|
Level 10, generally considered the money level since DPR Olympics time. I am actually going to try and get the math right on this one rather than half ass it as I did on the others, as this will be a level that really matters for the check, since we have so many other 10th level builds to compare it to.
Str 20 (13) +1 4th +2 Belt
Dex 14 (2) +2 Belt
Con 14 (0) +2 Racial +2 Belt
Wis 21 (5) +2 Racial +4 Headband +1 8th
Int 10 (0)
Cha 8 (0) -2 Racial
AC 23, Touch 21, Flat 21 (2 dex, 5 Wisdom, +1 dodge, +2 monk, +1 ring, +2 Bracers)
HP 88 (+1 per level)
Init +6
Movement 50
Attack +15 (1d6+7 damage +2d6 Holy(5 str, +2 enhancement)
Flurry +16/+16/+11/+11 (1d6+7 +2d6 Holy)
Stun DC 20
Fort:11 Ref:11 Will:14 (+2 enchantment)
Skills (50 to spend)
Feats
1st Toughness
Monk 1 (Dodge)
Monk 2 (Improved Grapple)
3rd Weapon Focus (unarmed)
5th Power attack
Monk 6 (Improved Disarm)
7th Extra Ki
9th Improved Initiative
Monk 10 Spring Attack
Equipment (46k gold)
Ring of protection +1 (2000)
Bracers of Armor +2 (4000)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000)
Amulet of Mighty Fists (Holy) (20000)
Headband of inspired Wisdom (16000)
Belt of Physical Perfection (Dex/Str/Con) +2 (16000)
Immune Loto all diseases.
Wholeness of Body
Improved evasion
Slow Fall 40
Ki Pool of 10
Lost the haversack again so I could afford to add a con bonus to my belt. Upped the Headband to +4 and that is all my gold, bringing my Wisdom to 20.
First lets go to the Bestiary.
Hit points 130 (Nope, only 88)
AC 24 (23, just missed it)
High Attack 18 (15, nope although I think this is misleading and I will say why later)
Low attack 13 (11 again, I'll say later)
High damage 45 (31.5 non-evil, 59.5 evil. More with power attack, but meh on all that calculating)
Low damage 33 (Not sure how to calculate)
Primary save 19 (I am at 20)
Secondary Save 13 (N/A)
Good save 13 (I have 14)
Bad save 9 (I have 11)
I was no where near Hit Points and I just missed AC, but I am also immune to a ton of things and have improved evasion, so I'm ok with that. Plus I just added Spring Attack, so I can stun and run. Moving a few things around I can get to the AC, but I'm ok with it.
The high attack is misleading to me since I get so many attacks, same with low attack. Damage could actually just be 59.5 if I had taken flaming and icy or flaming and acid instead of holy, so I'm very ok with the damage.
So I think this is ok. Not great, but good enough for my goals.
Looking at the five questions.
1.Should be able to hit with a primary attack more than 50% but less than 75%
2.Stunning fist should work more than 10% but less that 25%
3.AC should be greater than the Bestiary averages (it is a melee class)
4.DPR should be greater than the average ¾ caster class wading into melee but less than the average Martial Class (we can discuss what these exact numbers are, but again, just looking for consensus)
5.All of this should be able to be accomplished unarmored and unarmed.
1. CR 10 AC is 24, so I am hitting over 50%.
2. Good save is 13 and bad is 9 so I'm very much in a ranger where stunning fist meets my goals, if not a little high.
3. Didn't make this one. Could have (next bracer is only 5k away, could have gotten that rather than the con boost), but I didn't. I am ok with it, particularly when you consider the touch and flatfooted, but it was a goal and I didn't make it with this build.
4. I am happy with the DPR. I feel like I am definitely a threat but not outshining the Martial classes
5. Check.
I'm pleased, but it is my build so that isn't surprising. Thoughts of others?
It meets the minimum standards you set out (kinda, I'll explain further down) but to do it, you spent every last gold on items. You have nothing for consumables, food, shelter, nothing. I know, it isn't a standard you set forth, but any build I look at that's one of the first things I check.
Anyway, on the other stuff.
The to hit isn't bad. Against lower cr critters it averages a 60%ish hit rate at CR 9 from a quick glance through at some of the more iconic monsters (dragons, demons, elementals, couple monsterous humanoids andmsomemundead) so that's ok, but that's a CR below. Against an even CR opponent...
Against a piscodaemon, you have +15 to hit vs his AC of 24, so 55% of the time. His Fort Save is +14, so he saves vs your stunning fist 70% of the time. Thankfully you have the holy amulet, so his DR of 10/good is ignored. If you had gone the flaming/something route, you could still punch through, but it would be noticeable on your output.
In return, his attacks are at a +18 vs your AC of 23, so he hits you 75% of the time. He can poison, with a DC of 22 to resist, so your looking at 55% chance to save vs it. You don't have DR, so his attacks don't worry about that.
Against an Adult White Dragon, it's worse. Much worse. His AC of 27 means you hit only on a 12 up, so you hit 40% of the time. His Fort save is +13, so if you hit your odds of stunning at 35% aren't horrible. His DR is magic so that's a wash.
When he attacks you though...he hits 80% of the time itch his best attack, his bite. And he has reach with it, so AoOs are something to think about. His breath weapon is DC 21, so half the time your fine, he other half your happy you have improved evasion. No DR so his 80% hit rate will be painful.
Against a fire giant, you hit his AC of 24 55% of the time. He has a Fort save of +14 so your stunning fist has a 30% chance of effecting him. No DR so that's a wash there.
He hits you 85% of the time with his first swing. He has no special abilities really other than reach, so you have to worry about AoOs and that negates some of your mobility advantage.
That's just 3, on my tablet so not wanting to put a bigger wall of text.
The short and sweet version comes down to its an improvement, but fighting at his weight class he is barely, barely at par. Possibly subpar considering that against many opponents his mobility can be negated and their ability to hurt him outstrips his ability to hurt them.
So, I'd say its a good start, but not quite enough. Also, this illustrates why the stunning fist DC can afford to be higher. It only applies if you hit, and at a 60%ish hit rate it needs to be more reliable.
|
|
I would also say to keep in mind this is core only at this point.
If I were playing this monk, he would be mainly hit and run against something like a dragon. Use spring attack and the +30 movement to hope for a lucky stun rather than to trade blows.
He has improved disarm and grapple, which are very useful in more human encounters.
I'm not criticizing the critique, you make good points, I'm just saying that we can all agree the trade off is a significant improvement without being overpowered.
If the debate turns to "this isn't enough" I am fine with that, but I think if a Dev looks at this it is unlikely they would say "It is too much"
So if this is part of the fix, I like it. It is a simple swap that corrects a gap.
I have played a monk to epic levels and had no problems with it. That was in 3.5, when monks were weaker and I was still use to 2nd ed rules. I used stunning fist on a blood magus at level seven when he was around 15th. With help from one other party member and some lucky rolls he was dog-meat, all because of a stupid little 7th level monk and his stunning fist. In all fairness I was gestalted at level ten into cleric, but it took a bit of time for that to really matter (divine power). It would have been made slightly better had clerics been in possession of energy channeling then.
In the end it really depends on what campaign you are in and what dm you have. I do not stick to standard rules all the time, being that I played Hero for so long, I believe you should be able to do anything you want to with your character - within reason. The current game I am trying to run is a very high powered game. So far I have two paladins and a 3.0 - 3.5 warlock in the party. The NPCs will be a vitalist psion and a ninja. Normally people would say the warlock is going to be underpowered, but in my world warlocks are more like avatars of the plane of existence or ideal they uphold. The warlock will be a mechanus warlock, Mechanus being like the Dark Tower of my setting, running through the multiverse from the hells and the abyss to the heavens. His eldritch blast acts as axiomatic and he eventually turns into a golem, in the traditional sense of the word - a divine harbinger sent from Mechanus. There will be several times that characters may have to go all day fighting, as there are dead cities from the previous kingdoms filled with legions of undead. So you can see fairly quickly the old adage about warlocks being weak compared to the 'nova' classes goes right out the window in my game.
Back to the point of this post though. I would totally let someone enchant their unarmed strike for base cost as weapons and wouldn't have a second thought about it. Or I would just use the 3.0 monk rules on magic bonuses and what dr it bypasses. I don't care so much about balance, because I tend to balance things myself. Spellcasters are still ridiculous in my world, but I have various means to overcome magic, as the people have been living with it tens of thousands of years. I believe people over-think things and rules lawyer too much. The first rule to running any table-top roleplaying game is to run the game as you see fit, meaning break or bend rules as you need to. Someone else might think it is stupid and not by the books, but it is all preference in the end.
Sarvain, our issue is not that anyone can't house-rule in a change to the monk, because they can. Problem is that unlike ten years ago, there is a lot more requirement for things to standardise. I can't go to a group and say "I want to use my version of the monk" if I'm not the DM. I certainly cannot do so in a PFS game, and the 'standardised' type of game like PFS is becoming more common these days.
When I started playing D&D back in the later 70's every game was a massively house-ruled home-brew, and we all had the time to write meticulous campaigns off our own bat. That's now changed, gamers seem to have less time to home-brew, and less inclination to house-rule, especially with programs like HeroLab doing the heavy-lifting for them that have to run on standard. People are expecting to pick-up-and-play a campaign - that's why the adventure paths sell so well.
Hence game mechanics need to be better balanced from the outset. The PF monk isn't, it's behind the curve.
PS - not forgotten those test builds. Will be posting one soon.
And soon is now. This build is based on the following provisos:
Human Monk 10
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +20
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 22, flat-footed 24 (+3 armor, +3 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 73 (10d8+20)
Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +16; +2 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune disease
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee Dagger +9/+4 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Kama +17/+12 (1d6+4/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +19/+14 (1d6+4/17-20/x2) (FoB +19/+19/+14/+14)
Ranged +1 Light crossbow +11/+6 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +7/+7/+2/+2, Ki Strike +2
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 14/16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20/24, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +20 (+22 Grappling, +22 Tripping); CMD 34 (36 vs. Grapple, 40 vs. Trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Snake Fang, Snake Sidewind, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 22), Toughness +10, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Poverty-Stricken, Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device)
Skills Acrobatics +16 (+28 jump, +26 to jump), Climb +12, Disable Device +16, Escape Artist +7, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +20, Ride +7, Sense Motive +22, Stealth +16, Survival +12, Swim +6
Languages Common
SQ AC Bonus +9, Antitoxin, Fast Movement (+30'), High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Slow Fall 50', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use)
Combat Gear +1 Light crossbow, Dagger, Masterwork Kama; Other Gear Acid (2), Alchemist's fire (3), Alkali flask (2), Amulet of natural armor +2, Antitoxin, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Bracers of armor +3, Bullseye lantern, waterproof, Chalk, Climber's kit, Cloak of resistance +2, Crowbar, Everburning torch, Grappling hook, Handy haversack (34 @ 89.14 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Monk's robe, Paper, Pot, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Scroll case (empty), Sealing wax, Sewing needle, Shovel, Silk rope, Sunrod (5), Tea ceremony set, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Thread (50 ft.), Trail rations (3), Waterskin
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +9 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Antitoxin This substance counteracts a specific toxin. If you drink a vial of antitoxin, you gain a +5 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison for 1 hour.
Alchemical Power Component
Like antiplague, this substance can augment certain healing spells.
Neutralize Poison (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to neutralize poison on a target creature. Antitoxin has no effect when you cast the spell on an object.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +7/+7/+2/+2 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, +2 (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic +2.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
Snake Sidewind Gain a bonus to avoid being knocked prone, and use Sense Motive check to confirm critical hits
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 22) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Weapon Training The monk gains +2 to hit and damage with monk weapons and unarmed strikes
Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
First lets go to the Bestiary.
Hit points 130 (Nope, only 73)
AC 24 (27, comfortably over)
High Attack 18 (19, slightly better)
High damage 45 (30, somewhat down)
Primary save 19 (good at 22)
Good save 13 (up at 16)
Bad save 9 (up at 10)
So defences other than hp are good, but not outstanding.
Looking at the five questions.
1.Should be able to hit with a primary attack more than 50% but less than 75% - well at 80%, this one is slightly high.
2.Stunning fist should work more than 10% but less that 25% - Hitting 80% of the time, saving at 60% gives us 32% success rate, which is slightly high.
3.AC should be greater than the Bestiary averages (it is a melee class) - check this one.
4.DPR should be greater than the average ¾ caster class wading into melee but less than the average Martial Class (we can discuss what these exact numbers are, but again, just looking for consensus) - well the DPR is low, no question of that, even the greater threat range will not make this challenge a full BAB classes potential DPR.
5.All of this should be able to be accomplished unarmored and unarmed - check.
This monk is dangerous but not unstopable. The stunning fist is more effective than I expected, but not brokenly so.
I would also say to keep in mind this is core only at this point.
If I were playing this monk, he would be mainly hit and run against something like a dragon. Use spring attack and the +30 movement to hope for a lucky stun rather than to trade blows.
He has improved disarm and grapple, which are very useful in more human encounters.
I'm not criticizing the critique, you make good points, I'm just saying that we can all agree the trade off is a significant improvement without being overpowered.
If the debate turns to "this isn't enough" I am fine with that, but I think if a Dev looks at this it is unlikely they would say "It is too much"
So if this is part of the fix, I like it. It is a simple swap that corrects a gap.
I had assumed that hit and run was what your build was going for, yeah. But even with that, the giant can keep you in reach, and the dragons flight movement far outstrips yours. So it doesn't really fix any of the issues except the DR one. It mitigates the hit issue, some, as you went Str as your big stat, which also helps with damage. It just seems like as a whole, he put all his wealth into doing one thing, and even then he is, at best, mediocre. Yes, with party support and buffs (very likely, it is a group game) he gets up to the level where an unbuffed martial class would be. But that is the problem.
I think it is a good start. If it is coupled with 6+Int skill points a level it makes a viable rogue substitute. If the goal is to be a martial substitute, I'm thinking maybe increase the rate of enhancement bonus gain, and possibly rework the build to be finesse based over Strength based.
I am at work, but I will see if I can get a build up of the monk revision I did.
|
|
Good build. My concerns/suggestions
1. Stunning fist is a bit high. A 1 in 3 shot of making the enemy an unmoving target AND doing damage is higher than I personally would like.
2. Swap that +1 crossbow and amulet of natural armor for an AoMF and you can add at least another 1d6 of damage per hit. Or just add another +1 since the AoMF is going to stack with weapon training. This is where I get a bit concerned about attack bonus being a bit high.
3. Lose the monk robe and some savings from the above and you can get a belt (str dex or con) to help with other gaps.
I can see room to break this monk a bit with the stun lock. 1 in 3 seems to high to me, but maybe I am a bit to conservative.
|
|
I had assumed that hit and run was what your build was going for, yeah. But even with that, the giant can keep you in reach, and the dragons flight movement far outstrips yours. So it doesn't really fix any of the issues except the DR one. It mitigates the hit issue, some, as you went Str as your big stat, which also helps with damage. It just seems like as a whole, he put all his wealth into doing one thing, and even then he is, at best, mediocre. Yes, with party support and buffs (very likely, it is a group game) he gets up to the level where an unbuffed martial class would be. But that is the problem.I think it is a good start. If it is coupled with 6+Int skill points a level it makes a viable rogue substitute. If the goal is to be a martial substitute, I'm thinking maybe increase the rate of enhancement bonus gain, and possibly rework the build to be finesse based over Strength based.
I am at work, but I will see if I can get a build up of the monk revision I did.
I agree, this isn't the martial sub build. Maybe I will make a 10th level one more geared toward that, but given I was limiting myself to core, a more middle of he road utility build made more sense.
Keep me in reach for a single attack yes, but not a full attack, which is the trade. I'll take one and keep moving, you'll lose your full attack chasing me or I won't be the target. Remember I've got 50 movement normally and can burn a ki for to get to 70 if I get in trouble and need a little more room.
Bad tank, but it isn't a tank build. It is a mobile fighter, who can grapple/disarm or stun the enemy, depending on what is needed in a given setting.
|
|
More tank like 10th
Str 20 (13) +1 4th +2 Belt
Dex 14 (2) +2 Belt
Con 14 (0) +2 Racial +2 Belt
Wis 19 (5) +2 Racial +4 Headband +1 8th
Int 10 (0)
Cha 8 (0) -2 Racial
AC 25, Touch 21, Flat 21 (2 dex, 4 Wisdom, +1 dodge, +3 monk, +2 ring, +3 Bracers)
HP 88 (+1 per level)
Init +6
Movement 50
Attack +16 (1d6+8 damage +1d6 flaming(5 str, +2 enhancement)
Flurry +17/+17/+12/+12 (1d6+8 +1d6 flaming)
Stun DC 19
Fort:11 Ref:11 Will:14 (+2 enchantment)
Skills (50 to spend)
Feats
1st Toughness
Monk 1 (Dodge)
Monk 2 (Improved Grapple)
3rd Weapon Focus (unarmed)
5th Power attack
Monk 6 (Improved Disarm)
7th Extra Ki
9th Improved Initiative
Monk 10 Spring Attack
Equipment (46k gold)
Ring of protection +1 (8000)
Bracers of Armor +3 (9000)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000)
Amulet of Mighty Fists (Flaming) (5000)
Headband of inspired Wisdom (4000)
Belt of Physical Perfection (Dex/Str/Con) +2 (16000)
Monk Robe
Immune to all diseases.
Wholeness of Body
Improved evasion
Slow Fall 40
Ki Pool of 10
Lowered the AoMF to just flaming and the Headband to +2, but added better bracers and a monk robe.
The Monk robe would actually increase attack bonus by one as well, as it is functionally giving me the enhancement bonus 5 levels earlier, given the change. So all of that goes up by one.
After I did that, I had 9000 left. So I upped the ring of protection to +2 (6000k) and will leave 3000 for misc.
With the changes:
AC is up to 25, so I now clear that one.
Attack bonus is up to 16 normal, 17 flurry.
High Damage is up to 60 now (2d6 + 8 with four attacks)
So the issue was actually I was over reaching for items I couldn't afford yet and not buying in my bracket.
A twofer lol.
@Dabbler: It looks good, the only big thing I see is that Improved Critical isn't a valid feat choice till 11th unless I am missing something. I'm at work, so I can't crunch numbers like I did with Ciretose's, but the AC looks about like what I would expect, same with the to hit. The stunning fist DC is iffy to me. With just a couple basic buffs, you get an extra +3-5 to hit, and your hit % goes up, so that 60% or better stun rate would kick in. Not sure that is an issue though, as it is limited usage and doesn't effect all creatures. Your making me rethink my point of view on wisdom to hit. I'll try and crunch numbers for it like I did for Ciretose's when I get home tonight.
@Ciretose: I like version 2 better. He is more well rounded, not so much sunk into an item or two. The boosts to hit combat stats by spreading that wealth around look good. But...
I have to ask, what role in the basic 4 would this guy fill? Not a tank, you said that yourself, not a caster, not enough points for skill monkey, Charisma is kinda low for the face...so...scout? Does he have the skill points to do that role well enough? Or is the point not to make a monk that fits in with the 4 person party concept but 5 person party concept? I'm asking, because it would help on how I evaluate the stuff.
I've got most of a build ready to go using the monk revision I did, as soon as I get time to post it I will, although it won't look as pretty as you two's
Good build. My concerns/suggestions
1. Stunning fist is a bit high. A 1 in 3 shot of making the enemy an unmoving target AND doing damage is higher than I personally would like.
2. Swap that +1 crossbow and amulet of natural armor for an AoMF and you can add at least another 1d6 of damage per hit. Or just add another +1 since the AoMF is going to stack with weapon training. This is where I get a bit concerned about attack bonus being a bit high.
3. Lose the monk robe and some savings from the above and you can get a belt (str dex or con) to help with other gaps.
I can see room to break this monk a bit with the stun lock. 1 in 3 seems to high to me, but maybe I am a bit to conservative.
Actually, I had the damage wrong, it should be 1d6+6 (+2 Str, +2 enhancement, +2 weapon training) so the damage should be 38 rather than 30.
1) I agree, but that's not an impossible to-hit for a martial class (10BAB + 1 WF + 3 enhancement + 7 attribute = +21). If you took out the Wis-to-hit then the accuracy would be as good but the DC would be only slightly lower. As such stunning fist is going to be better for any improvement in hitting.
The save stunning fist is the same average effect as, say, a hold person spell. The hold Person would have a slightly less save DC but could incapacitate for longer.
A CR10 creature is something you are not unlikely to run into several of at this level, and the monk should be able to handle one roughly 50% of the time. Looking at the stats the monk's lower hit points will really hurt him one-on-one as the attacker should hit him 60% of the time, meaning the monk will last three rounds, tops. The monk will take longer to hammer down the creature's HP, four rounds I would guess, so the monk will NEED one round of free attacks just to keep pace.
Comparing to a higher level target you would encounter one of, say a CR12, the attack would be only 65% to hit and 35% chance to fail gives 22.75%, which is right in the ballpark figure.
2. Every character should have a ranged attack. If this monk drops the AoNA he loses 2 points of AC he can ill afford, given the attacks on him. The +1 from an AoMF will not improve chances to hit (he has +2 natural enhancement) or damage. Properties on an AoMF would only add a conditional +1d6 damage, and I considered +2 AC at less cost much more of an improvement.
3. In actual fact I think dropping the monk's robe and taking a belt of physical perfection would be a better way to go all round. That would boost HP to 83, and damage by +1 (that will take damage to 42), sacrificing only a single point of AC.
The attack bonus on this build is maxed out as far as it can go, that's why I designed it this way to give the best odds on stunning fist as I could. I'm actually rather gratified it wasn't higher.
Personal choice.
You can ignore the modified +5 limit on the amulet of mighty fists, or the no full BAB for what is a fighting class, in your home game. Just as long as everyone at the table is ok with the homebrew rules. After all, magic weapons are limited to a modified +10.
If you want straight RAW, my ritual system does not conflict with any Pathfinder book I've seen.
@Dabbler: It looks good, the only big thing I see is that Improved Critical isn't a valid feat choice till 11th unless I am missing something.
Monk bonus feat at 10th level :)
I'm at work, so I can't crunch numbers like I did with Ciretose's, but the AC looks about like what I would expect, same with the to hit. The stunning fist DC is iffy to me. With just a couple basic buffs, you get an extra +3-5 to hit, and your hit % goes up, so that 60% or better stun rate would kick in. Not sure that is an issue though, as it is limited usage and doesn't effect all creatures. Your making me rethink my point of view on wisdom to hit. I'll try and crunch numbers for it like I did for Ciretose's when I get home tonight.
If you face the monk at the CR10 creature he actually needs that stunning fist, as his AC isn't so high and his HP are not so great that he can really afford to get along without it.
Re-factoring the build could get another +1 on AC by sacrificing strength for dexterity, but damage then drops by 2 per hit. Then the monk really is depending on stunning fist to deliver the goods.
|
|
I like how this conversation is going.
@Krigare - I don't really buy into the traditional 4. Where would the Bard or the inquisitor fit? Or even the Druid for that matter.
I think the goal for the monk is a tweener in the same vein as the bard or inquisitor. He can fight, he can scout, he is mobile and has maneuvers.
He isn't the "blocker" a tank is, but if he can stun and do damage, he certainly adds to combat. And out of combat, high perception mixed with high movement, mixed with high stealth (no armor check penalty...) means highly effective scout.
If you swapped out the monk I gave with a fighter, how the party fought/acted would change, but I don't know that the party would be less effective.
Put a monk in a group with a Bard, an Inquisitor and Rogue and a Magis and the roles are filled, with no one person fully filling the traditional roles.
That is where I see the monk.
As to the improvement, I was so focused on worrying if you could get AoMF early enough to cause problems that I tried to do just that...and failed.
Which is a good thing. So far the concern about AoMF is unfounded, while at the same time it has a real value to the monk. Same with the Monk Robe, albeit with the modification.
At this point thanks to the monk robe monk has a +3 flaming weapons, yet I don't think it appears to be overpowered in the general context.
@Dabbler: Doh, yeah, forgot that was added to the list at 10. Used to seeing Medusas Fist, specially on a stunning build.
Like I said, your making me rethink viewpoint that Wisdom to hit is to much for monks. I think stunning fist and the monks usage of it is something they bring to the table, if they could hit and get it off. Your Wisdom to Hit clearly boosts that, so I am starting to come around =)
@Ciretose: I don't believe in the classic 4, haven't in a long time, but I do think every class needs a role they fill well. But I also think that role needs to be big enough they can be used in a 4 person party. The core classes really need to meet that expectation. So does this monk tweak of yours allow for that? As a 5th party member he would do ok, but as one of the 4...not so sure.
Got my build done, just need to get time to post it.
@Dabbler: Doh, yeah, forgot that was added to the list at 10. Used to seeing Medusas Fist, specially on a stunning build.
Like I said, your making me rethink viewpoint that Wisdom to hit is to much for monks. I think stunning fist and the monks usage of it is something they bring to the table, if they could hit and get it off. Your Wisdom to Hit clearly boosts that, so I am starting to come around =)
I am not just a pretty face...OK, if you ask my ex-wife, she would say not even a pretty face, but I do think about these things carefully - and having been crunching the numbers for months, I am getting good at feeling for when things are about 'right'.
I also agree, the 'big four' roles are not essential to be filled by one character-per-role. You can fill each role twise with a 'half-and-half' class, and still have all your bases covered adequately. The monk, like several other classes, sits between the skills-monkey and the melee-hitter.
The one thing I consider that the monk lacks despite our changes is ranged facility. Every other class in the book has access to either spells or a bow. The monk still has neither...
@Dabbler: Doh, yeah, forgot that was added to the list at 10. Used to seeing Medusas Fist, specially on a stunning build.
Like I said, your making me rethink viewpoint that Wisdom to hit is to much for monks. I think stunning fist and the monks usage of it is something they bring to the table, if they could hit and get it off. Your Wisdom to Hit clearly boosts that, so I am starting to come around =)
I am not just a pretty face...OK, if you ask my ex-wife, she would say not even a pretty face, but I do think about these things carefully - and having been crunching the numbers for months, I am getting good at feeling for when things are about 'right'.
I also agree, the 'big four' roles are not essential to be filled by one character-per-role. You can fill each role twise with a 'half-and-half' class, and still have all your bases covered adequately. The monk, like several other classes, sits between the skills-monkey and the melee-hitter.
The one thing I consider that the monk lacks despite our changes is ranged facility. Every other class in the book has access to either spells or a bow. The monk still has neither...
Shuriken =p
Seriously though, they do get crossbows, and those aren't bad for a ranged weapon for a melee character, especially if the don't go the massive Strength route.That's one of the things I am starting to like about the Wisdom to hit, it doesn't remove the need for Strength if you want a Strength based build, but unlike Ciretose's idea, it won't impose a feat tax or leave you feeling subpar. It still leaves the monk MAD, but no more than a paladin.
Shurikens have a tiny range increment, and do very little damage. Crossbows are only good with a feat tax for Rapid Reload, otherwise even a light crossbow is one shot per round. Slings are OK but the same problem as for shuriken. I really question if monks shouldn't get proficiency with bows, at least as an option. It makes the Zen Archer make a lot more sense, if you think about it. No monks use bows except one that is suddenly awesome with them? <head-scratch>
And yes, strength and dexterity based builds are not invalidated by the wis-to-hit proposal. No existing monk builds are really effected in any way, save a few that suddenly get a bit better at hitting. If you gave out the free Weapon Finesse/Agile Maneuvers feats (another suggestion) those builds with them suddenly get two free feats, which could be a headache. This just gives monks another option at the creation stage.
|
|
A few problems with adding wisdom.
First, multiclass. Suddenly Clerics, Druids and Inquisitors are taking a dip level of Monk.
Second, you become so Wisdom focused that stunning fist becomes a SoS kind of attack.
Third, and most importantly at this point your unarmed strike is +19, not optimized. How much higher do you think it could go? Just using my original build the attack bonus would be I believe +22 since my strength is 3 higher and my wisdom is the same.
This is my concern, and respectfully not only don't think the Devs would let that much of a boost fly, I don't think they should let that high of a boost fly.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
True, most of a monks ranged weapons are either close in or not a high rate of fire. I don't think that conflicts with the class design though. They are high mobility, so closing range isn't a huge issue, and if it comes down to having to stand and fire over multiple rounds, I don't think the extra shots would do much when using a crossbow vs a bow. The monk, aside from Zen Archers aren't ranged attackers. Give them access to bows and all of a sudden you open up a whole different playstyle and balancing issue.
A few problems with adding wisdom.
First, multiclass. Suddenly Clerics, Druids and Inquisitors are taking a dip level of Monk.
Second, you become so Wisdom focused that stunning fist becomes a SoS kind of attack.
Third, and most importantly at this point your unarmed strike is +19, not optimized. How much higher do you think it could go? Just using my original build the attack bonus would be I believe +22 since my strength is 3 higher and my wisdom is the same.
This is my concern, and respectfully not only don't think the Devs would let that much of a boost fly, I don't think they should let that high of a boost fly.
Apologies on the double post.
I don't think you would see that Ciretose. Limit it to unarmed strikes and monk weapons. Not so good for the wisdom casters now.
As to the second, well...so every monk needs to pay a feat tax for dex, or stretch his stats across 4 of the 6? So strength monks still are the way to go then in your opinion? Or do you dislike that and just aren't sure of another option?
I think your to worried about the monk being subpar to every other class in the CRB man. No fighting as good as the full BAB classes, no skill ranks like the skill monkeys, and obviously they aren't casters so no worries there. It just seems...haphazard, maybe unfocused.
So here's a question Ciretose, in your view of the monk, do you see them as being able to fill a slot in a 4 man group(what the game is based around) or do you see them as being a good 5th? Like I said earlier, it would help me evaluate your monk idea on an even ground instead of my own ideas of where the monk fits in.
|
|
I think you are over valuing Dex. I got to 25 AC at 10th with a 14 Dex.
In the build I posted you would get a +10 from ability scores alone. That is too much.
As I said I think the build I posted could swap out for a fighter in a four man group about as well as a Bard could swap out for a rogue, a Magus could swap out for a wizard, or an inquisitor could swap out for a cleric.
As opposed to the fighter group, the group with the monk would be more mobile and much stealthier.
The only problem with the monk now is that it doesn't always have something it can do. At this point the monk I posted overcomes basically all DR (+3 enhancement) hits reliably and often for decent damage...
I think what I posted works nicely and would be hard to exploit.
I like what Dabbler posted, but I can see exploits and openings. I think it is fine for reasonable players, but a munckins wet dream.
A few problems with adding wisdom.
First, multiclass. Suddenly Clerics, Druids and Inquisitors are taking a dip level of Monk.
Why? Druids would want it with natural weapons, and it doesn't apply to natural weapons just monk weapons and unarmed strikes. Any druid or cleric is going to need decent physical stats to make the most of it, and as they are SAD this isn't actually a major impediment, so they are dipping levels and losing out on full spell-casting for just a +1 or +2 to hit until they get to fairly high levels, and even then they can make up the difference in other ways. Lastly, clerics can get it without dipping: Channel Smite followed by Guided Hand gives them Wis-to-hit with their deities favoured weapon. Why dip monk (and then have to get Crusader's Flurry for most weapons they would want to use) when you can spend two feats instead?
Second, you become so Wisdom focused that stunning fist becomes a SoS kind of attack.
No, it IS a SoS kind of attack. It just actually has a reasonable chance of working, on a par with a spell or SLA. I really do not see the issue with this when you have a magus that can let lose SoS attacks on this kind of scale with spell combat every round.
Third, and most importantly at this point your unarmed strike is +19, not optimized. How much higher do you think it could go? Just using my original build the attack bonus would be I believe +22 since my strength is 3 higher and my wisdom is the same.
How did you get a strength of 27 at 10th level? Max starting strength is 20, +4 belt, +2 levels and 26 is as far as you can go.
Wisdom at 24 for +7 to hit at 10th level is pretty darned optimised if you want other stats at anything reasonable. Add another +7 to hit from BAB, +2 enhancement, +2 weapon training, +1 feat. What else could you get? Well using existing monk with the bonus to hit only on enhancement and it would be +8 standard FoB, +7 wis, +3 enhancement, +1 feat, gives you +19 again.
You could probably max wisdom further but the most you could get is another +1 from initial scores (get 20 starting, you can't get a better headband as it breaks WBL guidelines at more than 50% WBL), and that would leave you struggling in other areas.
Plus, as demonstrated, the monk actually needs that stunning fist with his lower HP total to survive the fight. Once you start facing boss-fights the party have to face together, the chances start to drop fairly fast to the level you want or worse.
This is my concern, and respectfully not only don't think the Devs would let that much of a boost fly, I don't think they should let that high of a boost fly.
Well, if they don't want to fix the monk, maybe, but look what you are comparing the monk too with the same kind of stats and feats:
Full BAB classes hammering away at +21 to hit before applying their special bonuses (+22 if you max them out on strength) and dealing out damage per hit the monk can only dream of? 2d6+13 is usually just the starting damage before Power Attack and Furious Focus get applied (2d6+22 with them). You are easily talking double the monk's damage output before any special abilities are applied. That could be +6 to hit and +6 to damage for a ranger; +4 to hit and +4 to damage for a fighter; +3 to hit, +3 deflection AC and +10 damage bypassing all DR for a paladin. I won't even go there with the barbarian...A full BAB class could demolish the CR10 target in 2-3 rounds (2 rounds using their speciality, 3 without it). You are basically saying that the monk is broken because he could do it in four, with stunning fist playing a major role by robbing the target of one round's attacks that would otherwise kill the monk before he could finish the job.
I'm not seeing the problem myself.
I think you are over valuing Dex. I got to 25 AC at 10th with a 14 Dex.
For the hit points your (and my) monks have, that is not enough. I'd be looking at 28 as my target at this level.
In the build I posted you would get a +10 from ability scores alone. That is too much.
I disagree. The monk is a more fragile target than the full BAB classes, he needs that added AC and I don't see why he shouldn't get it.
The only problem with the monk now is that it doesn't always have something it can do. At this point the monk I posted overcomes basically all DR (+3 enhancement) hits reliably and often for decent damage...
First boss-fight I had with my last monk at 10th level was a devil with DR 10/good & cold iron. Your monk would be pretty nerfed trying to fight it.
I think what I posted works nicely and would be hard to exploit.
I like what Dabbler posted, but I can see exploits and openings. I think it is fine for reasonable players, but a munckins wet dream.
Show me them, with working please. Don't just make broad statements that declare you could do better by X points, I need to see the working on how you get more to hit, and how you get more damage without sacrificing AC so far your monk dies on round two.
|
|
Here are your additions
Unarmed strike is fixed at 1d6 base damage.
Wisdom modifier is used to hit with monk weapons and unarmed strikes.
Weapon training is gained at the same rate as a fighter, but only applying to monk weapons and unarmed strikes.
ki-strike is enhanced at +1 at 3rd level, +1/4 levels afterwards.
Flurry of blows is based on 3/4 BAB not full BAB & two weapon fighting.
DR bypass ability I have described elsewhere is part of the mechanics.
The monk's robe increases threat range by 2 rather than damage on unarmed strike (but this is applied after Improved Critical).
Looking at the build I posted, with the stats I posted.
Base is +7
Strength 20 is +5, always added to melee. 17
Wisdom 20 is +5, added in your build, now we are at 22
Weapon Training is +2 at 10th level, we are at +24
Enhancement bonus at 3rd and every 1/4 level after I believe will be +2, so we are at +26
I have weapon focus, so we are at +27.
And that is just converting my build to your format.
That is way to much, and that wasn't even me going munchkin.
Edit: That is auto hit on all but a 1 for that CR, adding with stunning working I believe 30% of the time.
Looks like the thread is back on the rails...
Anyway, instead of using wis-to-hit why not just give the monk full BAB back? In general, giving set level-dependent bonuses will always have fewer unintended consequences than x-to-y style abilities. If we're just scared of giving monks early access to high-BAB prereq feats then say they use full BAB for unarmed strike and monk weapons only.
Ok, home now so this will be easier. Just because I need to double check a couple things, I wanna post a 10th level fighter build.
Str 22 (10)(+2 racial, +2 level, +2 enhancement)
Dex 16 (5) (+2 enhancement)
Con 16 (5) (+2 enhancement)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 12 (0) (+2 enhancement)
Cha 10 (0)
AC 31 (Base 10 +11 armor +4 shield +3 Dex +1 Dodge +1 Deflection +1 Natural Armor)
HP 109 (+10 favored class bonus)
Init +7
Movement 30 ft
Attack +22 Longsword 1d8+13/19-20, when power attacking +19 Longsword 1d8+19
+15 Longbow 1d8+7
Fort +12 Ref +9 Will +9
Skills Perception +16 (10 ranks +6 feat) (20 ranks to spend)
Feats
1 Power Attack, Iron Will, Weapon Focus (longsword)
2 Cleave
3 Skill Focus (Perception)
4 Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
5 Dodge
6 Vital Strike
7 Lunge
8 Greater Weapon Focus (Longsword)
9 Toughness
10 Improved Initiative
Class Abilities: Bravery +3, Armor Training 2, Weapon Training (Heavy Blades +2, Bows +1)
Gear (62,000)
+2 Fullplate (5,650)
+2 large steel shield (4,370)
+1 Ring of Protection (2,000)
+3 Cloak of Resistance (9,000)
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor (2,000)
+2 Belt of Physical Perfection (16,000)
+2 Headband of Wisdom (4,000)
+2 Longsword (8,315)
Masterwork Composite Longbow (+6 Str Bonus) (1,000)
20 Arrows (1)
20 Cold Iron Arrows (2)
20 Silver Arrows (3)
Handy Haversack (2,000)
7,659 gold left for various consumables and other magic items.
So, here is a fighter, pretty standard sword and board stuff, not overly optimized.
And comparisions to the 2 monks already:
So, compared to Ciretose's more tanky build, he has 5 more AC and 21 more hit points. In terms of saves, the monk beats the fighter, although it is by a lower margin than you might expect.
His to hit is a full 6 points higher (only 5 when the monk flurries), with his minimum damage being 50% better, although their maximum is close, unless the fighter power attacks, at which point the fighters minimum damage is greater than the monks maximum. Even with the power attack penalty, his to hit his higher than the monks, they only get even if the monk can flurry and the fighter both power attacks and lunges at the same time.
When having to fight a mobile fight, between cleave and vital strike, the fighter has more options for what to do on his turn, although he cannot play hit and run with a monster, not that he really wants to anyway.
So, while the monk has some things the fighter can't match, like touch AC, speed, raw number of attacks on a full attack, I'd say overall that Ciretose's Monk is well below the actual fighter in combat performance. Enough so that I'd say he can't fill in? Not sure. My first instinct is to say yes, but more realistically is it just means that someone else in the party would have to take on the role of dealing and absorbing blows in melee, leaving the monk to skirmish and use what maneuvers he can get off. So that becomes a party composition thing, and this is just a martial to martial comparison.
So, in comparison to Dabblers monk, it is actually much closer. In some ways.
AC wise, the monk is 4 points below the fighter, and for hit points he is 36 points behind. In terms of saves, the fighter only does better in fort (again) and in the will save area gets put to shame.
Offensively, the fighter is ahead by a margin of +3 to hit with their favored attacks, but the damage for the monk is...well, the fighter doing minimum damage does more than the monk rolling maximum damage.
So, again, not as good as the fighter in any of the areas except saves, and in the damage department he is well outclassed by the fighter. Now, Dabblers monk pulls from non-core stuff and this is a CRB only fighter, but I think that illustrates the problem even more.
However, would Dabbler's monk make a good party member in a 4 person party? As a front liner, he is out. DPR isn't competitive there, and while the AC is solid, the HP makes it dangerous to get in and stay there. So...he wouldn't be a martial replacement, maybe a scout but this is more a comparison for the martial type slot.
So...neither will tread on a fighters toes. In one way or another, outside of saves, they come up short, by varying degrees in varying areas. Doesn't mean that can't fill a scout type role, but as a fighter alternate they aren't. And not saying that is bad, just an observation based on the comparison here.
And yes guys, I am getting mine up, I rethought a couple things, going to rework it and post it after this.
Here are your additions
Unarmed strike is fixed at 1d6 base damage.
Wisdom modifier is used to hit with monk weapons and unarmed strikes.
Weapon training is gained at the same rate as a fighter, but only applying to monk weapons and unarmed strikes.
ki-strike is enhanced at +1 at 3rd level, +1/4 levels afterwards.
Flurry of blows is based on 3/4 BAB not full BAB & two weapon fighting.
DR bypass ability I have described elsewhere is part of the mechanics.
The monk's robe increases threat range by 2 rather than damage on unarmed strike (but this is applied after Improved Critical).Looking at the build I posted, with the stats I posted.
Base is +7
Strength 20 is +5, always added to melee. 17
Wisdom 20 is +5, added in your build, now we are at 22
Weapon Training is +2 at 10th level, we are at +24
Enhancement bonus at 3rd and every 1/4 level after I believe will be +2, so we are at +26
I have weapon focus, so we are at +27.And that is just converting my build to your format.
That is way to much, and that wasn't even me going munchkin.
Edit: That is auto hit on all but a 1 for that CR, adding with stunning working I believe 30% of the time.
Um...he said use to Wis to hit, not Wis+Str to hit. Why are you double dipping on stats to hit?
|
|
@krigare - Because it isn't listed as either/or.
If the intent is to have it work like weapon finesse, I apologize but that wasn't clear to me.
You can still get nearly that high with just a pure wisdom focused build in the 22 to 24 range that would have an even higher stunning fist DC.
And again, a one level dip basically means wisdom casters will also have ridiculously high attack bonuses, in addition to boosts to all saves.
I think Dabbler adds to much and opens to exploit. I can post a 10th level build demonstrating it if you like in the morning, but at this point there are inherent bonuses from two areas (enhancement and weapon specialization) combined with reducing the need for strength to hit.
Even if I just make it wisdom and keep my str at 20 (which I wouldn't) I get to your fighters 22 to attack. So if I don't take Str to 20, how high can I get wisdom? The stat that also determines my stunning fist DC, how much Ki I have, and my AC.
I don't see that flying with the Devs.
Edit: I fail at math, I get to 19 (7 (base) +5 (wis) +2 (enhance) +2 (weapon spec) +2 (enhancement) +1 Focus, same as Dabbler.
I can get to 22 with a 26 wisdom, which would mean a save DC of 23, meaning 50/50 fail with nearly 100% hit.
OK, so, here are the revisions to the monk as they effect this, I'm working on redoing my revision so not a lot of point in linking the doc right now.
-At 9th level, the monk gains a +1 bonus to hit during a flurry, and gains an additional +1 (total of +2) at 14th level.
-(this replaces ki strike)
At 4th level, a monk can expend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to grant his unarmed attacks a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every three levels beyond 4th, his unarmed attacks gain another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 16th level. These bonuses stack with existing weapon enhancement’s to his unarmed attacks to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, flaming, flaming burst, frost, ghost touch, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, or speed.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any his unarmed strike already has, but duplicates do not stack. If his unarmed strikes do not have an enhancement bonus already, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the ki pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the monk uses this ability.
So, now, on to the monk himself. Again, like the fighter, limiting myself to core only, because if the foundation ain't solid, nothing makes it right.
Human Monk 10
Str 15 (3) (+2 enhancement)
Dex 20 (5) (+2 racial, +2 level, +2 enhancement)
Con 14 (2) (+2 enhancement)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 20 (10) (+4 enhancement)
Cha 10 (0)
AC 28 (base 10 +3 armor +5 Dex +5 Wis +2 class +1 dodge +2 deflection)
HP 88 (+10 favored class)
Init +5
Movement 60ft
Base Attack: +7/+2
Flurry Base Attack: +8/+8/+3/+3
Attack:
+16/+11 unarmed 1d10+3/20 (+7 base +2 class +5 dex +1 feat +1 enhancement)No ki strike
+19/+14 unarmed 1d10+6/20 (+7 base +2 class +5 Dex +1 Feat +4 enhancement) With Ki Strike
Can take a -2 to hit to add 4 to damage
Flurry:
+18/+18/+13/+13 1d10+3/20 No ki strike
+21/+21/+16/+16 1d10+6/20 Ki strike
Can take a -3 to hit to add 6 to damage
Fort +11 Ref +14 Will +14
Skills 10 ranks perception, 40 skill ranks to distribute
Feats
1 Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Toughness
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Power Attack
5 Agile Manuevers
6 Improved Trip
7 Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
9 Greater Trip
10 Spring Attack
Class Abilities: Flurry of blows, Stunning Fist (DC 20), Improved Evasion, Manuever Training, Still Mind, ki pool (10 points), Slow Fall 50 ft, high jump, purity of body, wholeness of body
Gear (62,000)
+4 Headband of Inspired Wisdom (16,000)
+2 Belt of Physical Perfection (16,000)
+3 Bracers of Armor (9,000)
+2 Cloak of Resistance (4,000)
+2 Ring of Protection (8,000)
+1 Amulet of Mighty Fists (5,000)
4,000 gold remaining for consumables misc magic items and adventuring gear.
Ok, so. There he goes.
The bestiary comparison thing:
Hit points 130 - 88, so short here
AC 24 - 28, with the ability to boost it to 32+, so good there
High Attack 18 - Using all the abilities, beat it by a point
Low attack 13 - Same with this one.
High damage 45 - Not sure on calculating this one or the low damage.
Low damage 33 - See Above
Primary save 19 - At a 20 so ok there
Secondary Save 13 - Heh, no secondaries to save
Good save 13 - I have 2 at +14 so good
Bad save 9 - Fort is at +11, so good there
Now, for the 5 questions:
1.Should be able to hit with a primary attack more than 50% but less than 75%
CR 10 on average is 24, so I hit, on avarage 60% of the time without using ki. Using ki, I hit 75% of the time. Flurry is better, at 70% to hit without ki, or 85% to hit when using ki.
2.Stunning fist should work more than 10% but less that 25%
I will be lazy and let someone else figure that one out exactly. My brain is starting to hurt.
3.AC should be greater than the Bestiary averages (it is a melee class)
I beat that, by 4 points before I consider boosts from ki or any other sources.
4.DPR should be greater than the average ¾ caster class wading into melee but less than the average Martial Class (we can discuss what these exact numbers are, but again, just looking for consensus)
Well, considering the fighter above, I think he is under on the damage bar for the fighter. Fighter gets 1d8+13 as his base, versus my 1d10+3(6 with ki), so I don't get close to his damage potential per hit, even if I can match his accuracy. On the other hand, if I can set up a flurry situation I start getting in the ballpark, but still under what he can do.
5.All of this should be able to be accomplished unarmored and unarmed.
Check.
So. Pick it over. Rip it apart. Tell me what ya see good/bad/otherwise. I built this guy rather generically, but I also did him Dex based, since we don't have one up yet. As a Str based monk, the damage numbers would shift a few points higher, but that isn't hard to calculate.
Keep in mind also your fighter has bonuses other martial classes don't in the form of weapon specialization and greater weapon focus.
Other martial classes are generally going to be around 20 attack bonus, I believe. But correct me if I am wrong.
Depends. A barbarian isn't to far behind a fighter in a rage. Assuming he has weapon focus, it is a 1 point boost in the fighters favor to hit and damage at this level. At level 11 it ends up tied. After 12 it goes back to the fighter and stays that way, but only with the fighters weapon of choice, and not all fighters take the specific weapon feats.
Rangers are a step behind except vs favored enemies. Against them the fighter gets to work at it if he wants to keep up.
Paladins...well, against evil...really. I mean. Its the paladins thing. Outside of evil, they are 2-3 points behind at this level, except for the divine weapon bond can even that out fast.
So that is why I did fighter for a martial comparison. They are the gold standard of martial ability, even for the people who wouldn't want to play one.
Sarvain, our issue is not that anyone can't house-rule in a change to the monk, because they can. Problem is that unlike ten years ago, there is a lot more requirement for things to standardise. I can't go to a group and say "I want to use my version of the monk" if I'm not the DM. I certainly cannot do so in a PFS game, and the 'standardised' type of game like PFS is becoming more common these days.
When I started playing D&D back in the later 70's every game was a massively house-ruled home-brew, and we all had the time to write meticulous campaigns off our own bat. That's now changed, gamers seem to have less time to home-brew, and less inclination to house-rule, especially with programs like HeroLab doing the heavy-lifting for them that have to run on standard. People are expecting to pick-up-and-play a campaign - that's why the adventure paths sell so well.
Hence game mechanics need to be better balanced from the outset. The PF monk isn't, it's behind the curve.
PS - not forgotten those test builds. Will be posting one soon.
I agree with your post, but I would hope the philosophy and goal for the future of PF does not include making a video game for tabletop like 4th ed D&D. I was sorely disappointed with that system after having played 3.5. It seems like a lot of the gamers now lose sight of the whole point to table top roleplaying games to begin with. The main point being to roleplay a character concept you have. PF has done a really nice job so far of helping balance classes and giving more options to those classes. I say to all the people who playtest or develop it kudos, but good luck on balancing standardized martial/melee classes with spellcasters. That has been a losing battle for a long while now. The only way I have ever found to balance such is by home-brew. You simply can do more with magic than you can a weapon or with your hands. I guess if things go south with PF there is always Hero; I get tired of running something with that much math fairly quick. Or I will simply do what I am doing now and play an amalgamation of 3.0, 3.5, and PF.
Here are your additions
Unarmed strike is fixed at 1d6 base damage.
Wisdom modifier is used to hit with monk weapons and unarmed strikes.
Weapon training is gained at the same rate as a fighter, but only applying to monk weapons and unarmed strikes.
ki-strike is enhanced at +1 at 3rd level, +1/4 levels afterwards.
Flurry of blows is based on 3/4 BAB not full BAB & two weapon fighting.
DR bypass ability I have described elsewhere is part of the mechanics.
The monk's robe increases threat range by 2 rather than damage on unarmed strike (but this is applied after Improved Critical).Looking at the build I posted, with the stats I posted.
Base is +7
Strength 20 is +5, always added to melee. 17
Sorry if I did not make it clear enough, but it's Wisdom INSTEAD of strength or Dexterity. If you check the math on my build posted you will see that it's what I did, or else the build would be +2 up!
I agree with your post, but I would hope the philosophy and goal for the future of PF does not include making a video game for tabletop like 4th ed D&D. I was sorely disappointed with that system after having played 3.5. It seems like a lot of the gamers now lose sight of the whole point to table top roleplaying games to begin with. The main point being to roleplay a character concept you have. PF has done a really nice job so far of helping balance classes and giving more options to those classes. I say to all the people who playtest or develop it kudos, but good luck on balancing standardized martial/melee classes with spellcasters. That has been a losing battle for a long while now. The only way I have ever found to balance such is by home-brew. You simply can do more with magic than you can a weapon or with your hands. I guess if things go south with PF there is always Hero; I get tired of running something with that much math fairly quick. Or I will simply do what I am doing now and play an amalgamation of 3.0, 3.5, and PF.
I hope they don't go that way either. On the flip side, that does not mean that the video game mechanics do not have something to teach us at the tabletop.
That said, I think the important thing in a party is not power or role but spotlight time. It doesn't matter if one class can do more than another class, as long as each class can contribute by doing something important.
It doesn't matter if Schrodinger's Wizard can apparently do everything to a greater or lesser degree, what matters is that Fred the Fighter is the best at dishing hurt to the enemy and Schrodinger is better off letting him get on with that, and even using his magic to enable him to get on with that. As this is an important thing to be doing, Fred gets spotlight time.
The problem with the monk is his inability to contribute effectively in any of the roles.
|
|
@dabbler I messed up the math on critique, so no worries :)
@Krigare - The max damage as I've been doing it is the average damage if all of your attacks hit in a normal full attack. I don't know if that is correct, but given the number of attacks, it seems a reasonable benchmark.
For your monk that would be 1d10 (so 5.5) + 3 * 4 or 32. It goes up with Ki burn to 44. But you also hit more often than my build, so I'm not that worried.
As to the idea. I like them conceptually, but they seem to require a lot of table math. Do I have Ki Up, how many ki points do I have left, how much is this weapon property, is it plus 2 now out of a flurry...there is a lot to keep track of IMHO.
I think the monk you posted works. It is a bit behind on damage, but that could be more because it went with a Dex rather than strength build. It could also be the nature of the build, as you are going to have to spend a lot of ki on a regular basis.
I don't see as much room for exploit as I think Dabbler's build has, but I think it would take a certain kind of player to be able to keep track of everything at a given time. I also am having trouble getting my head around all of the various interactions, so there may be exploit room.
This is where a Ravingdork would be useful in attempting to "break" these builds.
To sum up what I think has been discussed so far, at least from my point of view.
You two think my idea does not add enough, as is.
I think Dabblers ideas add too much and as a result they are a bit open to exploit.
I think Krigare's ideas are a bit top complicated and require the player to keep track of too many changing variables.
Like we were ever likely to completely agree ;)
I will add, though, that I do think Kirgare's build adds too much complexity to ki. It's used for a lot of things, I really wouldn't like to see what should be a dependable fall-back option (hitting things) depend on it too, and your design pretty much does.
I agree, we need somebody who can 'break' builds to take a look at our ideas. I'd like to see where my ideas can be exploited; I'm not buying that they open to 'caster abuse' as that ship has already sailed with Guided Hand. I'm also not worried about stunning fist being too effective - I just don't see how something that barely lets you win a fight another melee class can cake-walk is a problem. It's an issue in 'boss-fights' but their higher ACs and saves cut this right back very quickly.
Yeah, my idea adds something to keep track of, but no more than a paladin(lay on hands, spells, divine bond, smite), a barbarian (rage rounds, rage powers) or a ranger (favored enemy, spells, favored terrain) so I'm not sure what the problem is. You spend 1 ki if you want the enhancement and it lasts 10 rounds. It isn't like you track it round by round. No more, or less than buffs cast, or a bard handing bonuses out.
But, that's me. As to being able to break builds, I can do that. Bit of a busy day today so can't promise I will get to it today, but I will see what I can do cracking the books open.
It's not that other classes don't have things to track, Krigare. It's that they track simple things: Rage has one use, spending rounds of rage. Same with bardic performance. The only class with as many use for their points is the magus, and that has only a few: enhancing their weapon and recalling spells.
That said, your enhancement isn't adding any more than my DR-bypass option. The difference is that you NEED that enhance every combat - it's just not in real terms optional.
|
|
What Dabbler said.
Let us all be clear. I think we all agree that each of the builds posted has good things, and that these things represent an improvement over the class as is.
And I think each of us have posted clear suggestions, backed up by builds that provide food for thought for the Devs
That makes this thread 1000 times more productive than most monk threads.
We are beating each other up on the margins, but I think we've made a very strong case that giving a monk some way to add bonuses to his to unarmed attacks isn't going to break the class, even if it is given for free and even if it stacks with AoMF.
We are skinning the same cat with different knives, but we've demonstrated it doesn't seem to create UBER monk when you do so.
Unless someone comes in and shows how these can be broken, which I would welcome as long as it doesn't involve non-existent items and genie binding.
@ Dabbler - Where I shined was battlefield control and being self-sufficient (while others were dependent on armor, magic items, and weapons I was not), but I was specifically built for the battlefield controller function. I know with cmb and cmd it isn't as easy to disable or disarm everyone around you now. Mobility is the whole point to the class in my opinion. I would worry less about straight damage buffs and more about accentuating what the monks do best - strike and move. I do like the idea of giving them choices in enhancements to their unarmed strikes as you guys are working on. I wouldn't make it ki dependent. It would be more akin to the soulknife in my mind.
If it were up to me I would give monk's spring attack for free. Dodge and mobility have always seemed like wastes of feats. Now give me a +3 dodge AC bonus to someone I focus on and I am listening, or simply give me a +1 dodge bonus to AC that requires nothing further than buying the feat and I am listening. There are too many feats that do way more than what those two do, currently. They only serve as placeholders to get spring attack.
I think monks should have more damage options with their ki. Like a stomp type effect, from the psionic power. Or perhaps a ki burst that functions like an area effect spell centered on the monk. I think the ki choices now are nice and simple, but thinking of what martial artists have done and can do in this world, if you believe any of the legends, it is just the tip of the iceberg to what a monk should be able to do.
@Ciretose - Absolutely in agreement.
How about we take a peek at some of the monk's minor issues now? Like the move/flurry problem, wholeness of body and others? To my mind the issues that remain are:
Flurry and fast movement effectively oppose one another, and without flurry at high level the BAB on single attacks drops. Does this need addressing?
Wholeness of body has all the usefulness of drinking a single potion, at a horrible consumption of a valuable resource. Should this be made more useful in some way?
Diamond Soul is as much a hindrance as a help. Alternatives?
@Sarvain - monks can get Spring Attack as a bonus feat without the requirements of Dodge and Mobility in Pathfinder. The battlefield control option is a good one, and I tried it but the problems with it are that it's too feat intensive, takes too long to get any good at, your control options are shut down in some cases, and it's too situational. At the end of the day, a wizard spell does the same as all those feats, and does it better.
|
|
Rolling with Revan's suggestions from way back:
I'd go one step further and include some means for the mnnk to perform the enhancement himself, through an equivalent cost in incense, books/scrolls of martial/ascetic wisdom, and so forth to be used in enhancing rituals.
That way, when the monk is punching and kicking with fists and legs awash with holy flame, it's because of something the monk did through his own enlightenment rather than having to thank a wizard for being so awesome.
I think what we are seeing so far in the builds is that even if you give the monk that enhancement for free (which is the only change in my build) it doesn't cause any real issues.
I don't think anyone is saying either of by builds are overpowered, or can be exploited to be broken, and that was the only change.
Yes, the "tank" functionally has +3 flaming weapons, but he still hits at a significantly lower rate for less damage than the sword and board fighter of the same level posted.
@ Dabbler - I meant spring attack from the beginning, but yeah I do like the change with that being a bonus feat at 10th. Spell resistance is a hindrance. How I got around it with one of my homebrewed warlock invocations was to allow for spell resistance to be dropped as a free action and then as an immediate action once the higher invocation was learned. Haven't play-tested that as of yet. Hopefully my warlock player takes the invocation.
|
|
@ Dabbler - I meant spring attack from the beginning, but yeah I do like the change with that being a bonus feat at 10th. Spell resistance is a hindrance. How I got around it with one of my homebrewed warlock invocations was to allow for spell resistance to be dropped as a free action and then as an immediate action once the higher invocation was learned. Haven't play-tested that as of yet. Hopefully my warlock player takes the invocation.
I think this is another common sense "fix" the devs will implement.
I would bet most people play this way, regardless. Enforcing it is just one of those things rules lawyers tend to cite to make themselves feel smart.