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I'm trying to create a character for a Rise of the Runelords campaign that's basically a Cyphermage who came to Sandpoint to study the local ruins. The question I have is which of the gods would look most favorably on the practice of archaeology.
There are two gods who look like they'd work: Irori and Nethys, but both of them have problems connecting to the concept. First of all, both Irori and Nethys are kind of foreign presences in Varisia, Irori being a Vudran import and Nethys being more a Garundi phenomenon. Second, their focuses don't really lend themselves to "study ancient Thassilon for the sake of study."
Irori is a god of history, yes, but it's more in the spiritual sense of "You must learn from the mistakes of the past to make the future a better place," which isn't what I'm going for with this character. The concept I'm more going for is "the Thassilonians and what happened to them is a puzzle I want to solve." Most people don't go into archaeology for its spiritual elements. From what I can tell, Irorans don't keep libraries of books full of dates, timelines and diagrams of pottery shards and weathered statues, but rather have wall-scrolls with vague anecdotes and parables and ACTUAL weathered statues, perhaps with a bit about how that person became enlightened carved into the pedestal.
Nethys is even more peripheral because he's a patron of magic. That could work in the sense that Thassilon was an empire built on magic and a pioneer of its study, creating the schools wizards still specialize in to this day, but Nethys seems more "mad scientist" than "bookish archaeologist." Why study mages dead and gone when you could be accumulating power and pushing the envelope of magic? The character I have in mind isn't interested in Thassilon for the power of its ruins or artifacts so much as "I wanna know what it was like back then." Besides, this character isn't a wizard or sorcerer anyway, the kind of scholars that would gravitate towards Nethys.
So I'm kind of stuck. Neither the god of history or of magic really make sense for this kind of character, whose interest in Thassilon is academic, rather than spiritual or because of its magic. Are there any non-evil divine patrons out there who would look after academicians like this? Or am I overthinking this?
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That's kind of one of the things I relly hate about Golarion deities. So much overlap, but so many cracks that concepts really just do not fit and they do not actually work for.
Sivanah (N) female deity of mystery, Illusions, and Reflections might work, but again, sort of a deity of magic more than what you really want (probably).
Of the Eldest, the Lost Prince (N), male psuedodeity of lost things, but seems more interested in the concept and feeling of loss than discovering them again. Sor of an emo, Fey deity.
The Empyreal Lord, Korada (NG) is sort of a mystic, monk/wiseman might work.
Lastly, Pharasma might work as well.
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Irori is probably your best bet for a god with an academic appreciation of archeology. Golarion deities and their worshipers in general don't have much use for archeology - they already know their history, as it's the one handed down to them from on high.
"Most people don't go into archaeology for its spiritual elements." sums it up pretty well. So, one option might be to pick whatever deity feels right to you, and have your character be interested in the mysteries of the past as an unrelated character element. There's no reason that a worshiper of Iomedae or Abadar wouldn't also have an interest in the mysteries of the past. Lawful deities probably work best for this (Neutral gods tend to leave the past alone, Chaotic gods care more about the present).
A worshiper of Irori who is a stranger to the region might be another option. As an outsider, they would have a vested interest in learning all about this strange land with it's stranger gods. Perhaps he or she could come from a Tien sect that sees Irori in a far less martial light, and seeks to catalog the ancient civilizations of Varisia to uncover origins of the Tien people.
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"Most people don't go into archaeology for its spiritual elements." sums it up pretty well.
I disagree. Both in the real world and in the game world, but I'm just going to focus on the game world for this. A religious character (divine or not) could easily be motivated to understand history and context to better understand aspects of their religion's accepted doctrine and a deeper meaning to it. Using a real world example, many archeologists, scientists, and historians try to understand and find evidence of various Christian/Hebrew Bible events. Noah's Ark, the Flood, the Ark of the Covenant, etc. . . In Golarion, the exact same rinciple could be applied to any number of artfacts, events, or myths. I have/had a character that believes the reason that cyphrmages can not grasp the truth behind Riddleport, or similar things like ancient Azlant relics is because they are tackling it from the wrong direction, and need to understand it from a more divine magic perspective. This may (or may not) be completely false, but that is what the character believes/understands, and basically is a Cleric Cyphermage.
Another great example, drawing from the real world would be Catholic priests dedicated to studying claims of "miracles" (statues weeping blood, Jesus's face on a wall, etc. . .). This could easily be translated to Golarion, or similarly those faithful that explore and want to reclaim lost temples and holy relics of the past. Pathfinder/Golarion has done next to nothing with the concept, but that doesn't mean it has no presence.
It's also a bit odd, as a great deal of Pathfinder material is partially focused around PFS play/concept, and honestly a Good (or at least N) deity/faith/religious group (sort of like the Silver Crusade) that follows a deity of exploration, wisdom/understanding, and "archeology" seems like it would have been a no-brainer.
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Very good points, both of you. And it gives me an idea! Why not a follower of Abadar? After all, what is archaeology if not the study of CIVILIZATION? Its history, its culture, why it rises and falls as the ages turn. Now to just figure out how to translate that to a skittish halfling who'd much rather be in the library or delivering a lecture to students than out adventuring. Going for a kind of Bilbo Baggins/C-3P0 kind of personality.
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Well, in the PFS Field Guide, there is a group called the Scrolls (as in magic scrolls) that area all about study. There is a combo Wizard or Cleric Archtype that revolves around this which might be of some use. Abadar is an ok option, again not rally fitting the concept jsut right, but also not really mutually exclusive to it either.
Abadar is much more about the here and now, and expanding civilization (order and commerce), but an idividual could go beyond that a bit. For a Divine class, the rule will not add up to the flavor, but if you can get past that (maybe through the Seperatist Archtype, but honestly still the mechanics will not really fit the flavor). For non-Divine characters, this isn't really that much of an issue.
If you are allowed to look at non-core products, I would point at the Archievist (Heroes of Horror, D&D 3.5) or The Cloistered Cleric (D&D Unearthed Arcana) on the Divine side. For an Arcane caster, a straight Diviner/Universalist Wizard is good to go, as would a Bard (or Archeologist Bard Archtype), Rogue, or basically anyone else even halfway within the theme.
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I'm looking specifically at the Archivist Bard archetype, since the party I'm joining already has a Witch and an Aberrant Sorcerer, and it's less a matter of "I worship Abadar as a lay brother and go to temple every Sunday" and more "Abadar is the entry on my character sheet because he's the one whose ethos aligns the most with mine." Before you ask "If he's not that pious why is his deity even an issue?" it's because I hate leaving any slot on a character sheet blank. I'm OCD that way. :p
Abadar might work to an extent too.
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Actualy, Torag (dwarf) might also work. But as is, it looks good.
You might even honestly step outside the "patron" deity (for rolplaying) and follow a pantheon-style belief similar to the Godclaw. Your not a divine caster, so it has no bearing on you. You could venerate deities like Desna (travel & exploration), Abadar, (expansion, order, civilization), Pharasma (prophecy, knowledge), Torag (history & culture), Iori (whatever), Nethys (knowledge), and any number of other related deities.
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Perhaps, but the thing I was going with with that is that the followers of the Godclaw, venerate multiple deities that have a common focus in mind, but very diffrnt ideals on how to impliment it. In this case it is law, order, and and ideal society, ranging from LG to LE.
I just mean that it might be cool for RP reasons if your bard had similar ideas along the lines of knowledge, discovery, and exploration.
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The idea that polytheism is heresy in a setting with nultiple actual gods that are not inherently omnipotent, et al is in my estimate extremely laughable.
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It just has to do with Paizo insisting that Clerics need a single patron deity, regardless of the inconsistancies or logic fails that introduces. But that's a different topic. I don't know too much about the Godclaw, but I didn't think they where outcasts or "heretics" as much as just different, with a few members doing some things that mayb painted the group in a different light. I could be wrong.
Yeah in addition to the fact that even those that follow only one deity still emphasises a few aspects of that deity.
Among the clerics it's known as "choosing two domains" instead of all the domains.
The only difference is this guy is picking and choosing as a lay person among more than one god at a time.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Yeah in addition to the fact that even those that follow only one deity still emphasises a few aspects of that deity.
Among the clerics it's known as "choosing two domains" instead of all the domains.
The only difference is this guy is picking and choosing as a lay person among more than one god at a time.
I think the heretical part of the Godclaw comes not from emphasizing certain aspects of each deity, but as Zousha said from ignoring the core ethos of those deities at the same time.
A cleric might venerate Iomedae's Lawful aspect above all others, and in doing so might be similar to a Godclaw worshiper in some respects, but he still has to follow the teachings of Iomedae. He can't, for example, burn down a house full of innocent people just because he suspects they're hiding a fugitive. The cleric must eschew Evil, even if he doesn't strive to be Good.
A follower of the Godclaw can totally do that though, because Iomedae's Lawful aspect is the only one he cares about. He'll gladly torch the home (provided he's got legal authority to do so), and cut down anyone trying to escape (because hiding fugitives is illegal). And he'll do it all in Iomdae's name, because he's advancing the cause of Law (Which would understandably rankle the Iomedaeans).
That's why, if you just want to worship multiple deities, the Godclaw really isn't a good example to follow. They twist the teachings of their five deities to fit a preconceived philosophy (Law über alles).
If you just want to be a polytheist or worship a pantheon, you can do that easy enough. Just write "polytheist" or "pantheon" in your deity slot. Pick a few deities, and pray to one or more of them whenever it feels appropriate.
Norgorber? He is the god of secrets and I could see him having a bunch of archaeologists working for him.
Aroden was the god of human culture, history, and innovation. The links between people in the past, present and future. I think an archaeologist venerating a dead god is kind of charming, actually. You're not drawing power from him, so why not?
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Aroden was the god of human culture, history, and innovation. The links between people in the past, present and future. I think an archaeologist venerating a dead god is kind of charming, actually. You're not drawing power from him, so why not?
1. He's formerly from Cheliax, or at least Korvosa, and thus grew up among people who are still kind of pissy about Aroden.
2. He's a halfling. Aroden's patronage was almost exclusively towards humans (I don't know how much has been written about him, but I got a subtle human-supremacist vibe from him, only corroborated when I read that one of the reasons Xin was kicked out of Azlant was because he thought the other races like elves and dwarves had value).
Shelyn, particularly for an archaeologist looking for art piece or architectural history.
The idea that polytheism is heresy in a setting with nultiple actual gods that are not inherently omnipotent, et al is in my estimate extremely laughable.
Some gods don't like to share. See Asmodeus. And when the soul dies, it gets complicated. Which god has a claim on his soul ?
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Might want to look at sub domains and pick the one that fits why your character is going into the field of study:
- Artiface for the things you pull out of the ground?
- Ancestors for those whose homes and resting places you are disturbing?
- Exploration for the finding of things?
- Memory because you are trying to pull the memory of the time the place/item was in use back to the world?
Those are just some examples
The idea that polytheism is heresy in a setting with nultiple actual gods that are not inherently omnipotent, et al is in my estimate extremely laughable.Some gods don't like to share. See Asmodeus. And when the soul dies, it gets complicated. Which god has a claim on his soul ?
Actually the only way a claim can be laid on a soul is through a contract -- otherwise they go to their alignment plane.