the order of the nail confuses me in this AP.
Initially they come in as an aid and ally to the Queen, then they abandon her and outside of the scope of the AP try to organize resistance against her, why?
She's some how worse than other recent Cheliaxian rulers?
Devils and martial law? sound like cheliax. Why don't they try to overthrow Abrogail?
Why did they agree to help her in the first place if they are against egorian reborn in korvosa?
They realized she's a bit rotten, and doesn't fit their code of law at all.
I'd assume they tried to help since she was a rightful ruler, and they didn't know how bad she was.
again that brings up my question of behaviors toward most of cheliax??
the lictor of the order of the nail is LE.
Illeosa is NE.
The things she brings to pass are evil, yes, she creates some of the chaos to enable her martial law and quell the very chaos she created with her version of "law" but how would the Nail know she did that stuff? It doesn't necessarily say?
It does say some of her gray maidens are from the ranks of the order, doe the order leave because she's actively stealing their knights? Why would the order of the nail be powerless to oppose her as it states? They choose to oppose her, they ARE the powerful troops in the streets in the early part of the campaign, I fail to see how the gray maidens could pose such a threat to them that quickly being so new and only recently organized.
There has to be be something Im missing/overlooking....
Leaders of the Nail aren't listed as being very high level in particular.... interesting, a young or small order?
The second-in-command of the Order of the Nail is LG and quite strong, you know.
Not all Hellknights are Evil just because their leader is, especially since he can't run all the operations at once.
As for the Gray Maidens, just because an organization is new doesn't mean individual members are inexperienced.
They were a hand-picked elite force of knights chosen to serve and protect Ileosa if I remember the whole thing right at the moment.
forced into service through torture, threats and magical means, many of them were once hell knights.
I'm curious, if some of the maidens were hellknights, but they left the order (obviously) do they lose their abilities as hell knights? (assuming they had levels of hellknights, which I may alter some stats here and there, seeing as they have 3.5 stats anyway)
They lose their powers when/if they stop being Lawful.
most of the maidens are LN or LE, so the ones that leave the order of the nail to become maidens would still be "hell knights?" Under the section about reckoning, it mentions infractions being, "disobeying a superior hell knight" amoung others, wouldnt leaving an order be disobeying.
If CotCT were to be Pathfinferized, would the grey maidens be considered their own, unrecognized order of hellknights? With Illeosa as paravicar and sabine as mistress of blades?
There is mention of some former maidens in Shattered Star (although I read it briefly, that mentions at least one of them still alive as a former hellknight but doesn't stat her with any levels of hell knight....an armiger? or oversight?)
Edit: nevermind found one that was a hellknight but she was magically duped. still leaves the question could one leave the order of the nail for the grey maidens and keep her hellknight abilities?
I'm thinking of making the palace guards cavalier honor guard archetypes and having several leaders have hell knight levels....probably order of the cockatrice....order order order...seems like hellknight should be an order or archetype and not a PrC...?
It's kind of up to the DM whether they have actual Hellknight levels or not if you ask me.
The text about how a Hellknight loses his/her powers only mentioned consistent unlawful behaviour if I recall right.
It's kind of up to the DM whether they have actual Hellknight levels or not if you ask me.
The text about how a Hellknight loses his/her powers only mentioned consistent unlawful behaviour if I recall right.
Ive been reading it there are two semi conflicting entries on the subject.
And those would be?
under "reckonings" it mentions a hell knight will loose all supernatural powers if it does not confess and do self damage through reckoning with in 1 week of said infraction.
One of the infractions listed is "disobeying a superior hell knight"
Under the PrC description addressing "reckonings and ex-hellknights" it states what you say, pretty much needs to remain lawful.... so the two entries on hell knights are contradicting.
Reading the history of orders and such, for other orders to have formed one must assume there was schism amoung the orders, which means leaving one order to start another and so there for disobeying an original superior, eventually orders recognize some new orders, but for example the order of the scourge has fought against and wiped out newer orders that refused to disband.... so it seems hellknights were fighting hell knights.... anyway confusing.... but Im leaning toward going with yes they are still hell knights but might lose a discipline if they had one from their old order.
Anyone want to have fun and help me come up with a grey maiden discipline if I decide to make it into a hellknight order?
Well, wasn't the loyalty of the Gray Maidens primarily to Ileosa as well as to Korvosa itself as a secondary thing?
I could see them as becoming a Hellknight Order of sorts, even if the other Orders would barely recognize them as such.
In the AP it sort of sorts out apparently two groups of Maidens. those who view Sabine as their commander and those who have fierce loyalty to illeosa.
They seem to be barracked separately, with the sabine faction located in the barracks (long house or something cant recall the name, players havent gotten that far) and the illeosa-ites physically located in the castle.
I figure the castle clan I was going to make Order of the cockatrice cavaliers with leaders being hell knights and giving them "honor guard" archetypes.
Im assuming the evil ones are the honor guard and the more neutral ones are in long acre.
Sounds good to me, and I might actually incorporate this for a future CotCT campaign if I get a chance to run one.
Of all the facets of CotCT the Order of the Nail actions/reactions were the most difficult of all for me, as the DM, to decide upon and portray to my players. Luckily, I had no player with a close tie to the organization so it wasn't necessary to provide them with a major role.
My decision was to give the organiztion scene time in EoA tapering off through 7days, as the Maidens began there rise to power, and finally ending in their self-imposed exile.
I converted all of the gray maidens to cavaliers. I created an order of the gray maiden, which was pretty much order of the lion with all the mounted hoopla converted to similar non-mounted qualities.
ah cool i sorta saw it the same way, a cavaliers edicts greatly resemble the maidens oath of allegiance, although I might use order of the warrior or cockatrice.
Im also rebuilding doctors as alchemists.
The Hellknights are devoted to the concept of law. Illeosa, as the AP progresses, lets order in the city crumble. Riots, the plague, assassins, and more are turning Korvosa into madhouse. Old Korvosa is cut off from the rest of the city and left to fend for itself. That's not law. There are plenty of reasons for them to turn against the Queen.
Riots and the plague the order helps with. They have no way of knowing the plague was illeosa's doing.
Let me see, Slaughter in the streets is performed by..... The order of the nail, yes yes so very anti Illeosa.
Assassins? What Assassins, how does the order of the nail know anything about assassins?
Cutting off old korvosa, are you sure that's not something the order wouldn't have done themselves? It was full of plague (because the queen made it so because she wanted people in there/from there to die, which is why she started the plague), but full of plague none the less, in order to "save the rest of the city" old korvosa was quarantined.
Quarantine was a very popular plague reaction IRL (especially when no one knew what was really spreading the disease).
More of the Issue is what do the knights KNOW. What's happening isn't necessarily abhorrent to the order. They're just like Darth Vaders Storm troopers.."oh that one looks like a rebel! how do you know? It was running away, But I put a stop to that!"
What I'm getting at is either a) the knights figured out some of this plot on their own.
or b) they leave korvosa because the Gray Maidens are formed and they are no longer needed?
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The Order or the Nail actually wasn't there strictly to help Korvosa. The Order was only called in occasionally, when they were paid to by the current Monarch to help maintain Law (Law is all they care about, oh and more Law, no matter the morality). Ileosa called them in to help quell the riots and keep order during the plague, but afterward they lost so many of their own, much like the Sable Company and Korvosan Guard, that they simply went back to Citadel Vraid to lick their wounds. That and Ileosa wasn't coughing up any more cash from her coffers for them to stay, because she had her own order of Grey Maidens now handling things. That's about all I put into it. They were really more of an afterthought in my campaign.
The doctors were definitely alchemists in my campaign, but I made the maidens Spellbreaker Inquisitors (with Ileosa as their 'diety') and multiclassed in Armor Master Fighter. Makes it somewhat ironic since they're all mind-controlled by Ileosa that they fight other casters but are unwholesomely loyal to that evil brat. Keep in mind it isn't Law the Maidens favor, its an utter devotion to their Queen via charm magic and geas. Anyone read the short web-story on paizo Shattered Steel? Its about a maiden post-AP, gives an interesting depth to them.
Also, the Grey Maidens living in the castle are all fully controlled by Ileosa (read evil murderesses), and the ones in Longacre building are actually 'rejects' who were too headstrong to be made into loyal guardswomen and whom Sabina convinced Ileosa should be imprisoned vs executed. They aren't true maidens. Doesn't mean they aren't a little messed up, or disfigured, but they owe their lives and loyalty to Sabina. There's more on this dynamic in Chapter 6.
Loyal through mindless devotion can still be lawful in alignment, if you look at some of the post CotCT former Maiden write ups in Shatter Star some of them (more than you would think) willingly served.
Sabine is LN. Her dedication to Illeosa blinded her to what was going on almost before it as too late. Sabine was never even magically dominated.
The Docs will be alchemists for me. I'm going to stay with cavaliers for the maidens separating the palace ones as "honor guard" archetypes ( to reflect their "elite" purpose) and have the long acre maidens being fighters lead by inquisitors (officers) with the heresy inquisition, whose diety is Zon-Kuthon, but un beknownst to them (Illeosa though Kazavon to Zon-Kuthon)
ah cool i sorta saw it the same way, a cavaliers edicts greatly resemble the maidens oath of allegiance, although I might use order of the warrior or cockatrice.
Im also rebuilding doctors as alchemists.
Rebuilt doctors as alchemists also, bombing PC's while killing plague victims in the hospice really pissed off my paladin and oracle. The oracle PC is a real nurse so he showed no pity on them. By the way, this makes them substantially more dangerous. I also gave Dr D some alchemist levels and he was very deadly.
is there a discovery for diseased bombs?
is there a discovery for diseased bombs?
Not that I am aware of, but hey craft one up for your Queen's Physicians. That's the fun of DMing AP's, tweaking and twisting them up to make them your own, and suprising the heck out of your players.