Is this a flank.


Rules Questions


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I am of the opinion that this is a flank, because it crosses one of the corners of the enemy's square. My player is saying technically it isn't (though he's happy to concede because the players are the ones flanking). I thought I would get clarification. Is this flanking?

Battle Map


Nope.


No, only exact opposite positioning is flanking. One of the two characters would need to move to the right one square.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It is not a flank as it doesn't cross opposite corners, it would have to cut the square from corner to corner, I predict in a few minutes someone will post the exact page in the rules as well.

Silver Crusade

Nope, draw a line center mass to center mass - does the line cross two opposite sides of the opponent? If no, then it is not flanking. Also handy to remember when you get into large or bigger creatures, as well as reach...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

"When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner."

It's neither opposite corner or opposite border, so no flank there.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Vakil Smallen wrote:
I am of the opinion that this is a flank, because it crosses one of the corners of the enemy's square.

If "crosses one of the corners of the enemy's square" were the requirement to get a flank, you'd be set. But it's not. :P


That's not a flank. For it to be flanking, the two allies would have to be exactly across from each other, so either the one at the top needs to move a square to the right so they have a vertical flank (based on screenshot orientation), or the one at the bottom needs to move a square to the right so they have a diagonal flank. Flanking requires perfect opposites.


Shane Weber wrote:
It is not a flank as it doesn't cross opposite corners, it would have to cut the square from corner to corner, I predict in a few minutes someone will post the exact page in the rules as well.

It's on page 197 of the Core Rulebook.

It also notes that if something has greater than 5 feet of reach, it can be flanking while not adjacent as long as the threatened square has one of its allies on the exact opposite side/corner.


in your example, one of the 2 people trying to flank would have to 5foot step 1 square to the right, while the other stayed where he was. in either of those situations they would be flanking.

also note that on large+ sized creatures, the only square that flanks the corner of that creature is the corner on the opposite side, while all of the non-corner sides will flank all the others on the opposite side.

for example on a colossal creature (6 squares X 6 squares) if 1 person was standing on one non-corner side of it, then that person could flank for all 6 other people standing on the opposite non-corner side of the creature, one per non-corner square on the opposite side.

but if that one person was standing at the corner of that colossal creature, the only square that would get a flank from him would be the corner opposite the one he was standing.

Scarab Sages

One extra note: if the top guy had a reach weapon he could flank if he was one square up from where he is (and also the 2 squares to the right if that space) since that positioning would make the line between the space centers pass through the corner on the top side and the bottom side.

XOO
OOO
OBO
OXO


Huh. I have always considered that to be a flank. I'm quite surprised by the overwhelming opposite response to the OP's question.

PRD wrote:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

I have always considered the "opposite border or opposite corner" in the above sentence to mean the other person could either be on the opposite border, or on the opposite corner. And in both cases, you would get a flanking bonus.

I suppose I'll have to try to unlearn that.

Dark Archive

From the PRD:

Image on flanking

the OP's situation is very close to the position for the rogue and fighter who are not flanking.


Are wrote:
I have always considered the "opposite border or opposite corner" in the above sentence to mean the other person could either be on the opposite border, or on the opposite corner. And in both cases, you would get a flanking bonus.

The key is that you don't have an "opposite corner" unless you're already in a corner.

Scarab Sages

mplindustries wrote:
Are wrote:
I have always considered the "opposite border or opposite corner" in the above sentence to mean the other person could either be on the opposite border, or on the opposite corner. And in both cases, you would get a flanking bonus.
The key is that you don't have an "opposite corner" unless you're already in a corner--same with "opposite side."

Except you do in the example I provided when reach comes into play. The line after the one Are quoted from the PRD describes why this is true. Sorry I don't quote it, difficult posting from my phone.


Actually, the battle map picture you provided already disproves your flanking theory.
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Draw a line from the center of any one of the squares you occupy to the center of any one square your buddy occupies (In the case of medium or small creatures, 'any one' equaly your very square).

This has already been done in your picture; it is the red line.

Now, does this line cross opposite borders, or opposite corners of the area the opponent is occupying? If so, you have a flank.

In your example, however, the line is crossing the lower, and the left border of the enemy's square. Which are not opposing one another.

So: sorry, no flank today.


mplindustries wrote:
Are wrote:
I have always considered the "opposite border or opposite corner" in the above sentence to mean the other person could either be on the opposite border, or on the opposite corner. And in both cases, you would get a flanking bonus.
The key is that you don't have an "opposite corner" unless you're already in a corner.

By my line of thinking (which is apparently wrong), I considered the two corners along the opposite border to be the "opposite corners".

Scarab Sages

Are wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Are wrote:
I have always considered the "opposite border or opposite corner" in the above sentence to mean the other person could either be on the opposite border, or on the opposite corner. And in both cases, you would get a flanking bonus.
The key is that you don't have an "opposite corner" unless you're already in a corner.

By my line of thinking (which is apparently wrong), I considered the two corners along the opposite border to be the "opposite corners".

Your thinking is correct in that the two corners opposite of a side qualify for flanking. However, it doesn't matter whatthough sides/corners you touch to determine flanking. What matters are the points where an invisible linefrom your character's centerpoint (which is not a grid intersection) to the Ally's centerpoint. If this line crosses opposite sides or corners (or 1 side and 1 corner that are on opposite sides of the flanked creature) then you are flanking.

For a large creature (as a flanker, not being flanked) you can choose the center or any grid space. Example: a large creature chooses any of his 4 spaces and draws the line from the center of that square.

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