Why all the Monk Hate?

[Eben TheQuiet]

So what would be a satisfactory test for you?

[johnlocke90]

Texicutioner wrote:

I think the problem is, and it is stated many times in this and other threads, is what is the monks role. Numerous responses say I couldn't create the monk I wanted to play, I have never had that problem. In the standard four people with complaints want the Monk to have the role of fighter, I've always veiwed it replacing the rogue, situationally good at combat but able to do many other things for the party. I rmember my enlarged monk in CoTCT keeping a swarm of Grey Maidens tied up by tripping/combat reflexes allowing the rest of the party to kill them off. If the developers want to redo the monk that is fine but I think a consensus of what people want the monk to do before changing. I think people may be just as unhappy with full BAB, magical enhancements for unarmed strikes but loose a sve a two and a bunch of immunities. IMHO

The issue shows up more when you reach levels 8+ imo. At this point the parties wizard is going to start flying and ignoring ranged attacks in every encounter, so the enemies need to be able to do the same(or else they will have a very hard time killing the caster)

Most fights that involve large groups of enemies will be handled by the wizard throwing out fireballs and Black Tentacles(which can grapple about as well as you can). This leaves the boss enemies, which are generally very tough and possibly casters, grappling and tripping stops working. Then you have to fall back on melee attacks. If this was mid to high level play, then it sounds like your DM was creating monsters specifically that you could use combat maneuvers against.

I would really like if monks could rely on combat maneuvers to be useful in combat, but there are so many things that have absurd CMD or are flat out immune to tripping(anything that can fly) and grappling(Freedom of Movement).

[wraithstrike]

shallowsoul wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

shallowsoul + 3.5 Loyaulist vs. Master Arminas and the Monkettes! WOOOHOOOOOOO!

To be honest I'm not into the Monk all that much but I'm not going to just sit there and watch the Monk get trashed based on a few corner cases.

Corner case?

I am seeing the monk struggle consistently and shine in corner cases such as falling off a cliff, not that being put in that situation is really what I would call shining anymore than a fighter with a ring of featherfall could be said to shine.

[wraithstrike]

shallowsoul wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

They play the class for what it is, but what it is is whatever they decide? That's a serious ice cream koan.

I know some people who don't play the Monk as an up front combat type character. They play the Monk as someone who runs around and throws a blow here and there but they also, "oh my god", play the class for role playing reasons.

Really what the Monk needs is the ability to bypass all DRs using Ki.

3rd: DR/Magic
6th: Dr/Silver
9th: DR/Cold Iron
12th:DR/Lawful

Etc....

A class should be able to survive mechanically, and without GM intervention. I can play a commoner for RP reason that does not make it a good idea.

edit:I see TOZ said the same thing.

[master arminas]

shallowsoul wrote:

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

Shallowsoul, you have multiple 'showing our work' by posting actual builds to support our arguments. Do you have a build that 'gets it right', and debunks our issues with the monk class?

I don't have to post any builds. What some of you have been doing is posting builds and then picking specific encounters that will give that particular build trouble.

Creating troublesome encounters shows nothing but how a class is in trouble versus that specific build.

We could do that for all classes and all builds and come to the same conclusion.

So why then did you ask for the ability score array for that Bard? Just to see if I was perhaps making things up? The least you could do is say, thank you for answering my question, Master Arminas. Yes, a bard with those ability scores at 20th level is certainly possible.

MA

[Icyshadow]

Krigare wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

Shallowsoul, you have multiple 'showing our work' by posting actual builds to support our arguments. Do you have a build that 'gets it right', and debunks our issues with the monk class?

I don't have to post any builds. What some of you have been doing is posting builds and then picking specific encounters that will give that particular build trouble.

Creating troublesome encounters shows nothing but how a class is in trouble versus that specific build.

We could do that for all classes and all builds and come to the same conclusion.

Of course you don't have to post any builds.

No one has to believe you either.

In a forum such as this one, it s helpful if you can support your claim with some form of proof besides "I say so." In fact, once you get past the grade school playground, proof to support claims can get pretty important.

So, please, either post up a build to show some proof, or go into more detail about how the monk contributes ( and not in that dice less "we RP through encounters" way please, we are talking RAW monks and rules) and actually, you know, contribute to the discussion.

Or be like the monk and don't contribute, but if that's your option, you realize that for some of us, that borders on trollish behavior?

This. ^^

[wraithstrike]

shallowsoul wrote:

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

Shallowsoul, you have multiple 'showing our work' by posting actual builds to support our arguments. Do you have a build that 'gets it right', and debunks our issues with the monk class?

I don't have to post any builds. What some of you have been doing is posting builds and then picking specific encounters that will give that particular build trouble.

Creating troublesome encounters shows nothing but how a class is in trouble versus that specific build.

We could do that for all classes and all builds and come to the same conclusion.

Actually Shallowsoul there is a thread where this was done with a variety of monsters at level 13. The monsters were brute types, ambush types, multiple monsters, dragons, outsiders, and so on. The monk did not do well in most of them, and it was allowed to use material from other books.

Since the monsters are already in place, and it was Ciretose that built the monk IIRC, and he even agreed the issue was not rigged I see no reason why you can't post a monk.

If you are interested:
A Cleric, Rogue, Tank Fighter, Wizard, and a choice of Monk or Barbarian as an extra.

Quote:

Level 13: No multiclassing

WBL:140,000 gp, with no more than 33%(46,200) of your wealth going to any one item.

Point Buy: 20 points

Books allowed: CRB, APG, UC, UM.

I had a 10th level wizard from PbP game that did not get too far. The spell were chosen, and it was well past the edit point so I used that to justify certain spells.

Ciretose wrote:

I believe the assertion was that barbarians were clearly and unquestionably superior.

So I figured if that were the case I would have no chance building an equal level monk that had as much value to the party as the Barbarian.

So that seems to be the challenge.

I then proceeded to build my first barbarian ever.

Now since all of these posts and monsters have been made months ago, there can be no rigging.

edit:I see Dabbler mentioned the thread already. :)

[Dabbler]

shallowsoul wrote:

By 2oth level a Monk should be able to bypass the following DR if he is good. Magic, Lawful, Adamantine, Chaotic, and Good. For anything else such as Cold Iron or Silver he would need to maybe carry around a spare weapon or two. Other classes such as the fighter has to do this.

How do you figure that, exactly? Fighter has a +10, weapon, and +5 in enhancement slices right through those DRs. Monk has a +5 AoMF, and if he has just one +1 property in anything other than enhancement, he's not beating that alignment DR save for Lawful.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from, so can you please show us the feats, design-work, the complete build if you must.

shallowsoul wrote:

Where does it say that a Monk is a combat class specifically?

Pathfinder CRB wrote:

Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it’s least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.

So they have to attack foes to fulfil their role. Presumably this is done physically and not verbally, and that kind of says fighting as monks don;t cast spells or have abilities that allow them to attack without, you know, hitting things in combat.

Gorbacz wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

shallowsoul + 3.5 Loyaulist vs. Master Arminas and the Monkettes! WOOOHOOOOOOO!

To be honest I'm not into the Monk all that much but I'm not going to just sit there and watch the Monk get trashed based on a few corner cases.

I'm just happy that "Monk sucks, Paizo please rewrite class now" crowd has finally met opponents of their own weight category :)

Hardly. We can back up our stance with facts and figures. Shallowsoul has yet to substantiate any of his claims with a build, a feat, or anything he just comes down to a position of: "Monk is fine 'cos I say so!"

shallowsoul wrote:

Technically all classes are "combat" classes.

I would agree that every class has to function in combat, and most do. The monk is standing out as a glaring exception because while his defences are good, the relative effectiveness of his attacks declines as he increases in level.

shallowsoul wrote:

The Monk is a skirmisher which means he can run around all over the place and jump in and out to land a blow or two.

Yet he gets his best attack bonus when he stands still, and lots of extra attacks, so clearly there is more to the monk than this. Doing as you suggest he is down to 3/4 BAB, his enhancement is behind that of the other combat classes and his MAD stats reduce his chances further. So more accurately:

Quote:

The Monk is a skirmisher which means he can run around all over the place and jump in and out to try and fail land a blow or two.

And that's it, really. The mechanics just don't support your argument.

By all means, post up a build if you feel you can get a skirmishing monk to hit as accurately as another combat class, show us where we are wrong.

shallowsoul wrote:

This is how the rogue works but I wouldn't call it a primary combat class.

I agree. But the rogue can do a lot of other things that the monk cannot that will benefit the party (and this is important - monks can do some nice tricks, but they don't actually benefit the party much, or even the monk come to that). Rogues can scout, they can be the party face, they can find things out. The monk cannot do these things anything like as well. The rogue hits as often as the monk, but a lot harder thanks to that sneak attack.

Now the monk clearly IS a combat from the description of the class, yet the rogue does their job as well as they do, and more besides. Yet the rogue is the next-weakest class, by all accounts.

shallowsoul wrote:

The Monk class is what ever the player decides to do with it.

Actually in my experience the monk is not anything the player wants it to be, if he wants to contribute to the party effectively.

shallowsoul wrote:

Let's see your ability score array for that Bard.

He did. Now, stats for your super-monk please?

shallowsoul wrote:

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

Shallowsoul, you have multiple 'showing our work' by posting actual builds to support our arguments. Do you have a build that 'gets it right', and debunks our issues with the monk class?

I don't have to post any builds. What some of you have been doing is posting builds and then picking specific encounters that will give that particular build trouble.

Creating troublesome encounters shows nothing but how a class is in trouble versus that specific build.

We could do that for all classes and all builds and come to the same conclusion.

Actually we went through about ten pages of one thread comparing several monk builds and a barbarian build with a wide variety to see how each could contribute to a standard four-person party fighting the encounter. We aren't just cherry-picking here to bash the monk, we are genuinely highlighting a REAL problem with the class, one that many of us have encountered in actual play.

You disagree, you say we are all doing it wrong, well then put up and show us where we are wrong. I am happy to concede I may be wrong if you can show the working...but nothing I have crunched so far says so. So show us a build, show us what a monk can do! Tell us how it excels and at what. Yes, if it can be beaten in all sides by another class, we'll say so. Yes, if the majority of encounters would stomp it, we'll say so. No, if you have a genuine point we will not sideline it with corner cases. We'll concede any point you genuinely make. But we can't do that is you don't post a build.

Edit: I posted a second monk build to that thread for added comparison, too!

[Horbagh]

master arminas wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

Shallowsoul, you have multiple 'showing our work' by posting actual builds to support our arguments. Do you have a build that 'gets it right', and debunks our issues with the monk class?

I don't have to post any builds. What some of you have been doing is posting builds and then picking specific encounters that will give that particular build trouble.

Creating troublesome encounters shows nothing but how a class is in trouble versus that specific build.

We could do that for all classes and all builds and come to the same conclusion.

So why then did you ask for the ability score array for that Bard? Just to see if I was perhaps making things up? The least you could do is say, thank you for answering my question, Master Arminas. Yes, a bard with those ability scores at 20th level is certainly possible.

MA

Well so far I've heard

1) the monk is not a combat class
2) all classes are combat classes
3) the monk's role is to run around the battlefield and occasionally land a blow

Now I don't know what to make of 1 and 2 but 3 is interesting. If 3 is all you want out of the monk then great. He's perfect as is. No changes necessary. I think most of would like to see him contribute more to actual, you know, combat. Particularly in situations where the party has to get its act together to win/survive.

[wraithstrike]

Dabbler, SS thinks we just don't like the monk for some reason. He fails to understand that we actually would like to know how to make it more effective. If he can show us, we won't be mad. It will be a good thing. I did not like bards when PF first came out, but someone, and I can't remember who posted one in a thread, and I came around. I am always willing to learn. :)

No it was not Treantmonk's guide that did it. I still did not care for them after reading the guide.

[Dabbler]

Horbagh wrote:

Well so far I've heard

1) the monk is not a combat class
2) all classes are combat classes
3) the monk's role is to run around the battlefield and occasionally land a blow

Now I don't know what to make of 1 and 2 but 3 is interesting. If 3 is all you want out of the monk then great. He's perfect as is. No changes necessary. I think most of would like to see him contribute more to actual, you know, combat. Particularly in situations where the party has to get its act together to win/survive.

If you take 3 as is, that's a very occasional blow he'll land. Occasional enough that his team-mates will wonder what he's really around for.

[johnlocke90]

shallowsoul wrote:

sunshadow21 wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

What about their "to hit" versus the AC of creatures at specific CRs?

Past level 5 or 6, monsters AC goes up much faster than a monk's hit bonus most of the time. And that doesn't count DR which can often turn a hit into what is functionally not a hit. Even when flurrying, and thus getting the full BAB, it can be tough to actually deliver any damage if you stick to your fists. If you choose one of the other monk weapons you can flurry with, it's a bit easier, but still tough.

I see a big problem here. You are assuming most or all creatures the Monk is up against have DR that he can't bypass or has DR for that matter.

It's like talking about a spellcaster and comparing everything he goes against has SR or Immunities.

Everything a high level caster fights should have SR and immunities, but a spell caster has ways to get past that(Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and a rod of Piercing spell add +9 on spell pen checks). Immunities are dealt with by using spells that aren't affected by immunities. A hungry pit or a T-rex will still hurt.

[Dabbler]

wraithstrike wrote:

Dabbler, SS thinks we just don't like the monk for some reason. He fails to understand that we actually would like to know how to make it more effective. If he can show us, we won't be mad. It will be a good thing. I did not like bards when PF first came out, but someone, and I can't remember who posted one in a thread, and I came around. I am always willing to learn. :)

So am I, Wraithstrike. I love the monk, I love the class and the concept. But playing one in the last campaign - despite awesome scores - it just led to frustration as I was shut down constantly, especially in boss-fights. The magus hit better than me, cleared mooks faster than me, in fact did pretty much everything but acrobatic tricks better than me. Don't even mention the paladin...

If there's a magic formula to make the monk work, I'd love to know what it is.

[johnlocke90]

shallowsoul wrote:

Dabbler wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

So what's wrong with carrying a set of Cold Iron weapons for that possible, occasional fight against something with DR/Cold Iron?

Two problems with this:

Monk weapons suck. For every other character, a +3 weapon, which they will have around 10th level, gets through this DR. +3 AoMF isn't going to happen until much later in your career. At 10th level, 1d6 damage with a cold iron weapon you can barely hit with isn't really contributing, it's a token gesture - especially as you cannot get your abilities to work with it. In comparison, a fighter (or ranger, or barbarian, or paladin) can carry a spare cold iron greatsword and get his abilities and feast (weapon focus, weapon specialisation and weapon training, favoured enemy, smite evil, rage) bonuses with it.

You just nerfed down your odds to hit. Again.

shallowsoul wrote:

From personal experience, the most used DR that we have encounter is DR/Magic. You can't base the functionality of a class based on the fact that it isn't going to be optimal against all creatures and all situations.

You played below 10th level, then.

Above that point the other DRs start getting far more common, and boss-fights are CR+2-4 which means when you face the BBEG you are much more likely to run into it.

You can't afford to carry a holy weapon to get past DR/good, and applying weapon blanches and oils takes time, time you often don't have. Even buffs cannot be relied on because at 13th level your Diamond Body means anyone trying to buff you mid-fight has to make a caster level check to get it past your own defences.

You are correct in one case, though, that you cannot base the functionality of a class on it's effectiveness in only one corner case. The reason you are wrong about the monk is because the monk is often ineffective in a number of cases, where a combat class should not be ineffective. It's not as if he has special effectiveness in as many other circumstances that are not complete corner

...

My party played a campaign where we fought a lot of demons and devils at level 14. They all had DR/good. Our monk was able to hit the enemies, but his damage sucked as he had no way to penetrate their dr.

[Eben TheQuiet]

johnlocke90, I dont suppose you have the monk's build and the demons you fought, do you? That might help us see how the fight went down.

Don't know if that's possible given that it wasn't your character, but it would be helpful to the conversation.

[shallowsoul]

"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 5th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)

Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:20
Cha:5

AC: 19
20 (Using Dodge)
23 (Versus Giants)
24 (Using Dodge vs Giants)

HP: 5d8 + 10
Spd: 30
Fort: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +9 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)

Attack: Flurry: +7/+7/Spend a Ki Point for another +7: 1d8 + 3
Shortswords: +7/+7 Spend Ki Point +7: 1d6 +3

Feats: Scorpion Style, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 17 2/day (Fatigued), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic), Slow Fall 20ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity,
Skills: Acrobatics: +7, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +10, Sense Motive: +10, Stealth: +7, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +1, Masterwork Cold Iron Shortsword, Masterwork Silver Shortsword.

I spent my stat increase on Int so he can take the Combat Expertise feats. Also, this is just a standard build using the main book. This character may not be the best but he's not useless. I've been looking over creatures around this PC's level and he can hit.

[shallowsoul]

wraithstrike wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

shallowsoul + 3.5 Loyaulist vs. Master Arminas and the Monkettes! WOOOHOOOOOOO!

To be honest I'm not into the Monk all that much but I'm not going to just sit there and watch the Monk get trashed based on a few corner cases.

Corner case?

I am seeing the monk struggle consistently and shine in corner cases such as falling off a cliff, not that being put in that situation is really what I would call shining anymore than a fighter with a ring of featherfall could be said to shine.

Shining is subjective. Some people feel like they shine no matter what they do.

Expectations.

[shallowsoul]

wraithstrike wrote:

Dabbler, SS thinks we just don't like the monk for some reason. He fails to understand that we actually would like to know how to make it more effective. If he can show us, we won't be mad. It will be a good thing. I did not like bards when PF first came out, but someone, and I can't remember who posted one in a thread, and I came around. I am always willing to learn. :)

No it was not Treantmonk's guide that did it. I still did not care for them after reading the guide.

Monk's are effective, just not in your eyes.

[johnlocke90]

shallowsoul wrote:

Horbagh wrote:

Gignere wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

Where does it say that a Monk is a combat class specifically?

It's call process of elimination. You look at the monk and you see, no caster levels ok so not a spell caster. Then you go over and see hmm 4 skill points per level, probably not a skill monkey.

Then you read flurry of blows a unique way to fight in combat.

Then you continue all good saves, AC increase and unarm damage automatically goes up as you level.

I get it the monk must be a healing class....

Seriously. If people haven't figured out that monks are a combat class that would explain a lot. I can't imagine what kind of class they're supposed to be though. Do the official APs have lots of modules devoted to foot races and fireball dodging competitions or something?

The Monk is a skirmisher which means he can run around all over the place and jump in and out to land a blow or two.

This line makes me think you simply don't know what you are talking about. A monk who is running around and jumping in to land a blow or two would be using his awful base attack bonus(which will mean the attack doesn't land) and will just be ignored by the monster in favor of hitting the monks allies.

Why in the world would a monk decide to bounce around the encounter when this means he can only attack once per round at a low base attack bonus?

[Dabbler]

shallowsoul wrote:

Shining is subjective. Some people feel like they shine no matter what they do.

Expectations.

I know of no players that feel they are shining when they get their characters consistently stomped and can consistently not do anything about it.

Once again, you tell us what not to expect...but you do not ever bother to tell us what to expect.

shallowsoul wrote:

Monk's are effective, just not in your eyes.

Not in anyone's eyes but yours, apparently. What this effectiveness is I do not know. Please show us, oh wise one, how this mechanically effective monk is made?

Or in other words: Put up or shut up.

[wraithstrike]

shallowsoul wrote:

"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 5th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)

Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:20
Cha:5

AC: 19
20 (Using Dodge)
23 (Versus Giants)
24 (Using Dodge vs Giants)

HP: 5d8 + 10
Spd: 30
Fort: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +9 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)

Attack: Flurry: +7/+7/Spend a Ki Point for another +7: 1d8 + 3
Shortswords: +7/+7 Spend Ki Point +7: 1d6 +3

Feats: Scorpion Style, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 17 2/day (Fatigued), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic), Slow Fall 20ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity,
Skills: Acrobatics: +7, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +10, Sense Motive: +10, Stealth: +7, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +1, Masterwork Cold Iron Shortsword, Masterwork Silver Shortsword.

I spent my stat increase on Int so he can take the Combat Expertise feats. Also, this is just a standard build using the main book. This character may not be the best but he's not useless. I've been looking over creatures around this PC's level and he can hit.

The default AC for a CR 5 monster is 18. The monk is hitting less than 50% of the time. However A CR 5 monster have a +10 to hit if it is primarily designed to do hit point damage, and a +7 if it does not.

The wraith has stealth of +11, but you monk has a +10 to perception. It forces a DC 17 fort save. You have a fort save of +6.

Most monsters also have perception comparable to your stealth.

So the monk is having trouble hitting, but he won't get hit too much unless the elemental comes into play, but they always hit hard for their CR anyway.

It won't be a scout, and it is mediocre at locating enemies.

Of course I did not make this character so maybe SS can tell me wha tI am missing.

[wraithstrike]

shallowsoul wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

shallowsoul + 3.5 Loyaulist vs. Master Arminas and the Monkettes! WOOOHOOOOOOO!

To be honest I'm not into the Monk all that much but I'm not going to just sit there and watch the Monk get trashed based on a few corner cases.

Corner case?

I am seeing the monk struggle consistently and shine in corner cases such as falling off a cliff, not that being put in that situation is really what I would call shining anymore than a fighter with a ring of featherfall could be said to shine.

Shining is subjective. Some people feel like they shine no matter what they do.

Expectations.

Fair enough. What if the player wants to feel useful and providing a flank does not cut it?

[wraithstrike]

shallowsoul wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Dabbler, SS thinks we just don't like the monk for some reason. He fails to understand that we actually would like to know how to make it more effective. If he can show us, we won't be mad. It will be a good thing. I did not like bards when PF first came out, but someone, and I can't remember who posted one in a thread, and I came around. I am always willing to learn. :)

No it was not Treantmonk's guide that did it. I still did not care for them after reading the guide.

Monk's are effective, just not in your eyes.

I missed this one. I am waiting on actual normal situations, and not corner cases. This is not an argument. This is a debate. Just like my mind was changed about the bard and the inquisitor I feel like it should be able to be changed about the monk.

So what should I as player expect to be able to do with my monk. We already know the monk has good defense, but what if I want to do more than just survive?

[johnlocke90]

Nicos wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

By 2oth level a Monk should be able to bypass the following DR if he is good. Magic, Lawful, Adamantine, Chaotic, and Good. For anything else such as Cold Iron or Silver he would need to maybe carry around a spare weapon or two. Other classes such as the fighter has to do this.

Do not a +5 weapon bypass all kind of damage redcution?*

* except epic.

it doesn, however amulet of mighty fists isn't a weapon and Paizo has stated doesn't bypass dr.

[Nicos]

johnlocke90 wrote:

Nicos wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

By 2oth level a Monk should be able to bypass the following DR if he is good. Magic, Lawful, Adamantine, Chaotic, and Good. For anything else such as Cold Iron or Silver he would need to maybe carry around a spare weapon or two. Other classes such as the fighter has to do this.

Do not a +5 weapon bypass all kind of damage redcution?*

* except epic.

it doesn, however amulet of mighty fists isn't a weapon and Paizo has stated doesn't bypass dr.

I am talking about the fighter weapon :)

[Krigare]

shallowsoul wrote:

"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 5th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)

Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:20
Cha:5

AC: 19
20 (Using Dodge)
23 (Versus Giants)
24 (Using Dodge vs Giants)

HP: 5d8 + 10
Spd: 30
Fort: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +9 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)

Attack: Flurry: +7/+7/Spend a Ki Point for another +7: 1d8 + 3
Shortswords: +7/+7 Spend Ki Point +7: 1d6 +3

Feats: Scorpion Style, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 17 2/day (Fatigued), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic), Slow Fall 20ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity,
Skills: Acrobatics: +7, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +10, Sense Motive: +10, Stealth: +7, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +1, Masterwork Cold Iron Shortsword, Masterwork Silver Shortsword.

I spent my stat increase on Int so he can take the Combat Expertise feats. Also, this is just a standard build using the main book. This character may not be the best but he's not useless. I've been looking over creatures around this PC's level and he can hit.

You've got your attack bonuses wrong...

Either that or you factored magic items into your stats. Either way, you still can't flurry with short swords, at least not according to my CRB. Admittedly, at level 5 that's a non issue, I don't think anyone says monks don't contribute at low levels, although as the spooky one pointed out, your at less than a 50% hit chance, and your ability to scout is sub-par. Also, for the level, your saves are barely at a minimum threshold for survival, and maybe not even that ( the typical wizard I play equals your fort save at this level, that's a lil bit of an issue there)

[wraithstrike]

I did not even pay attention to the shortswords, but his attack bonus is correct.

BAB=5 when flurrying
Str=3
Weapon focus=1
flurry=-2
(5+3+1)-2=9-2=7

[johnlocke90]

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

johnlocke90, I dont suppose you have the monk's build and the demons you fought, do you? That might help us see how the fight went down.

Don't know if that's possible given that it wasn't your character, but it would be helpful to the conversation.

The hard encounters were stuff like a Marilith, Qlippoth and a Balor. The first issue was that our monk thought that having a really high CMD and AC would save him(it didn't, he still got grappled with ease and almost turned into a Qlippoth spawn). He was also really sad when the party wizard had a higher AC than him(I was at 54 AC at level 16, Seamantle gave me total cover, +8 AC, and archmagi robes with Magic Vestment gave him +7 armor, combined with other stuff I was incredibly hard to hit). Then when he did hit the Marilith or Balor, he was doing 15 less damage a swing which made him negligible next to the druid who focused on heavy hitting natural attacks.

His main contribution was probably being the easiest for monsters to hit in the party and thus chain dying every encounter while the party killed the monster.

[master arminas]

shallowsoul wrote:

"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 5th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)

Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:20
Cha:5

AC: 19
20 (Using Dodge)
23 (Versus Giants)
24 (Using Dodge vs Giants)

HP: 5d8 + 10
Spd: 30
Fort: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +9 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)

Attack: Flurry: +7/+7/Spend a Ki Point for another +7: 1d8 + 3
Shortswords: +7/+7 Spend Ki Point +7: 1d6 +3

Feats: Scorpion Style, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 17 2/day (Fatigued), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic), Slow Fall 20ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity,
Skills: Acrobatics: +7, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +10, Sense Motive: +10, Stealth: +7, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +1, Masterwork Cold Iron Shortsword, Masterwork Silver Shortsword.

I spent my stat increase on Int so he can take the Combat Expertise feats. Also, this is just a standard build using the main book. This character may not be the best but he's not useless. I've been looking over creatures around this PC's level and he can hit.

1. So your starting build was Str 14 (5 pts), Dex 14 (5 pts), Con 12 (2 pts) +2 racial, Int 12 (2 pts), Wis 16 (10 pts) +2 racial, Cha 7 (-4 pts) -2 racial, resulting in scores of Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 5. Okay. That is not a bad array, but you definately aren't going to be the party face.

2. Your AC is 20 (including dodge). Not horrible, but a sword & board fighter or cavalier will be in full-plate with heavy shield by this level, for an AC of 21 pre-magic (presuming a Dex of 12). Barbarians and rangers will probably be in breastplate at this level, for an AC of 18, pre-magic (with Dex of 14 and no shield). Armor enhancement bonuses are cheap, for 2,000 gp those characters can add another +2 (+1 armor, +1 shield). If the ranger goes sword & board, he actually gains another +3 (for a light shield) or +4 (for a heavy). So, you are looking at being on par or 2-3 points behind other combat characters in AC, even before THEY take Dodge. AND see point #9, that will drop your AC by 1 point; on the bright side, you can afford a +1 ring of protection then to boost you back up, and even a +1 amulet of natural armor to give you a 21 AC.

3. Your get 8 hit points for 1st level, plus 2 for your Con. Going average, you get 6.5 hp for each level 2-5th. Total hit points will be 36. If you put your favored class class bonus in HP, that would make it 41, but I can't see that you did.

4. You cannot flurry with short swords, so that is a no-go. You get one attack with a short sword at +7 (1d6+3), or one attack with unarmed strike at +7 (1d8+3), when you move . . . you cannot spend ki to get an extra attack when you move, because that ain’t flurry. As built, you can only flurry with unarmed strike, which gives you +7/+7 (1d8+3), with an extra attack at +7 (1d8+3) for spending 1 ki.

5. Which brings us to, going by WBL guidelines, you cannot that belt of giant strength (point #9 below). That will put your attack bonus at +6, for 1d6+2 damage (short sword) or 1d8+2 damage (unarmed strikes).

6. You get 5 stunning fist attempts a day, not 2.

7. Scorpion Style? You cannot use this in a flurry, only as a standard action. Why?

8. Your skill rank breakdown is . . . Acrobatics, 2 ranks (2+3 class skill+2 Dex); Climb, 0 ranks (0+3 Str); Escape Artist, 2 ranks (2+3 class skill+2 Dex); Perception, 2 ranks (2+3 class skill+5 Wis); Sense Motive, 2 ranks (2+3 class skill+5 Wis); Stealth, 2 ranks (2+3 class skill+2 Dex); Swim, 0 ranks (0+3 Str)? You should have 4 ranks + Int (in this case 1) per level, so you should have 25 skill ranks (5 ranks x 5 levels). You have 10. Actually, looking at the character, you haven’t used your favored class for hit points, so you should have another 3 skill points: 30 ranks, all told.

9. Belt of Giant Strength +2 is 4,000 gp. Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 is 4,000 gp. Bracers of Armor +1 is 1,000 gp. At 5th level, you have 10,500 gp. Going by the balanced recommendations in the WBL section of the Core Rulebook, you cannot spend more 25% of your total wealth on any single item. In your case, that would be 2,625 gp before exceeding that cap. Some people allow 30%, but you are still well over that cap (which would 3,150 gp). Now, if you could spend up to 50% on a single item, you would be golden, but that ain't the balanced WBL most folks play with. In short, you cannot afford (by WBL guidelines) either a belt of giant strength or a headband of inspired wisdom prior to 6th level.

MA

[wraithstrike]

Sounds like a high powered game which really does not help the monk. Was this an epic level game?

edit:This was for Johnlocke.

[master arminas]

wraithstrike wrote:

I did not even pay attention to the shortswords, but his attack bonus is correct.

BAB=5 when flurrying
Str=3
Weapon focus=1
flurry=-2
(5+3+1)-2=9-2=7

Correct for unarmed strikes. 5th level is the point where normal and flurry BAB are the same (effectively) . . . both are at +3. His short swords are masterwork, which gives the +1 bonus his unarmed strikes get from Weapon Focus, but he still cannot use them in a flurry.

MA

[wraithstrike]

I know. I was just saying I just did not even know he has short swords while explaining the unarmed strike.

[Krigare]

wraithstrike wrote:

I know. I was just saying I just did not even know he has short swords while explaining the unarmed strike.

Which is why I put the qualifier of putting magic item bonuses into the stats. I'm used to seeing the enhanced stats separately. No biggie.

[master arminas]

wraithstrike wrote:

I know. I was just saying I just did not even know he has short swords while explaining the unarmed strike.

Sorry, did not mean to imply that you didn't see that. I am assuming that he has the short swords in order to get through damage reduction, since one is cold iron and the other is alchemical silver. But I am still puzzled, because he could the same thing with kamas for the same damage . . . and flurry with them. Maybe he wants the higher threat range and is only using the short swords on his 'skirmish' hit-and-fade technique.

MA

[Dabbler]

master arminas wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

I did not even pay attention to the shortswords, but his attack bonus is correct.

BAB=5 when flurrying
Str=3
Weapon focus=1
flurry=-2
(5+3+1)-2=9-2=7

Correct for unarmed strikes. 5th level is the point where normal and flurry BAB are the same (effectively) . . . both are at +3. His short swords are masterwork, which gives the +1 bonus his unarmed strikes get from Weapon Focus, but he still cannot use them in a flurry.

MA

5th level is also in the monk's sweet spot, where he is at his beast compared to other classes. Nonetheless, this build is not inspiring. He's a cut under mediocre, in fact, highlighting the classic monk issues. A full BAB class is hitting at around +11 at this level with similar stats (+5 BAB, +5 Str, +1 enhancement) without weapon focus. Even TWFing the monk can be considered to be +2 behind the curve already.

Here's two builds that I made a while back crunching numbers - a scouting/dex-based monk and an offensive strength-based monk.

Dex Monk:

Monk Test Level 6
Male Human (Chelaxian) Monk 6
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +13
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 22, flat-footed 18 (+2 armor, +5 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 33 (6d8)
Fort +5, Ref +10, Will +9; +2 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities Evasion; Immune disease
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 50 ft.
Melee Masterwork Cold Iron Kama +10 (1d6/x2) and
. . Masterwork Siangham +10 (1d6/x2) and
. . Mithral Kama +10 (1d6/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +9 (FoB +9/+9/+4) (1d8/x2)
Ranged Shuriken +9 (1d2/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +4/+4/-1, Ki Strike, Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 18/20, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 16/18, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +11 (+13 Disarming, +13 Tripping); CMD 26 (28 vs. Disarm, 28 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise +/-2, Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Dodge, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Stunning Fist (6/day) (DC 17), Weapon Finesse
Traits Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device), Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb)
Skills Acrobatics +14 (+22 jump, +20 to jump), Climb +11, Disable Device +13, Escape Artist +14, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Perception +13, Ride +9, Sense Motive +12, Stealth +14, Swim +6
Languages Common, Draconic, Thassilonian
SQ AC Bonus +5, Fast Movement (+20'), High Jump (+6/+26 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 30', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue), Unarmed Strike (1d8)
Combat Gear Masterwork Cold Iron Kama, Masterwork Siangham, Mithral Kama, Shuriken (20); Other Gear Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Bracers of armor +2, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+20') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +4/+4/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+6/+26 with Ki point) (Ex) +6 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 30' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (6/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb) Climb becomes a Wisdom-based, class skill.

Strength Monk:

Monk Test #2 Level 6
Male Human Monk 6
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +13
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 20, touch 19, flat-footed 17 (+1 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 45 (6d8+6)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +9; +2 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities Evasion; Immune disease
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 50 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +9 (1d8+5/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +4/+4/-1, Ki Strike, Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 17/19, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16/18, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +10; CMD 27
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Crushing Blow (-4), Dodge, Dragon Ferocity +2, 1d4+4 rds, Dragon Style, Gorgon's Fist (DC 17), Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Scorpion Style (DC 17), Stunning Fist (6/day) (DC 17)
Traits Outlander - Exile, World Traveler (Knowledge [local])
Skills Acrobatics +11 (+19 jump, +17 to jump), Climb +10, Escape Artist +9, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (religion) +4, Perception +13, Sense Motive +8, Stealth +9, Swim +9
Languages Common
SQ AC Bonus +5, Fast Movement (+20'), High Jump (+6/+26 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 30', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue), Unarmed Strike (1d8)
Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +1, Belt of giant strength +2, Bracers of armor +1, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Crushing Blow (-4) Stunning Fist reduces target's AC
Dragon Ferocity +2, 1d4+4 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style Gain +2 bonus against sleep, paralysis, and stun effects, and can ignore difficult terrain
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+20') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +4/+4/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Gorgon's Fist (DC 17) Standard action: stagger a target whose speed is reduced.
High Jump (+6/+26 with Ki point) (Ex) +6 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Scorpion Style (DC 17) Standard action: Unarmed strike also reduces target's land speed to 5'
Slow Fall 30' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (6/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.

Now compare to a sword & Board fighter:

Fighter:

Fighter Test Level 6
Male Human (Varisian) Fighter 6
NN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 25, touch 12, flat-footed 23 (+10 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 52 (6d10+12)
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +6 (+2 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities Bravery +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee Light Shield Bash +8/+3 (1d4+4/x2) and
. . +1 Mithral Scimitar +11/+6 (1d6+8/18-20/x2)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16/18, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 9
Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 22 (26 vs. Disarm, 26 vs. Trip)
Feats Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Power Attack -2/+4, Shield Focus, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Outlander - Exile
Skills Acrobatics -1 (-5 jump), Climb +9, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +4, Perception +7, Ride +3, Stealth -1, Survival +5, Swim +6
Languages Common, Varisian
Combat Gear +1 Full plate, +1 Mithral Scimitar, +1 Shield Spikes Light steel shield; Other Gear Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +2
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 Will save vs. Fear
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades

...and it's no contest to the fighter, really. Sure, the monk has a few skills and abilities the fighter doesn't, but the fighter is the gold standard. The fighter has more of everything in combat, that's the issue: more attacks, better attacks, better damage, better AC, better hit points. The monk is only matching him (barely) in AC.

[johnlocke90]

wraithstrike wrote:

Sounds like a high powered game which really does not help the monk. Was this an epic level game?

edit:This was for Johnlocke.

We were level 14-16 at the time.

[wraithstrike]

It seems to be a herolab error anyway. He probably just assumed the numbers would be correct, and did not check them.

[Dabbler]

I do that all the time.

[Horbagh]

shallowsoul wrote:

"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 5th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)

Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:20
Cha:5

AC: 19
20 (Using Dodge)
23 (Versus Giants)
24 (Using Dodge vs Giants)

HP: 5d8 + 10
Spd: 30
Fort: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +9 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)

Attack: Flurry: +7/+7/Spend a Ki Point for another +7: 1d8 + 3
Shortswords: +7/+7 Spend Ki Point +7: 1d6 +3

Feats: Scorpion Style, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 17 2/day (Fatigued), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic), Slow Fall 20ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity,
Skills: Acrobatics: +7, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +10, Sense Motive: +10, Stealth: +7, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +1, Masterwork Cold Iron Shortsword, Masterwork Silver Shortsword.

I spent my stat increase on Int so he can take the Combat Expertise feats. Also, this is just a standard build using the main book. This character may not be the best but he's not useless. I've been looking over creatures around this PC's level and he can hit.

This guy looks like a standard core monk so I think he's a good example. I don't know what's up with scorpion style or why perception isn't maxed out and I'm assuming you meant kama instead of shortsword but it's close enough.

I punched his exact stats into the spreadsheet and he does 8 DPR against an AC 18 opponent. By comparison a dual wielding fighter does about 13 so not a big deal considering the perks a monk gets. That's 62% of the fighter's damage.

Now lets look ahead a few levels. At level 10 the monk does 24 DPR against a CR appropriate AC (24) and the fighter does 42. That's 57% damage.

At level 15 against AC 30 we get: monk 48, fighter 107 (48%). Also note that at this level the fighter has a 75% chance per round of landing at least one crit (compared to the monk's 25%) and has the BAB requirement to afford the rather amazing critical debuff effects.

At level 20 against AC 36 (that's a balor for reference) we get: monk 74, fighter 174 (42%, because of the very powerful fighter capstone). Once step more... let's say neither the fighter nor the monk can beat the balor's DR (in practice the fighter will because he has +5 weapons and the monk won't because AoMF doesn't trump DR like real weapons do). Now we get monk 29, fighter 90 (32%). See how the monks proportional DPR drops as you add in DR?

Also, I haven't run the numbers myself but from everything I've read, two weapon fighters are pretty much outclassed by power attacking greatsword types so this whole exercise is comparing an optimal monk build to a suboptimal fighter build. So if you think the proportional loss of DPR as you level is worth the monk features you'll think the monk is fine. Personally I think the monk numbers should come up a little bit (to about 66-75% of my kukri fighter) and that would be about right. That's about the same ratio your 5th level example monk is at right now and I agree, with that character at level 5 you should still feel like you're contributing to combat even if the barbarian has you soundly beat in the damage department.

[Eben TheQuiet]

So we have a "mediocre"-built dwarf monk who seems to be able to contribute somewhat consistently if played intelligently against CR-equivalent opponents @ level 5.

Is that the consensus?

If so, and since the contention has been that level 5 is the monk's sweet spot, should we kick it up to level 11 or 12 and see how he fares against CR-eqiuvalent opponents?

EDIT: oof... ninja'd in a big way by Horbagh. O.o

[wraithstrike]

Eben I offered some rules for a 13 level since we already did that in another thread. That means since the monsters are already chosen from a few months ago, there is no way to cherry pick based on how SS builds such a monk.

He will even be assumed to be getting access to haste to see how that helps.

[Eben TheQuiet]

Then I look forward to seeing the results... or are they already up somewhere?

[Horbagh]

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

So we have a "mediocre"-built dwarf monk who seems to be able to contribute somewhat consistently if played intelligently against CR-equivalent opponents @ level 5.

Is that the consensus?

If so, and since the contention has been that level 5 is the monk's sweet spot, should we kick it up to level 11 or 12 and see how he fares against CR-eqiuvalent opponents?

EDIT: oof... ninja'd in a big way by Horbagh. O.o

Pardon my wall of text. :)

But yeah, what Wraithstrike said... there's a thread where this horse was beaten to death with several flavors of monks up against several flavors of monsters. The consensus was pretty much that a monk can be good at not dying but he isn't really helping the party out much either. On the bright side, he usually gets eaten last by the dragon!

[wraithstrike]

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

Then I look forward to seeing the results... or are they already up somewhere?

Yes. I will provoke you a few links.

The will be to the monk builds used, the barbarian build, and the actual encounters. It might take a few minutes though. I will be sending them to your inbox. :)

I don't want anyone building just to fight the encounters. That keeps it fair if anyone accepts the challenge.

[Dabbler]

We will be able to compare with the builds we made too.

[Eben TheQuiet]

I'm kicking around the spreadsheet now...

[Horbagh]

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

I'm kicking around the spreadsheet now...

Here's the macro code if you want to make your own copy to play with. It's highly.... not optimal (don't judge me!) but it works.

Spoiler:

function parseDiceString( diceString ) {
var tokens = diceString.toUpperCase().split('D');

var diceAndSize = new Array();
diceAndSize.push( parseInt( tokens[0] ) );
diceAndSize.push( parseInt( tokens[1] ) );

return diceAndSize;
}

function probTwoWeaponRend( rangeIn ) {
var probMissAll = 1.0;

for( var i = 0; i < rangeIn.length; ++i ) {
probMissAll *= ( 1 - rangeIn[i] );
}

var probHitOne = 0;

for( var hitAttack = 0; hitAttack < rangeIn.length; ++hitAttack )
{
prob = 1.0;

for( var attack = 0; attack < rangeIn.length; ++attack )
{
if( attack == hitAttack ) {
prob *= ( rangeIn[attack] );
} else {
prob *= ( 1 - rangeIn[attack] );
}
}

probHitOne += prob;
}

return 1 - probMissAll - probHitOne;
};

function probNoCrit( rangeIn ) {
var noCrit = 1.0;

for( var i = 0; i < rangeIn.length; ++i ) {
if( rangeIn[i] ) {
noCrit *= ( 1 - rangeIn[i] );
}
}

return noCrit;
};

function damageVsDR( diceString, damageBonus, multiplier, DR ) {
var diceAndSize = parseDiceString( diceString );

var nDice = diceAndSize[0];
var dieSize = diceAndSize[1];

var expectedDamage = 0;

for ( i = 1; i < dieSize + 1; ++i ) {
expectedDamage += ( 1.0 / dieSize ) * Math.max( multiplier * i * nDice + multiplier * damageBonus - DR, 0 );
}

return expectedDamage;
};

[Eben TheQuiet]

Lol. I meant "kicking around IN the spreadsheet now"... I'll probably let you guys run the numbers as you've been doing them for a while. I'm just familiarizing myself ith the system you guys used to run the comparisons. :)

[Dabbler]

I just crunched the numbers manually.

[shallowsoul]

Krigare wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 5th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)

Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:20
Cha:5

AC: 19
20 (Using Dodge)
23 (Versus Giants)
24 (Using Dodge vs Giants)

HP: 5d8 + 10
Spd: 30
Fort: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +6 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +9 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)

Attack: Flurry: +7/+7/Spend a Ki Point for another +7: 1d8 + 3
Shortswords: +7/+7 Spend Ki Point +7: 1d6 +3

Feats: Scorpion Style, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 17 2/day (Fatigued), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic), Slow Fall 20ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity,
Skills: Acrobatics: +7, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +10, Sense Motive: +10, Stealth: +7, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +1, Masterwork Cold Iron Shortsword, Masterwork Silver Shortsword.

I spent my stat increase on Int so he can take the Combat Expertise feats. Also, this is just a standard build using the main book. This character may not be the best but he's not useless. I've been looking over creatures around this PC's level and he can hit.

You've got your attack bonuses wrong...

Either that or you factored magic items into your stats. Either way, you still can't flurry with short swords, at least not according to my CRB. Admittedly, at level 5 that's a non issue, I don't think anyone says monks don't contribute at low levels, although as the spooky one pointed out, your at less than a 50% hit chance, and your ability to scout is sub-par. Also, for the level, your saves are barely at a minimum threshold for survival, and maybe not even that ( the typical wizard I play equals your fort save at this level,...

Just change Shortsword to Kama and he can flurry with them.