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"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 5th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)
Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:20
Cha:5AC: 19
20 (Using Dodge)
23 (Versus Giants)
24 (Using Dodge vs Giants)HP: 5d8 + 10
Spd: 30
Fort: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +9 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)Attack: Flurry: +7/+7/Spend a Ki Point for another +7: 1d8 + 3
Shortswords: +7/+7 Spend Ki Point +7: 1d6 +3Feats: Scorpion Style, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 17 2/day (Fatigued), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic), Slow Fall 20ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity,
Skills: Acrobatics: +7, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +10, Sense Motive: +10, Stealth: +7, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +1, Masterwork Cold Iron Shortsword, Masterwork Silver Shortsword.I spent my stat increase on Int so he can take the Combat Expertise feats. Also, this is just a standard build using the main book. This character may not be the best but he's not useless. I've been looking over creatures around this PC's level and he can hit.
1. So your starting build was Str 14 (5 pts), Dex 14 (5 pts), Con 12 (2 pts) +2 racial, Int 12 (2 pts), Wis 16 (10 pts) +2 racial, Cha 7 (-4 pts) -2 racial, resulting in scores of Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 5. Okay. That is not a bad array, but you definately aren't going to be the party face.
2. Your AC is 20 (including dodge). Not horrible, but a sword & board fighter or cavalier will be in full-plate with heavy shield by this level, for an AC of 21 pre-magic (presuming a Dex of 12). Barbarians and rangers will probably be in breastplate at...
Problem.
If I wanted to do what a fighter does or what a Cavalier etc can do then I would play those classes. I'm not trying to achieve a magic number, I'm playing a Monk because I want to play a Monk.
Level 6, 20pb challenge? Quick and messy:
Half-Orc Qigong Monk 6
Str 22
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 7
HP: 6d8+18 (If average of 6.5 for 2-6, then 58)
AC: 21-24 (4 armor, 2 dex, 2 wis, 1 monk, 1 dodge, 1 deflection, 3 natural if spending ki. By level 6, I am assuming someone can cast mage armor on him reliably, or at least use the wand)
Saves: F+8/R+9/W+9
MW Cold Iron Greataxe: +11 (1d12+15) or (3d6+16 if enlarged)
Flurry of Blows: +10/+8/+3 (1d8+10) or (2d6+11 if enlarged)
Feats: Power Attack, Dodge, Toughness, Improved Grapple, Furious Focus,
Stunning Fist
Skills: Acrobatics+16/+30, Climb+10, Perception+16, Sense Motive+6, Stealth+7, Swim+10
Qigong to replace slow fall for Barkskin.
Sacred Tattoo and Rock Climber racial traits.
Loot: Belt of strong+2, MW Coldiron Greataxe, Ring+1, Cloak+1, Wand of Mage Armor (for a party member who can shoot it off before entering the danger zone), Boots of Elvenkind, Eyes of the Eagle, potions of enlarge person and various other stuff for the remainder of the money
Runs around trying to flank before swatting stuff with his axe when he is reduced to one attack, and does a flurry of kicks when he is not, trying to stun on the +10 attack, so the remaining two can hit easier. If he spots a wizard on the ground, he grabs it and shakes it around until it stops being OP.
Not a great character, but works well enough. Not a finesse monk, but then again, there was talk about making the monk "useful", so...
Edit: Forgot traits. Lemme see... Honored Fist and... err... whatever else might be good. No idea. Something that makes a save go up.
And to beat a dead dwarf a little harder, here is a list of CR4 critters that a 5th level character should be able to solo with average difficulty (APL of four 5th level characters is 5, three or less is minus 1, so 4). He might well win in some fights, but some he simply cannot. Others he will have have a fairly easy time off, but some will having him on the verge of dropping and luck will determine who falls first.
With the stats given above for Shallowsoul's monk, he has an AC of 20 (24 vs. giants) with an attack bonus of +7 (1d6+3 short sword or 1d8+3 unarmed strike) and a flurry attack bonus of +7/+7 (1d8+3 unarmed strike). His saves are Fort +6, Ref +6, and Will +9, with 36 hit points. His CMB is +8 (Maneuver training subs his class level for BAB, +3 Str), while his CMD is 22.
How does that match up with a CR4 opponent? This should be an average difficulty encounter for one character to take on.
Barghest: AC 17, hp 45, Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +7, DR 5/magic, speed 30', bite +10 (1d6+4), 2 claws +10 (1d4+4). Spell-like abilities: at will (blink, levitate, misdirection), 1/day (charm monster (DC16), crushing despair (DC16), dimension door). CMB +10, CMD 22 (24 vs. trip). Can change shape (goblin or wolf) at will.
Bison: AC 17, hp 42, Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +1, speed 40', gore +10 (2d6+12). CMB +12, CMD 22 (26 vs. trip). Trample (2d6+12).
Darkstalker: AC 18, hp 39, Fort +4, Ref +9, Will +2, light blindness, speed 30', 2 short swords +6/+6 (1d6+2 plus poison), sneak attack +3d6. Spell-like abilities: at will (deeper darkness, detect magic, fog cloud). CMB +6, CMD 20. Death throes (3d6 fire, 20' burst, DC 15 Ref half), See in Darkness (perfect).
Dire Boar: AC 15, hp 42, Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +2, speed 40', gore +8 (2d6+9). CMB +10, CMD 20. Ferocity.
Dire Wolverine: AC 16, hp 42, Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +2, speed 30', climb 10', 2 claws +6 (1d8+4), bite +6 (1d6+4), RAGE (auto if it takes damage). CMB +8, CMD 21 (25 vs trip).
Gargoyle: AC 16, hp 42, Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +6, DR 10/magic, speed 40', fly 60' (average), 2 claws +7 (1d6+2), bite +7 (1d4+2), gore +7 (1d4+2). CMB +7, CMD 19.
Giant Stag Beetle: AC 17, hp 45, Fort +7, Ref +2, Will +2, immune to mind-affecting, speed 20', fly 20' (poor), bite +8 (2d8+6). Trample (1d6+6, DC 17). CMB +10, CMD 20 (28 vs. trip).
Gray Ooze: AC 5, hp 50, Fort +9, Ref -4, Will -4, speed 10', slam +6 (1d6+4 plus 1d6 acid plus grab), constrict (1d6+1 plus 1d6 acid). CMB +6 (+10 grapple), CMD 11 (cannot be tripped).
Griffon: AC 17, hp 42, Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +4, speed 30', fly 80' (average), bite +8 (1d6+3), 2 talons +7 (1d6+3), pounce, rake (2 claws +7, 1d4+3). CMB +9, CMD 21 (25 vs trip).
Grizzly Bear: AC 16, hp 42, Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +2, speed 40', 2 claws +7 (1d6+5 plus grab), bite +7 (1d6+5). CMB +9 (+13 grapple), CMD 20 (24 vs trip).
Harpy: AC 16, hp 38, Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +6, speed 20', fly 80' (average), morningstar +8/+3 (1d8+1), 2 talons +3 (1d6). CMB +8, CMD 21. Flyby Attack, Captivating Song (Will DC 16 negates).
Hound Archon: AC 19, hp 39, Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +5, DR 10/evil, immune to electricity, petrification, SR 15, speed 40', bite +8 (1d8+3), slam +8 (1d4+1) or masterwork greatsword +9/+4 (1d8+2) AND bite +3 (1d8+2). Spell-like abilities: constant (detect evil, magic circle against evil), at will (aid, continual flame, greater teleport, message). CMB +8, CMD 18. Change Shape (at will).
Hydra: AC 15, hp 47, fast healing 5, Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +3, speed 20', swim 20', 5 bites +6 (1d8+3), reach 10', pounce. CMB +10, CMD 21 (cannot be tripped). LOTS OF SPECIALS: SEE BESTIARY FOR DETAILS. NOTE: I think the Hydra is a REALLY strong CR4 and cannot be soloed by any 5th level character.
Janni: AC 20, hp 39, Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +4, resist fire 10, speed 30', fly 15' (perfect), scimitar +9/+4 (1d6+4), composite longbow +8/+3 (1d8+3). Spell-like abilities: 3/day (invisibility, plane shift, speak with animals), 1/day (create food and water, ethereal jaunt). CMB +9, CMD 22. Change size (2/day, Fort DC 13 negates, as enlarge person or reduce person).
Mimic: AC 16, hp 52, Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +6, immune acid, speed 10', slam +10 (1d8+6 plus adhesive). CMB +9, CMD 20 (cannot be tripped). Constrict (1d8+6).
Minotaur: AC 14, hp 45, Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +5, speed 30', greataxe +9/+4 (3d6+6/x3) and gore +4 (1d6+4), reach 10'. CMB +11, CMD 21. Powerful charge (+11, 2d6+6 gore).
Otyugh: AC 17, hp 39, Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +6, speed 20', bite +7 (1d8+4 plus disease), 2 tentacles +3 (1d6+2 plus grab), reach 10' (15' with tentacle). CMB +9 (+13 grapple), CMD 19 (21 vs trip).
Owlbear: AC 15, hp 47, Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +2, speed 30', 2 claws +8 (1d6+4 plus grab), bite +8 (1d6+4). CMB +10 (+14 grapple), CMD 21 (25 vs trip).
Pixie: AC 18, hp 18, Fort +2, Ref +9, Will +6, invisibility, DR 10/cold iron, SR 15, speed 20', fly 60' (good), longbow +8 (1d6-2), short sword +8 (1d4-2). Spell-like abilities: constant (detect chaos, evil, good, law), 1/day (dancing lights, detect thoughts (DC 15), dispel magic, entangle (DC 14), lesser confusion (DC 14), permanent image (DC 19), shield). SPECIAL ARROWS: SEE BESTIARY FOR DETAILS.
Rhinocero: AC 16, hp 42, Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +2, speed 40', gore +8 (2d6+9). CMB +10, CMD 20 (24 vs. trip). Powerful charge (gore +10, 4d6+12).
Satyr: AC 17, hp 44, Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +8, DR 5/cold iron, speed 40', dagger +6 (1d4+2), horns +1 (1d6+1), short bow +6 (1d6). Spell-like abilities: at will (charm person (DC 15), dancing lights, ghost sound (DC 14), sleep (DC 15), suggestion (DC17)), 1/day (fear (DC 18), summon nature's ally III). Pipes (DC 18 Will save negates, 60' radius, charm person, fear, sleep, or suggestion).
Sea Hag: AC 16, hp 38, Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +5, speed 30', swim 40', 2 claws +8 (1d6+4). CMB +8, CMD 21. Evil Eye, Horrific Appearance (see BESTIARY for details).
Tiger: AC 14, hp 45, Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3, speed 40', 2 claws +10 (1d8+6 plus grab), bite +9 (2d6+6 plus grab), pounce, rake (2 claws +10, 1d8+6). CMB +11 (+15 grapple), CMD 23 (27 vs. trip).
Yeti: Ac 17, hp 45, Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +6, immune cold, vulnerable fire, speed 40', climb 30', 2 claws +9 (1d6+4 plus 1d6 cold), reach 10', rend (2 claws 1d6+6 plus 1d6 cold). CMD +11, CMD 22. Cold aura (1d6 cold damage to anyone who hits the yeti with natural attack or unarmed strike). Frightful gaze (DC 13 Will, paralyzed 1 round, save negates).
Problem.
If I wanted to do what a fighter does or what a Cavalier etc can do then I would play those classes. I'm not trying to achieve a magic number, I'm playing a Monk because I want to play a Monk.
Then what do you want your monk to achieve? None of us are saying that monk's do not have a lot of RP flavour, because they do. Many of us are complaining because the monk's crunch doesn't meet the fluff. What we are saying is that mechanically they lack focus, and their stated combat role is one they cannot achieve easily, if at all in many cases.
So, you say you don't want your monk to be a fighter. That's cool, monks are not fighters. Problem is, your monk has to be able to fight, and he isn't actually very good at it compared to another combat class (or even a flanking rogue). So what else is he doing? He's not a very good scout, and while his saves are good they are not outstanding. Besides, good saves don't win fights on their own.
So, Mr Monk, if you want to join our adventuring company, what can you bring to the party?
Edit:
I have always seen the Monk as the 5th or 6th character that adds just a little something extra and a little something different.
Like what? From what I can see, he doesn't bring anything to the party another class couldn't bring better.
Edit Edit:
What happens in a four-player game if you want to play a monk?
That Monk I posted was just the run of the mill character.
This Monk can still contribute in a party and that is all some people, that I know, care about.
I have always seen the Monk as the 5th or 6th character that adds just a little something extra and a little something different.
The point is a monk is struggling to add anything to a party of four that another character class cannot do better.
MA
Where has the OP gone?
He left yesterday to roll up a CAGM barb. Haven't seen him since.
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That Monk I posted was just the run of the mill character.
This Monk can still contribute in a party and that is all some people, that I know, care about.
I have always seen the Monk as the 5th or 6th character that adds just a little something extra and a little something different.
The point is a monk is struggling to add anything to a party of four that another character class cannot do better.
MA
I don't think you are understanding where I am coming from.
Wizards and Clerics bring something different to a party. A Monk is not a front runner class like the classic Wizard, Fighter, Cleric, and Rogue. I don't think the class was designed that way. Honestly, when you have the classic four in a party you don't need a Paladin, or Ranger or even Sorcerer.
The Monk gives a party an extra set of damage or an extra set of skills and I think it was designed that way.
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And to beat a dead dwarf a little harder, here is a list of CR4 critters that a 5th level character should be able to solo with average difficulty (APL of four 5th level characters is 5, three or less is minus 1, so 4). He might well win in some fights, but some he simply cannot. Others he will have have a fairly easy time off, but some will having him on the verge of dropping and luck will determine who falls first.
Using your methodology, playing any class apart from Wizard is pointless, because he can solo 90% of that list using fly :)
I'm kicking around the spreadsheet now...Here's the macro code if you want to make your own copy to play with. It's highly.... not optimal (don't judge me!) but it works.
** spoiler omitted **
Is this for excel?
I have a DPR spreadsheet. Thanks Tejon.
That Monk I posted was just the run of the mill character.
This Monk can still contribute in a party and that is all some people, that I know, care about.
I have always seen the Monk as the 5th or 6th character that adds just a little something extra and a little something different.
Define contribute? To me it means the party would miss my presence. If the party can keep on going, and not really skip a beat then I probably was not contributing anyway.
edit:We will say the monk is the 5th man.
So, Mr Monk, if you want to join our adventuring company, what can you bring to the party?
Edit:
I have always seen the Monk as the 5th or 6th character that adds just a little something extra and a little something different.Like what? From what I can see, he doesn't bring anything to the party another class couldn't bring better.
Edit Edit:
What happens in a four-player game if you want to play a monk?
Also a good question.
He will even be assumed to be getting access to haste to see how that helps.Haste would not help the monk Vs the FULL BAB since the FULL BAB do just much more damage per hit.
I proposse that the monk can have the buff he want of a spell level 3 or lower.
True, but no reason to not cast the spell. :)
I don't think you are understanding where I am coming from.
I rather think the opposite is true. We know exactly where you are coming from. But you don;t seem to get where we are coming from.
Wizards and Clerics bring something different to a party. A Monk is not a front runner class like the classic Wizard, Fighter, Cleric, and Rogue. I don't think the class was designed that way. Honestly, when you have the classic four in a party you don't need a Paladin, or Ranger or even Sorcerer.
You may not NEED them, but that does not mean they are not useful. Any of those classes bring a lot extra to a party, and it's better for them.
What is more, you can replace any of the classic four with:
fighter: paladin, ranger, barbarian, cavelier.
rogue: ranger, ninja, bard.
wizard: witch, sorcerer.
cleric: oracle, paladin (again), druid.
You cannot replace any of these adequately with a monk, save maybe a rogue, only he won't do the job anything like as well as the rogue's other replacements, and his damage output will be awful because you'll have had to max up dex and wis to do the rogue's job. You certainly will not be as useful in a fight as the rogue.
The Monk gives a party an extra set of damage or an extra set of skills and I think it was designed that way.
But many other classes can do the same, only better. So why the monk, other than flavour?
What you do not understand is that we do not hate the monk. We love the monk. We want the monk to be able to actually add something mechanically to the party to make him worthwhile playing. We want to be able to play a monk that does something other than run around and wave his arms at things (missing, basically). It's horribly frustrating when you have to rely on a fluke of luck to do anything while your character's friends do all the hard work.
That Monk I posted was just the run of the mill character.
This Monk can still contribute in a party and that is all some people, that I know, care about.
I have always seen the Monk as the 5th or 6th character that adds just a little something extra and a little something different.
The point is a monk is struggling to add anything to a party of four that another character class cannot do better.
MA
I don't think you are understanding where I am coming from.
Wizards and Clerics bring something different to a party. A Monk is not a front runner class like the classic Wizard, Fighter, Cleric, and Rogue. I don't think the class was designed that way. Honestly, when you have the classic four in a party you don't need a Paladin, or Ranger or even Sorcerer.
The Monk gives a party an extra set of damage or an extra set of skills and I think it was designed that way.
An NPC expert can do that. What reason, other than flavor which I can apply to any class, is there for me to choose a monk is the question being asked.
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That Monk I posted was just the run of the mill character.
This Monk can still contribute in a party and that is all some people, that I know, care about.
I have always seen the Monk as the 5th or 6th character that adds just a little something extra and a little something different.
Define contribute? To me it means the party would miss my presence. If the party can keep on going, and not really skip a beat then I probably was not contributing anyway.
edit:We will say the monk is the 5th man.
Remember those words "to me it means".
Most party's about 4 or 5 people can continue without a party member unless the DM specifically creates encounters that call for a certain number of people.
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An NPC expert can do that. What reason, other than flavor which I can apply to any class, is there for me to choose a monk is the question being asked.That Monk I posted was just the run of the mill character.
This Monk can still contribute in a party and that is all some people, that I know, care about.
I have always seen the Monk as the 5th or 6th character that adds just a little something extra and a little something different.
The point is a monk is struggling to add anything to a party of four that another character class cannot do better.
MA
I don't think you are understanding where I am coming from.
Wizards and Clerics bring something different to a party. A Monk is not a front runner class like the classic Wizard, Fighter, Cleric, and Rogue. I don't think the class was designed that way. Honestly, when you have the classic four in a party you don't need a Paladin, or Ranger or even Sorcerer.
The Monk gives a party an extra set of damage or an extra set of skills and I think it was designed that way.
An expert can't do what the Monk does. An Expert doesn't have access to a Ki Pool, or Flurry, or any of the other abilities that the class has.
I will say that our views on role playing games differ a lot.
And a monk can't do as much for the party as just about any other core class. Your argument for Monk over Expert is the same as our argument for {insert class here} over monk.
You like monks, I get that. We like monks too. You think that flavour is enough in your games. That's cool, but we'd like the monk to be an option for games in which flavour is not enough. That's the difference between us.
That Monk I posted was just the run of the mill character.
This Monk can still contribute in a party and that is all some people, that I know, care about.
I have always seen the Monk as the 5th or 6th character that adds just a little something extra and a little something different.
The point is a monk is struggling to add anything to a party of four that another character class cannot do better.
MA
I don't think you are understanding where I am coming from.
Wizards and Clerics bring something different to a party. A Monk is not a front runner class like the classic Wizard, Fighter, Cleric, and Rogue. I don't think the class was designed that way. Honestly, when you have the classic four in a party you don't need a Paladin, or Ranger or even Sorcerer.
The Monk gives a party an extra set of damage or an extra set of skills and I think it was designed that way.
When you have the classic four you don't need anything. The question is what's available to you and what's most useful. So if the hypothetical party of the four iconic classes decides to recruit a 5th member why would they go for the monk?
Well let's see... what does the monk do?
In combat he does melee damage and maybe some maneuvers. Out of combat he's a half decent scout.
But if your party wants melee damage + scout they're going to be much better off with a ranger or (even better IMO) inquisitor. Both classes are better at both roles.
Now let's say they already have a rogue in their party (and the four base classes do). Now they're looking to hire melee damage. Why take the monk when you could get a paladin, ranger, barbarian, fighter, inquisitor, or hell, even a bard? Is running fast and being immune to poison a valid party role? I don't think so.
This is not to say that monks aren't fun to role play (they are). Or to say that their special abilities are bad (they're pretty cool). But the fact of the matter is that monks do low, inconsistent damage which makes them unsuitable for their primary function.
They just need a little help hitting things and breaking through DR. You can give them this trivially without changing the class's flavor in the least bit. You can have the same old fun to play monk with all the same iconic abilities but he won't be nearly as frustrating to play when it comes time to punch the demons.
This is not to say that monks aren't fun to role play (they are). Or to say that their special abilities are bad (they're pretty cool). But the fact of the matter is that monks do low, inconsistent damage which makes them unsuitable for their primary function.
They just need a little help hitting things and breaking through DR. You can give them this trivially without changing the class's flavor in the least bit. You can have the same old fun to play monk with all the same iconic abilities but he won't be nearly as frustrating to play when it comes time to punch the demons.
^ This ^
This is what we're arguing for. A monk that can contribute more than once in a blue moon. That's all.
That Monk I posted was just the run of the mill character.
This Monk can still contribute in a party and that is all some people, that I know, care about.
I have always seen the Monk as the 5th or 6th character that adds just a little something extra and a little something different.
Define contribute? To me it means the party would miss my presence. If the party can keep on going, and not really skip a beat then I probably was not contributing anyway.
edit:We will say the monk is the 5th man.
Remember those words "to me it means".
Most party's about 4 or 5 people can continue without a party member unless the DM specifically creates encounters that call for a certain number of people.
I think we are talking past each other. I will try to explain again.
You keep discussing RP, but we are not criticizing the monk from an RP perspective. Our issues are mechanical so talking about RP is not going to really do any good.
It would be like me saying I don't like pizza because of the taste, and then you try defend it by saying, but it smells good. That is nice, but to me the taste is the same. If you want to suggest something to change the way it taste that would help.
With that aside, what is the monk bringing to the party mechanically that I can depend on or look forward to on a consistent basis. That is basically what we are asking.
And you know...I remember when the monk was, depending on the campaign, a superior substitute to the thief. That was also 1e. Even when they weren't the superior substitute they got the job done.
The whole 4 iconics argument doesn't fly anymore. There are 4 roles a party needs filled, and multiple classes can fit each role, with some classes being able to cover more than one role.
Until you get to the monk. They fill no role mechanically, thanks to a grab bag of abilities (that worked well together...in 1e, 20 years ago)and force the rest of the group to carry their weight. It needs to get fixed.
It won't take much, there are at least 2 or 3 monk revisions/rewrites in the home brew section you'd need to either have the CRB in front of you or know the monk very well to pick up the changes immediately. And those don't omg overpower the monk. They bring him to parity, so he can be a viable pick for one of those 4 roles.
Being the 5th wheel is not something a class should be.
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It's pretty damn depressing when the monk examples put forth to prove that nothing is wrong with the class all dump CHA and/or INT right into the ground.
That certainly doesn't resemble any monk I want to roleplay, but apparently some think that's how we should be playing them if we expect them to work.
Shallowsoul, your entire "some people play the monk for *gasp* roleplaying" argument is an insulting one.
I want the monk to function because I want to actually roleplay a monk. When I last tried to roleplay a monk, it did NOT work. I could have "roleplayed" him as competent and confident as I had envisioned him, but he would have been nothing more than a deluded fool, because mechanically he wound up closer to Jerry Lewis than Bruce Lee.
And Bruce Lee sure as hell didn't have a negative INT or CHA score.
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Curses, now you've got me thinking of how to play a dumb and ugly monk. I'm thinking something along the lines of a high wisdom due to things "my momma always told me".
You are describing Forest Gump now? I guess he could be a monk...
9. Belt of Giant Strength +2 is 4,000 gp. Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 is 4,000 gp. Bracers of Armor +1 is 1,000 gp. At 5th level, you have 10,500 gp. Going by the balanced recommendations in the WBL section of the Core Rulebook, you cannot spend more 25% of your total wealth on any single item. In your case, that would be 2,625 gp before exceeding that cap. Some people allow 30%, but you are still well over that cap (which would 3,150 gp). Now, if you could spend up to 50% on a single item, you would be golden, but that ain't the balanced WBL most folks play with. In short, you cannot afford (by WBL guidelines) either a belt of giant strength or a headband of inspired wisdom prior to 6th level.
Wrong.
How about actually looking at the rules before saying things.
You'll notice that the "balanced approach" is nothing more than a guideline not a rule. It doesn't matter if you use the balanced one or if most people use it, the fact is that you can spend up to half your wealth on a single item.
We can't go referencing every rule before we post. The man was wrong, just like herolab messed up the short swords. No biggie, we made a note of it, blamed herolab, and moved on. In this case we get to blame MA's memory instead. :)
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The best flavor in the world won't change the fact that a class has bad mechanics.
I could create an Expert character with a rich and detailed backstory and cherrypick a unique set of class skills that no other class receives and be a unique fifth party member who occasionally hits things or contributes with an odd Knowledge (Engineering) or whatever else I chose to be an expert in. It could be amazing fluff and a wonderful individual character backed by excellent roleplaying.
But at the end of the day, Expert would still not measure up to the PC classes.
It's pretty damn depressing when the monk examples put forth to prove that nothing is wrong with the class all dump CHA and/or INT right into the ground.
That certainly doesn't resemble any monk I want to roleplay, but apparently some think that's how we should be playing them if we expect them to work.
Shallowsoul, your entire "some people play the monk for *gasp* roleplaying" argument is an insulting one.
I want the monk to function because I want to actually roleplay a monk. When I last tried to roleplay a monk, it did NOT work. I could have "roleplayed" him as competent and confident as I had envisioned him, but he would have been nothing more than a deluded fool, because mechanically he wound up closer to Jerry Lewis than Bruce Lee.
And Bruce Lee sure as hell didn't have a negative INT or CHA score.
I personally reccomend a certain houseruled version of 3.5e to fix this problem, considering one major focus was being able to have RP flavour unhindered by stat or feat taxes.
"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 5th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)
Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:20
Cha:5AC: 19
20 (Using Dodge)
23 (Versus Giants)
24 (Using Dodge vs Giants)HP: 5d8 + 10
Spd: 30
Fort: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +9 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)Attack: Flurry: +7/+7/Spend a Ki Point for another +7: 1d8 + 3
Kama: +7/+7 Spend Ki Point +7: 1d6 +3Feats: Scorpion Style, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 17 2/day (Fatigued), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic), Slow Fall 20ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity,
Skills: Acrobatics: +7, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +10, Sense Motive: +10, Stealth: +7, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +1, Masterwork Cold Iron Shortsword, Masterwork Silver Shortsword.I spent my stat increase on Int so he can take the Combat Expertise feats. Also, this is just a standard build using the main book. This character may not be the best but he's not useless. I've been looking over creatures around this PC's level and he can hit.
Let's look at this guy with the primary changes that I and others have suggested for the monk:
Attack: Flurry: +10/+10/Spend a Ki Point for another +10: 1d8 + 3
Spend 1 ki point to bypass 5 points of DR or hardness for 5 rounds.
Kama: +10/+10 Spend Ki Point +10: 1d6 +3
Not much difference save that he's a lot more likely to hit. Damage output is still low, but his stunning fist is that much more effective and his multiple attacks can make up the difference. Face him against a creature with DR and he shines compared to the other combat classes unless they have a special weapon (not a given at this level).
Compare him to the fighter and he's probably still doing less DPR until you face something with DR. The ability to hit consistently is worth something to the party.
That's the kind of difference we're looking for: enough to be effective, not brokenly so, but on the same playing field as the other combat classes.
I really do not see the problem with giving the monk full BAB and d10 hit dice. They get full BAB on flurry, which means that it is not that much of an increase. It will help them get GOOD feats at lv1, and not be restricted to stuff like Toughness and Dodge.
Fighters still outshine them in combat by virtue of feats, armor/weapon training and access to actual armor and weapons.
As it stands, the monk can work. IF the party is set up so it is allowed to. By virtue of buffs and item crafting (how many adventure paths have you seen drop an amulet of mighty fists, or a monk's robe?). And in a party where monk would WORK with said buffs, a fighter/paladin/barbarian would be godlike.
This has been proven in the Jade Regent game where I play a support/combat bard. I effectively TRIPLE the damage bonus of the monk character, who is built the way someone without high system mastery would build a monk (Dex>Wis>Con>Str>Int>Cha, with no actual dump stats). In the same party there is a Magus and a Sorcerer. They outdamage him 3-4 times, and have better defenses (mirror image alone is better than anything the monk ever gets). Even my bard is better at dealing damage, with his Str 14 and +1 Keen longsword. And he is also the party face, knowledge geek and skill monkey for all but trap-stuff. Because we have a wand of summon monster for those.
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I really do not see the problem with giving the monk full BAB and d10 hit dice. They get full BAB on flurry, which means that it is not that much of an increase. It will help them get GOOD feats at lv1, and not be restricted to stuff like Toughness and Dodge.
Frankly, the first feats at level one are usually Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers for me. The monk effectively has full BAB for everything but single attacks, so I don't think this would make a huge difference. The d10 hit dice would be nice, but it's not a game-maker.
Fighters still outshine them in combat by virtue of feats, armor/weapon training and access to actual armor and weapons.
Functionally fighters would outshine them across the board every bit as much as they currently do.
As it stands, the monk can work. IF the party is set up so it is allowed to. By virtue of buffs and item crafting (how many adventure paths have you seen drop an amulet of mighty fists, or a monk's robe?). And in a party where monk would WORK with said buffs, a fighter/paladin/barbarian would be godlike.
That's not the monk working, that's the party carrying him, and that's an added burden on them. You can buff up an Expert and they can be good in combat, but that doesn't make them a good choice. Again, the effort is given by the party just so one member can function, and this needs to be fixed.
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Oh, I agree completely. I know that the effectiveness of the monk in said game is more or less completely dependent on the buffing effort of the bard and sorc. He had a "duel" set-piece that the GM threw in for the cinematic lulz, where he was separated from the rest of the party. He was baffled how weak he was compared to his "normal" level of function.
I am a huge proponent of carrying your own weight, and contributing to the party. A weak character is a burden, and brings the party down. I am pro teamwork and playing to strengths (buffing a good martial to make him great), but we agree that the monk does not go from good to great. He goes from bad to slightly above average.
9. Belt of Giant Strength +2 is 4,000 gp. Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 is 4,000 gp. Bracers of Armor +1 is 1,000 gp. At 5th level, you have 10,500 gp. Going by the balanced recommendations in the WBL section of the Core Rulebook, you cannot spend more 25% of your total wealth on any single item. In your case, that would be 2,625 gp before exceeding that cap. Some people allow 30%, but you are still well over that cap (which would 3,150 gp). Now, if you could spend up to 50% on a single item, you would be golden, but that ain't the balanced WBL most folks play with. In short, you cannot afford (by WBL guidelines) either a belt of giant strength or a headband of inspired wisdom prior to 6th level.Wrong.
How about actually looking at the rules before saying things.
** spoiler omitted **
You'll notice that the "balanced approach" is nothing more than a guideline not a rule. It doesn't matter if you use the balanced one or if most people use it, the fact is that you can spend up to half your wealth on a single item.
How about actually reading my post before you start making accusations? You will notice, I hope, that I specifically referenced the balanced approach in that point. The entire WBL section is a guideline, not a rule. It all depends upon the gamemaster and what sort of game he is running. The fact is, that how much you can spend is directly dependent upon your DM. I prefer the balanced approach myself, and I find that a large portion of the people here on these boards agree with me. So how about getting off your high horse and cease attacking me?
MA
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So how about getting off your high horse and cease attacking me?
MA
Now you must realize that being on a high horse is +1 to hit with all melee based logical fallacies.
9. Belt of Giant Strength +2 is 4,000 gp. Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 is 4,000 gp. Bracers of Armor +1 is 1,000 gp. At 5th level, you have 10,500 gp. Going by the balanced recommendations in the WBL section of the Core Rulebook, you cannot spend more 25% of your total wealth on any single item. In your case, that would be 2,625 gp before exceeding that cap. Some people allow 30%, but you are still well over that cap (which would 3,150 gp). Now, if you could spend up to 50% on a single item, you would be golden, but that ain't the balanced WBL most folks play with. In short, you cannot afford (by WBL guidelines) either a belt of giant strength or a headband of inspired wisdom prior to 6th level.Wrong.
How about actually looking at the rules before saying things.
** spoiler omitted **
You'll notice that the "balanced approach" is nothing more than a guideline not a rule. It doesn't matter if you use the balanced one or if most people use it, the fact is that you can spend up to half your wealth on a single item.
How about actually reading my post before you start making accusations? You will notice, I hope, that I specifically referenced the balanced approach in that point. The entire WBL section is a guideline, not a rule. It all depends upon the gamemaster and what sort of game he is running. The fact is, that how much you can spend is directly dependent upon your DM. I prefer the balanced approach myself, and I find that a large portion of the people here on these boards agree with me. So how about getting off your high horse and cease attacking me?
MA
First off, how could i be on a high horse? I'm a Brain in a Jar i'm lucky if my jar doesn't get tipped over while i'm on a table.
Secondly, i wasn't attacking you, i was simple stating the actual rule used. A gamemaster can alter any rules they want, but the base rule is up to 50% wealth on a single item when making a character that is above 1st level.
The balanced approach is an optional rule since it requires the gamemaster to decide certain things.
For example if i'm playing a Wizard am i required to spend 25% of my wealth on weapons? If i'm not where does the 25% get added to?
It even says "Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items." So the whole balanced option isn't a rule it is a guideline for a balanced approach to spending wealth.
That's all i was trying to get at.
Also here is a 5th Monk using 20 Points that i wrote up for fun.
Male Human Monk 5
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 17 (21 with Mage Armor), touch 17, flat-footed 14 (18 with Mage Armor)
hp 36 (5 HD)
Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +6; +2 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities Evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +8 (1d8+5/x2) or
Melee +1 Quarterstaff +10 (1d6+8/x2)
Ranged Shuriken +5 (1d2+5/x2) 10ft
Flurry +1/+1 Quarterstaff +10/+10 (1d6+6/x2) or
Flurry Unarmed Strike +8/+8 (1d8+5/x2) or
Flurry Shuriken +5/+5 (1d2+5/x2) 10ft
Power Attack (-1 Attack +2 damage)
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +10; CMD 27
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff), Extra Ki
Skills: Acrobatics +10(+14 to jump), Climb +9, Perception +10, Sense Motive +10, Stealth +10, Survival +5, Swim +9
Languages: Common
SQ: AC Bonus +1, Fast Movement (+10'), High Jump (+14/+34 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool(6 points), Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 20', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue), Unarmed Strike (1d8)
Gear: +1/+1 Quarterstaff, Belt of Giant Strength(+2), Ring of Protection(+1), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds(CL 3rd), (3) Potion of Mage Armor(CL 1st), (20) Shuriken
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +1 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+10') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+14/+34 with Ki point)
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 20' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 14) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist.
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
That's just using Core. Adding in the other books i could make this Monk even better.
|
I'm glad you could make him better, because he ain't that impressive.
According to the Bestiary, a 5th level enemy should have:
55 Hp (you have 36)
18 AC (you have 17)
High attack of 10 (You just made that with the quarterstaff)
Average damage of 20 (Nope, close, but hitting on both flurry with quarterstaff is only 19 average)
Low damage of 15 (Nope, average is 9)
Primary Ability DC 15 (Nope, you are at 14 for stunning fist)
Secondary Ability DC (N/A so no)
Good save 8 (Actually didn't make it, you have 6)
Bad save 4 (Made this)
"With Mage Armor" assumes mage armor. Otherwise he's got a fairly bad 17 AC, not nearly enough hit points, behind on damage even in flurry, way behind when not flurrying.
At 5th level:
A rogue will hit more often (Higher dex as attack bonus) and is adding 3d6 sneak attack.
And alchemist has 3d6 bombs and 2nd level spells
An inquisitor has two judgements, bane and 2nd level spells.
A Bard has +2 Inspire courage ands 2nd level spells
Clerics and Druids have 3rd level spells.
Should I go on? I could build out some 5th level examples of the above if you like.
Male Human Monk 5
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +10
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Defense
--------------------
AC 17 (21 with Mage Armor), touch 17, flat-footed 14 (18 with Mage Armor)
hp 46 (5 HD)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +9; +2 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities Evasion; Immune disease
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +8 (1d8+5/x2) or
Melee +1 Quarterstaff +10 (1d6+8/x2)
Ranged Shuriken +5 (1d2+5/x2) 10ft
Flurry +1 Quarterstaff +10(1d6+6/x2) and Mwk Quarterstaff +10 (1d6+5/x2)
Flurry Unarmed Strike +8/+8 (1d8+5/x2) or
Flurry Shuriken +5/+5 (1d2+5/x2) 10ft
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +10; CMD 27
Feats: Iron Will, Toughness, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff), Extra Ki
Skills: Acrobatics +10(+14 to jump), Climb +9, Perception +10, Sense Motive +10, Stealth +10, Survival +5, Swim +9
Languages: Common
SQ: AC Bonus +1, Fast Movement (+10'), High Jump (+14/+34 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool(6 points), Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 20', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue), Unarmed Strike (1d8)
Gear: +1/Mwk Quarterstaff, Belt of Giant Strength(+2), Ring of Protection(+1), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds(CL 3rd),(6) Potion of Mage Armor(CL 1st),(20) Shuriken, Cloak of Resistance(+1),
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +1 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+10') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+14/+34 with Ki point)
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 20' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 14) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist.
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Alright i tweaked it a bit.
55 HP (I have 46 so close)
18 AC (I have 17 so close, also i can have mage armor for 1 hour increments from my potions, so when i'm prepared for a dungeon i'm at 21, also have option for using Ki IF needed to boost it to 25 for a round)
High Attack 10 (Check)
Average Damage 20 (i'm close with 18 with Flurry or 11 with one attack)
Low Damage 15 (i'm close minimum damage with flurry 13 or single 9)
Primary Ability DC 15 (close with a 14, though not a big deal since i'm using a staff mainly)
Good Save 8 (check i got a +9 will +7 with ref and fort)
Bad Saves (i don't have bad saves)
Also still only Core