Can you still call Erastil Lawful Good while defending it, Bill Dunn?
Absolutely. A little sexism or any other form of social hierarchy (aristocracy, plutocracy, matriarchy, patriarchy, theocracy, even meritocracy) does not disqualify you from being good - though I would say that it tends to support the lawful end of things.
|
I think people mainly get bothered when certain aspects of Erastil get emphasized more than they're supposed to be. If the images Erastil brings up for someone resemble A Handmaid's Tale, something has gone off the rails somewhere. This can sometimes happen when GMs/groups overemphasize sexist elements in their Golarion, treating it as normalized for Erastilians, and bugging the hell out of players coming in with different expectations.
Personally Torag is the one who's really questionable, considering his paladin code and behavior in ADVENTURE NAME REDACTED.
Edit-Looks like the posts this post should have followed just up and disappeared. Should this one go too?
Paladin of Asmodeus! Try calling HIM "flaky," but let me know before you do. I wanna watch. (It kills my post that I can't remember the source, but I totally did just read about Asmodeus allowing a very rare paladin.)
Paladin of Asmodeus! Try calling HIM "flaky," but let me know before you do. I wanna watch. (It kills my post that I can't remember the source, but I totally did just read about Asmodeus allowing a very rare paladin.)
That was one of those things that got through before they'd fully gotten a handle on how they wanted Golarion to work - it has since been retconned out of existence (which obviously shouldn't stop someone from using it in their home campaign if the GM is fine with it).
|
|
Paladin of Asmodeus! Try calling HIM "flaky," but let me know before you do. I wanna watch. (It kills my post that I can't remember the source, but I totally did just read about Asmodeus allowing a very rare paladin.)That was one of those things that got through before they'd fully gotten a handle on how they wanted Golarion to work - it has since been retconned out of existence (which obviously shouldn't stop someone from using it in their home campaign if the GM is fine with it).
IIRC, the Hellknight Signifer entry in Paths of Prestige makes a reference to that, casting "Asmodean paladins" as slang or a misnomer for Signifers. IIRC.
|
Erastil strikes me as a lot like Hershel Greene from The Walking Dead; more comfortable with old ways and tradition, teaching his children to live within those rules, not that they all do or will. He still loves them anyway (and Erastil wouldn't keep zombies in the barn).
Other non flaky deity that is chaotic but otherwise that fits your needs is Milani. She is my personal choice for among the goodest of the good, as far as dieties go. Dwarven deities work well too.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I must admit, unless you're playing a Paladin and absolutely cannot choose a chaotic deity, I'd take a close look at Desna.
I didn't used to be a big fan of hers, since she originally struck me as sort of "the adventuring goddess of adventurers... and butterflies. Sparkly!" But since looking at more Desna-specific fluff, I've found her more appealing.
A big part of that is that, in a way, she seems like perhaps the "nicest", or at least most easy-going deity. Her commandments essentially seem to boil down to "go out and enjoy life, and don't sweat the small stuff!" She doesn't ask much of her followers except that they maintain a sense of wonder and experience all the world has to offer without becoming jaded or cynical.
Because of their attraction to the wondrous and exciting, its' easy to dismiss Desna's followers as naive, but they're really not. Experiencing the world doesn't just mean going and looking a pretty things; it means... well... becoming more experienced. Somebody who adventures with a follower of Desna might roll their eyes when the priest stops to gaze in wide-eyed fascination at a breathtaking new vista during a long wilderness trek. They'll be singing a different tune, though, when that same priest spots the subtle markers of an Ettercap deathtrap or a goblin ambush, having encountered that sort of thing before in their long travels.
In a sense, I kind of feel like Desna might be the wisest of the core deities, in that she encourages people to take the good with the bad, learn from their successes and failures and, most importantly, to take the time to stop and smell the flowers every once in a while. Younger good deities (I'm looking at you, Iomedae) sometimes seem so wrapped up in saving the world that they don't take the time to appreciate the things that are worth saving.
I definitely dislike Sarenrae, Desna, & Cayden. I also have pet peeves that make me avoid Pharasma, Gozreh, Nethys, and Callistria. So those are all off the table for me.
|
|
Wow, you are picky :P
Out of the major deities you haven't rejected so far:
Irori has some followers in Varisia, and while he is very lawful (which, as I recall, is a turn-off for you) he's more about self-control and discipline than obeying or enforcing any of the laws of man. While he's not good and I wouldn't necessarily describe him as "nice," he does seem to generally be described as understanding and accepting. He requires that his followers seek perfection, but he understands that it's okay if they don't reach it in this lifetime, and he doesn't mind if they choose to seek it through a different path than he did in life (i.e. you don't have to be a monk).
Other than that... hmm... well, there's always Lamashtu. She's not mean, really! She just wants everybody to be part of her big, happy, monstrously deformed family! Sure her children can be... rambunctious, from time to time, but... well... kids will be kids!
Yeah, I am definitely picky.
Anyway, its looking like I am ok with a lot of the Empyreal lords, and with some squirming, I can find one or two actual deities tolerable. So I thank you all. :)
Nobody stopped by to mention Torag?
Torag is a lawful good god of dwarves.
That should be enough to dispel notions of flaky or chaotic.
"Torag (pronounced TORR-awg) is a stoic and serious god who values honor, planning and well-made steel. He is an often distant deity, lending magical power to his clerics, but leaving his followers to make their own way through life, knowing that this will make them strong and determined."
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sarenrae is too much of a zealot for me; or too many of her followers are. Too much like my daily life. ;)
As for Shelyn, I dont mean that she is weaksauce, so much as I meant that her portfolio is. Love, beauty, poetry and art (or whatever) are things I cant really get too excited about. Plus, the whole "flowers of peace; or else glaive to the face" reminds me too much of what I dont like about Sarenrae.
I have no idea who Granny Weatherwax is.
As for Iomedae, she is ok, but her portfolio and attitude are a bit too rigid for me.
I will look into Qi Zhong.
But yeah, I have always struggled with the non-evil Pathfinder gods. I can usually find plenty of deities in a setting that have a workable vibe for me, but its like the various people who designed the Golarion gods happened to really like the 3 or 4 pet peeves I have about deities, and build at least one of those traits into most of the non-evil main gods. Just bad luck I guess. :)
A few of the lesser or obscure ones, and several of the Empyreal lords, do seem to work for me tho. I was hoping to discover some I had overlooked. No matter how many times I crawl through the wiki, I come across a cool/obscure one I have missed.
As an aside, whats the diff in the two wiki sites? Pathfinder.wikia vs pathfinderwiki?
Thanks for your replies.
Animation, just so you know Sarenrae is not a zealot.
I posted this question april 16 2011"“Known to her faithful as the Dawnflower, the Healing Flame, and the Everlight, Sarenrae (pronounced SAER-en-ray[1]) teaches temperance and patience in all things. Compassion and peace are her greatest virtues, and if enemies of the faith can be redeemed, they should be. Yet there are those who have no interest in redemption, who glory in slaughter and death. From the remorseless evil of the undead and fiends to the cruelties born in the hearts of mortals, Sarenrae's doctrines preach swift justice delivered by the scimitar's edge. To this end, she expects her faithful to be skilled at swordplay, both as a form of martial art promoting centering of mind and body, and so that when they do enter battle, their foes do not suffer any longer than necessary
The church of Sarenrae is mostly composed of altruistic priests who are also ready to be stern should it be warranted. The church is known for blessing crops, healing the sick, and reforming criminals and evil doers. They are often consulted to solve feuds and disputes among neighbors and family. [4] The Empire of Kelesh holds her as their patron deity and is responsible for spreading her faith throughout the Inner Sea.[6]”
Cut and pasted form the “galoriapedia.
Slavery
“ No discussion of Qadiran Trade is complete without Mentioning the buying and seling of slaves….Portions of the markets of all major cities are dedicated to the sale of sentient beings as if they were so much cattle” Page 7 of Pathfinder Companion: Qadira Gateway to the East.
Now I see a contradiction. We have Qadira whos main faith is Sarenrae, and one of her major tenents is redemption. How then can slavery be such an integral part of this society? Wouldn’t the clergy of Sarenrae try to dissuade the trafficking of sentients?
Im just curious. Perhaps there lies an answer in our own history.
What do all of you think? How can the church and faith of Sarenrae co exist with the slave trade?"
Here was the response James Jacobs posted to my question.
"Sarenrae herself, and her church, does not tolerate slavery, but nor do they preach "Kill the slavers!" They would certainly look for non-violent ways to seek a slave's freedom—purchasing the slave and setting the slave free is probably the preferred method.
Now that said, there's a wide range of individual variations among the specific worshipers of Sarenrae—as with ANY religion. There are some worshipers of Sarenrae who would, perhaps, seek to simply comfort slaves if possible, espcially if they see the alternative (living on your own with no support structure in a dangerous city) is more painfula nd dangerous than slavery itself. There's ABSOLUTELY some worshipers of Sarenrae who crusade against slavery and slavers themselves and DO use violence against the slavers.
Now, as for Qadira? It's important to keep two things in mind about Sarenrae's faith being the most widespread faith in Qadira:
1) It's not in charge. The government of Qadira is richer and more powerful than the church of Sarenrae in Qadira, and as a result, the government is the one that gets to say if slaves are legal or not. The church has to either go along with that or rebel, and in Qadira's case, the church has opted to go along with it.
2) The church of Sarenrae in Qadira is NOT the most faithful of all of Sarenrae's churches. In fact, it's one of the most corrupt of her churches, because they've more or less lost sight of the "redeem your enemies" and "peace is better than war." Over the course of many generations, the church of Sarenrae in Qadira has become militarized, basically, and they're a lot more pro-war than they should be—but not SO pro-war that the chruch is in immediate danger of losing all their clerical powers. This church's tolerance of slaves in Qadira is but one of many examples of how the church is straying from Sarenrae's path. It's also why there's a schism building among the church, as a growing number of worshipers are coming to realize that things have somehow gone sour in the faith here. But an outright rebellion would tear the church apart, cause massive unrest in the faith AND in the nation, and could even start a Qadiran civil war—which is exactly the type of thing the true worshiper of Sarenrae DOESN'T want. So the actual honest worshipers of Sarenrae in Qadira are sort of caught in a terrible spot—either stand up for the actual teachings of their goddess and risk tearing their church apart, or stay quiet and risk letting the church stray that one final bit that finally forces Sarenrae to take action against the church.
All of this is set up to give a really interesting political angle to the church, honestly—it'd be super easy to just paint Sarenrae's church as a "can do no wrong" set of do-gooders, but this is, in my opinion, a far more interesting and realistic portrayal of the corruption of power. And it's got built into it the seeds of a really interesting-sounding campaign!" James Jacobs post April 16 2011
So Sarenrae herself, is not a zealot who sees things in black and white, some of her worshipers such as her church in Qadira are a bit zealous, while others in her faith are not.
After James Jacob's post, i find Sarenrae to be a much more interesting then before.
I hope this helps
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think people mainly get bothered when certain aspects of Erastil get emphasized more than they're supposed to be. If the images Erastil brings up for someone resemble A Handmaid's Tale, something has gone off the rails somewhere. This can sometimes happen when GMs/groups overemphasize sexist elements in their Golarion, treating it as normalized for Erastilians, and bugging the hell out of players coming in with different expectations.
Personally Torag is the one who's really questionable, considering his paladin code and behavior in ADVENTURE NAME REDACTED.
Edit-Looks like the posts this post should have followed just up and disappeared. Should this one go too?
I must say that I LOVE having Good Gods who don't fit modern sensibilities on what Good should be. Same for Neutral ones (cf Groetus and Gorum)
I definitely do not want my PCs' setting to have to conform to Political Correctness.
Elyas,
I dont find that convincing. If anything, the stuff you posted just emphasizes what I dont like and reminds me too much of my own cultural religions, even if the details differ. Too close to home.
Black raven,
Paladin Pimps FTW. :)
/jk
Nobody's brought up Arshea yet?
I like Arshea, actually, there just doesnt seem to be much info on hir.
The church of Sarenrae in Qadira is NOT the most faithful of all of Sarenrae's churches. In fact, it's one of the most corrupt of her churches, because they've more or less lost sight of the "redeem your enemies" and "peace is better than war."
It is, however, if not the largest of Sarenrae's churches, certainly among the largest, bringing up the question of to what degree is any of Sarenrae's churches the "most faithful."
It may be the "most faithful" of Sarenrae's churches is some little roadside shrine tended by some old granny in some far-flung corner of Qadira, and the old granny is the only person in Qadira or even all of Golarion who actually got the message right. Or this little shrine might be a hidden one in somebody's wardrobe in Taldor. Or wherever.
It's also a question of granulation: What comprises a church? The clergy? The laity? And of the laity, are we talking devout churchgoers, those who attend services on the big holy days, or just anyone who checked off "Sarenrae" on their belief form and the extent of their worship consists of saying, "May the Dawnflower's light fall upon you!" whenever they conclude a business transaction to buy or sell a slave?
And what exactly does the goddess of mercy and redemption do with worshipers who drank the Qadiran Kool-Aid and devoutly believed that tithing 10% of their income to the Qadiran war fund--declared a charity, since it spreads the Dawnflower's light--would forgive all their sins, not that breaking slaves or making boys into eunuchs is listed as a sin anyway? Pharasma is going "It's evil, but it says it's one of yours. Do you want it? Or do I send it to Asmodeus to be ground up for new devils?"
And what exactly does the goddess of mercy and redemption do with worshipers who drank the Qadiran Kool-Aid and devoutly believed that tithing 10% of their income to the Qadiran war fund--declared a charity, since it spreads the Dawnflower's light--would forgive all their sins, not that breaking slaves or making boys into eunuchs is listed as a sin anyway? Pharasma is going "It's evil, but it says it's one of yours. Do you want it? Or do I send it to Asmodeus to be ground up for new devils?"it? Or do I send it to Asmodeus to be ground up for new devils?"It's not an answer that the common people or even most of the priesthood know. For her own reasons Sarenrae has not seen fit to take any action on the beliefs of her Qadiran priesthood. Like most questions of this matter, the answer to that will depend on the believer, and they generally have no choice but to pick one based on faith. As to what the diety is actually doing... It's not really a question that has to be readily answered by the DM, in fact unless you're talking high level planar version of a campaign as opposed to a more gritty down to earth campaign, it may never have to be answered at all.
It also explains why so many souls are stacking up in the Boneyard ready and available for resurrection--Pharasma's waiting for clarifications from the gods which never come, so she just delays judgement until Sarenrae gives her a straight answer.
|
|
The church of Sarenrae in Qadira is NOT the most faithful of all of Sarenrae's churches. In fact, it's one of the most corrupt of her churches, because they've more or less lost sight of the "redeem your enemies" and "peace is better than war."It is, however, if not the largest of Sarenrae's churches, certainly among the largest, bringing up the question of to what degree is any of Sarenrae's churches the "most faithful."
It may be the "most faithful" of Sarenrae's churches is some little roadside shrine tended by some old granny in some far-flung corner of Qadira, and the old granny is the only person in Qadira or even all of Golarion who actually got the message right. Or this little shrine might be a hidden one in somebody's wardrobe in Taldor. Or wherever.
It's also a question of granulation: What comprises a church? The clergy? The laity? And of the laity, are we talking devout churchgoers, those who attend services on the big holy days, or just anyone who checked off "Sarenrae" on their belief form and the extent of their worship consists of saying, "May the Dawnflower's light fall upon you!" whenever they conclude a business transaction to buy or sell a slave?
And what exactly does the goddess of mercy and redemption do with worshipers who drank the Qadiran Kool-Aid and devoutly believed that tithing 10% of their income to the Qadiran war fund--declared a charity, since it spreads the Dawnflower's light--would forgive all their sins, not that breaking slaves or making boys into eunuchs is listed as a sin anyway? Pharasma is going "It's evil, but it says it's one of yours. Do you want it? Or do I send it to Asmodeus to be ground up for new devils?"
Kevin, Thank you, "pharasma going "its evil but it says its one of yours? do you want it or do i send it to Asmodeus to be ground up for new demons?" very funny thanks.
Well I guess after taking Sarenrae, her quesitonable Qadiran church, the Gold Dragon with the human Eugenics program, etc, I think the writers are giving us some ambiguity to chew on. If everything were cut and dried, starkly black and white, without any tones of grey to fill out the image. and also it gives us the GMs some room to interpret.
If this isn't cool, someone let me know. This is from Faiths of Purity, which for now is our best source on her, I think. Description of her followers seems like it would fit Varisians pretty well.
is most popular among the dispossessed and weary. She
provides comfort to the weak and bound, showing them a
way to regain their strength and escape their shackles. Her
alignment is neutral good, and her domains are Charm,
Good, Liberation, and Strength. If you follow Arshea, you
wear flowing silk scarves about your person and move
with grace; your ultimate goal is to show the possibilities
of freedom to those who are suffering, whether physically,
mentally, or spiritually. Your congregation is ad hoc; your
priests are those whose expressive dances can open the
keys of shackles or minds. Your greeting to one another
is an intricate, four-part bow, and you can sometimes tell
other worshipers by the flails they wield—symbolically
turning the slavers’ scourges back on them.
Have you considered Milani? The CG goddes of uprising, devotion, and Hope?
I had a great time playing a Paladin of Arshea. Tireless Warrior for Freedom! Also sex.
|
As an aside, whats the diff in the two wiki sites? Pathfinder.wikia vs pathfinderwiki?
Wikia started forcing all of their wikis to do a complete layout overhaul (which messed up the look of many of our templates/pages), among other things, in 2010. At this time we, as well as many other wikis, found the changes to not be to our liking, and left (see Here to read one of the many discussions we had about it). As we already had www.pathfinderwiki.com under our own ownership, we decided to split from wikia so that we would have the creative flexibility to do what we want.
The Pathfinderwiki one is the more active one. It is policed for spam, actively updated, has twice as much content, won a Gold Ennie this year, and has an active community willing to answer many questions both about Canon and about the wiki itself. Most of the editing of the wikia version this year has been spelling mistakes, or a direct copy/paste from the books, so needed to be backed out.
I love Golarion's gods !
I love Erastil !
IIRC, the Hellknight Signifer entry in Paths of Prestige makes a reference to that, casting "Asmodean paladins" as slang or a misnomer for Signifers. IIRC.Paladin of Asmodeus! Try calling HIM "flaky," but let me know before you do. I wanna watch. (It kills my post that I can't remember the source, but I totally did just read about Asmodeus allowing a very rare paladin.)That was one of those things that got through before they'd fully gotten a handle on how they wanted Golarion to work - it has since been retconned out of existence (which obviously shouldn't stop someone from using it in their home campaign if the GM is fine with it).
That's brilliant if true.
It sounds like you want a NG deity-like figure that's all about spreading niceness?
How would zealousness fit into that? If they're a bit too motivated with spreading mirth and joy, you don't want to have a character worship her?
Cheapy ... Spreading niceness? No. I just dont want to follow gods that are vengeful or overly zealous.
NPC ... I dont like Milani due to the fact that uprisings and revolutions and hanging about looking to sew unrest in the name of freedom seems a bit parasitic to me, if not downright creepy.
Kyra ... I do like Arshea. As usual, the ones I can swallow (um ..) are Empyreal Lords. I find most of the actual gods to be not to my liking.
The gods in this setting are probably not for you. Even the kindest ones have a zealous edge to them, and are more in line with the real world in that regard than most worlds, where gods tend to be defined by one or two aspects at most. The gods in Golarion are more likely to mirror the behaviors of their followers than those of most worlds. If you're looking for a "nice" god without a dark streak of any kind, you'll need to import one probably; these gods are much more practical and multidimensional.
Personally, I like the Golarion gods; there's enough of them to cover all the important bases while not having to resort to more and more niche gods to fit certain concepts. The fact that most, if not all, of them have two different aspects fits the world concept well, and makes them a lot more interesting overall than the deluge of gods common in other settings, though I can understand that it can be hard to find a god that fits a specific concept. Your best option is to pick a god that's close and downplay the aspects you don't care for as much; you could even introduce different sects that focus on individual aspects that have ongoing rivalries. In the end, focusing on a single idea and finding a god to fit it may not be the best option for you; this world is simply not setup that way.
Sunshadow ... I find plenty of gods that have the right temperment, especially if I count empyreal lords as gods in this context. However, they just arent the ones whose alignments or portfolios match my interests, unfortunately.
Its like going to a sandwich shop and being unable to find a sandwich that does have jalapeno but that isnt pork. If I want jalapeno, I am good to go, so long as I also want pork. If, I want chicken, cool deal but they dont put jalapeno on the chicken at Golarion Tortas & Subs. :)
Thanks for the reply.
Than, stick with the temperment, change the alignment and/or portfolios, and possibly slap a new name on it, assuming you're playing a home campaign. The great thing about this game is that as a DM, you can make whatever you want from the source material.
While I cannot relate to a single issue the OP appears to have, I'll just say this: Nothing stops you from importing deities at will. It isn't even like some settings where deity spheres of influence aren't allowed to overlap.
Now, Golarion is the first setting where I haven't felt compelled to do so, but if you want to rip off, say, Torm from Forgotten Realms, Ezra from Ravenloft, or any and all real-world deities you'd prefer, go for it. The setting has room for 'em.
This thread is probably dead but, hey now I'm curious. What did you decide on?
|
Anyway, I do think Qi Zhong is cool. I like his portfolios and interests. But for a Varisian Human, since Qi Zhong is a Tian Xia god, he is culturally as awkward a choice for a varisian human to worship as would be a dwarf or elf god. I do like him. I also kinda like Ylimancha and Soralyon. Soralyon has monuments in the portfolio list, which is unexciting, but otherwise seems ok.
Culturally awkward but not impossible. There IS a significant number of Tien immigrants in Varisia that could have imported Qi Zhong's worship with them. There's the Kaijitsus, for example, who have a manor and presence in Magnimar.