states it already in the description, and the whole idea of monks being incapable of headbutting or kicking is stupid.
What about Magic Fang and unarmed attacks: It enchants 1 body part, like a fist or claw. A monk only needs one body part enchanted to flurry, so it's kind of unnecessary to do more.
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Now that the monk has been brought up, I have had a couple of questions for awhile now...
Let's say I have a multiclassed Monk2/Fighter5 with 20 Dex.
-Can he take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting? Since apparently Flurry of Blows counts as Two-Weapon Fighting, does Flurry of Blows count as the feat prerequisite for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting?
Now let's say he takes Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, by spending either two feats or one. Let's assume he is not wearing armor, and is using monk weapons.
-When he full-attacks, what happens?
-Matt
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Now that the monk has been brought up, I have had a couple of questions for awhile now...
Let's say I have a multiclassed Monk2/Fighter5 with 20 Dex.
-Can he take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting? Since apparently Flurry of Blows counts as Two-Weapon Fighting, does Flurry of Blows count as the feat prerequisite for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting?
It functions as the Two-Weapon Fighting mechanic when you're using it. However, it never says it actually grants you the feat. (And if it did, then it wouldn't really be able to restrict which weapons you can use.) So no, you don't have the TWF feat, even for purposes of prereqs.
Now let's say he takes Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, by spending either two feats or one. Let's assume he is not wearing armor, and is using monk weapons.
-When he full-attacks, what happens?
-Matt
When he does so, he can choose whether to make it a Flurry of Blows or not. If he chooses not to make it a Flurry, his BAB is +6/+1 and he gets four attacks (two iteratives, one from the TWF mechanic, and one from the ITWF feat).
If he chooses to make it a flurry, his BAB is +7/+2. I'm not quite sure whether he gets his fourth attack or not, but on the bright side, all his attacks get full STR mod to damage. :D