Both the prestige class and the type? Once upon a time in 3.0 it was slightly silly if abused (although less stupid than spelldancers and incantrix's). 3.5 nerfed the prestige class so that it was really weak espicially with the buff power attack got for two handed weapons. The duelist archtype (1 weapon usually light, empty other hand) though recieved some feat support and the Swashbuckler class which had insigtful strike (int bonus to damage).
PF roles around and the Duelist seems to be nerfed yet again with no bonus dice to damage although you do get to add your class level to damage (yay). Two handed weapons were buffed again with changes to power attack and stong feat support. Duelists don't seem to get much. No int or dex to damage except Danching Dervish feat for scimitars.
I tweaked some stuff from 3.5 and converted the swashbucklers insightful strike over and added improved weapon finesse along with a feat from 3.5 that lets rogue and fighter levels stack for sneak attack and fighter feat requirements. By level 7 the duelist in my game using a rapier will get to add dex and int to damage, and have 4d6 sneak attack due to a very intensive feat chain. The archtype is still outclassed by a two handed weapon for damage, has a similar AC due to plate armoe vs light armor. They do have a higher dex though for skills and ranged attacks.
Was the 3.5 duelist broken in some way I'm not familiar with? At its worst at level 17 with 1 levels of duelist I have a hard time imagining it to be broken compared to timestop, gate, shapechange etc. Its hard to have a cinimatic fight in pathfinder when two greatsword/falcion/greataxe etc users go head to head. A critical hit or full attack will probably end the fight very soon in 1-2 rounds. The old 3.0 duelist would actually win vs a great sword user but he may take 5-10 rounds to do it depending on things like full attacks.
dude, have you seen the riposte class feature?
Check out the Pathfinder RPG take on "dervish", be it the archetypes or Dervish Dance feat, and you'll see where a lot of the support for "duelist types" went.
Also, I've seen plenty of good archetypes from just the APG that help "einhanders".
I guess I'm not seeing the same things you're seeing, OP.
+10 damage when you crit is not as good as +4d6 bonus dice all of the time.
Theres things like the Dancing Devish Feat and Aldori Bladelord but they are limited to specific weapons.
From what I'm reading, the Duelist's Precise Strike is for any attack, not just critical hits.
Generally speaking, people on the boards believe that flat bonuses are better than extra dice. It does has its advantages, like no RNG and it can be multiplied by a crit. General rule of thumb is that flat bonuses (Power Attack, Strength, Arcane Strike) multiply while dice (Sneak Attack, Vital Strike) do not. So while the +10 doesn't have the same potential high damage as 4d6, it is more reliable and overall will get you more damage on a crit. If you're using an 18-20 weapon (like a rapier), and it's keen or you have Improved Critical, that's a 15-20 crit. That's a 1/4 chance to get a crit off. Not bad at all.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Duelist was actually buffed in Pathfinder, as they were given the ability to use their Canny Defense with light armor, something they previously lacked. Their Parry, Riposte, and Elaborate Defense abilities are also potent, especially when combined with something like the Crane Style series of feats. That flat +10 to damage may seem underwhelming, but it's a flat damage boost that's multipled on a crit, far more powerful than 3d6 that doesn't get multiplied.
I have a Rogue/Duelist who's a fantastic skill monkey and a damage dealing beast. By 18th level he had an AC that no published monster could hit on anything less than a 20, and the ability to just flat out negate the attack on the off chance they do roll a 20.
And that was a character built on a 20 point buy using strict WBL.
Duelist is far from nerfed.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
On the contrary, I've seen it do very well in campaigns. I think though that a duelist will do better in an urban setting where there are more humanoid creatures. Out in the wilderness, he may have a little trouble against larger creatures, although can still perform well. I had a duelist in my Kingmaker game that kicked a great deal of ass. But I guess for me, I always imagine a duelist more in an urban setting than out in the wilderness and dungeon. *shrug*
|
|
On the contrary, I've seen it do very well in campaigns. I think though that a duelist will do better in an urban setting where there are more humanoid creatures. Out in the wilderness, he may have a little trouble against larger creatures, although can still perform well. I had a duelist in my Kingmaker game that kicked a great deal of ass. But I guess for me, I always imagine a duelist more in an urban setting than out in the wilderness and dungeon. *shrug*
Duelists do work best in an Urban setting. They also complement a Rogue with DEX primary and INT secondary best, followed by combat bards and then other melee classes. It even notes right in the class text that these are the most complementary classes. Most people who feel the Duelist is under-powered are trying to pair it up with the wrong builds.
I personally find it to be one of the best ways to transition rogues into fully melee capable characters.|
|
On the contrary, I've seen it do very well in campaigns. I think though that a duelist will do better in an urban setting where there are more humanoid creatures. Out in the wilderness, he may have a little trouble against larger creatures, although can still perform well. I had a duelist in my Kingmaker game that kicked a great deal of ass. But I guess for me, I always imagine a duelist more in an urban setting than out in the wilderness and dungeon. *shrug*it depends. A duelist with crane wings laughs at one-heavy-hit monsters (like a T-rex).
This^
Also, if you want a Duelist to make your fighter more Rogue-like, it's a sub-par class. If you want a duelist to make your Rogue/Bard/Monk more fighter-like without giving up your Rogue utility, it's fantastic. There are even some fun Magus builds that can see a lot of use out of the Duelist PrC.
On the contrary, I've seen it do very well in campaigns. I think though that a duelist will do better in an urban setting where there are more humanoid creatures. Out in the wilderness, he may have a little trouble against larger creatures, although can still perform well. I had a duelist in my Kingmaker game that kicked a great deal of ass. But I guess for me, I always imagine a duelist more in an urban setting than out in the wilderness and dungeon. *shrug*it depends. A duelist with crane wings laughs at one-heavy-hit monsters (like a T-rex).This^
Also, if you want a Duelist to make your fighter more Rogue-like, it's a sub-par class. If you want a duelist to make your Rogue/Bard/Monk more fighter-like without giving up your Rogue utility, it's fantastic. There are even some fun Magus builds that can see a lot of use out of the Duelist PrC.
Actually, the player I had was a fighter turned duelest (Freehand Fighter) and he did really well. Rocked a lot of face.
EDIT: Looking over his sheet, he was actually a free hand fighter. whoops.
When I said duelist sucked I suppose I was comparing it to the 3.0 one or to two handed weapons in Pathfinder. +10 damage at lvl 17 is about how much damage a THW user is doing at level 3-5 maybe even one. 3.5 had the swashbuckler option which allowed you to add intelligence to damage.
+10 damage at lvl 17 is about how much damage a THW user is doing at level 3-5 maybe even one.You mean different fighting styles do different amounts of damage? Imagine that.
Its not that they deal different amounts of damage but THF deals so much more and at alot lower level. Throw in things like Keen falchion and it is absurd by comparison espicially at low levels.
Its not that they deal different amounts of damage but THF deals so much more and at alot lower level. Throw in things like Keen falchion and it is absurd by comparison espicially at low levels.+10 damage at lvl 17 is about how much damage a THW user is doing at level 3-5 maybe even one.You mean different fighting styles do different amounts of damage? Imagine that.
First of all there isn't such a thing as 'low level duelist' as you need to be level 7 before you can even enter into the class. Also Duelists are much more defensive then THFs. Int to AC, With Crane Style feat chain fighting defensively is -1 to hit with +6 AC. Parry/Ripost, Crane Wing/Ripost (with feats), Deflect Arrow, +8 AC against some AoOs. Not to mention some decent offensive bonouses - charging over difficult terrain, AoO if an opponent withdraws, your choice of a critical effect, Duelist level in damage.
Anyone considering rogue should probably go Ninja instead. The ki pool works so well with Duelist.
First of all there isn't such a thing as 'low level duelist' as you need to be level 7 before you can even enter into the class. Also Duelists are much more defensive then THFs. Int to AC, With Crane Style feat chain fighting defensively is -1 to hit with +6 AC. Parry/Ripost, Crane Wing/Ripost (with feats), Deflect Arrow, +8 AC against some AoOs. Not to mention some decent offensive bonouses - charging over difficult terrain, AoO if an opponent withdraws, your choice of a critical effect, Duelist level in damage.Its not that they deal different amounts of damage but THF deals so much more and at alot lower level. Throw in things like Keen falchion and it is absurd by comparison espicially at low levels.+10 damage at lvl 17 is about how much damage a THW user is doing at level 3-5 maybe even one.You mean different fighting styles do different amounts of damage? Imagine that.
I was talking about a duelist PrC archtype before level 7 or even a level 1 duelist. Power attack, furious focus, keen or improved crit falchion is going to be out and out better at level 1-6, and has a 30% chance to more or less one shot or hurt severly anything it connects with. THe Duelist PrC level to damage is nice but it doesn't work on things immune to crits. Mr power attack fighter will just keep going.
Only if you compare going into duelist as a fighter. Which is certainly doable and ok, but a little boring. Personally I like Magus and/or Ninja as entries into a duelist. True you wait a couple of additional levels but you also get a bunch of additional tricks.
|
I was talking about a duelist PrC archtype before level 7 or even a level 1 duelist. Power attack, furious focus, keen or improved crit falchion is going to be out and out better at level 1-6, and has a 30% chance to more or less one shot or hurt severly anything it connects with. THe Duelist PrC level to damage is nice but it doesn't work on things immune to crits. Mr power attack fighter will just keep going.
Okay...you can't even get improved crit before level 8 and a keen weapon is half your WBL at level 6...and as such, not a likely weapon to have. I'm sorry, but if your not playing by the rules (like a level 6 character with improved crit) or within the general guidelines (WBL), your idea of what is strong or not may not really apply to the assumed normal game.
A keen weapon isn't to hard to craft as it only costs 4000 gold and you can get craft arms and armor at level 5. Even without improved critical the two handed weapon user generally deals X2 or X3 damage over a single hand weapon (with or without a shield). The other compounding issue is the THW build is very cheap in terms of feats.
lvl 1 15 strength, +2 racial (human probably), +1 lvl 4.
2d6+6 base damage.
level 4 weapon finesse rapier, 18 dex).
1d6+ strength (probably not 18)
Both have the same modifiers to hit. Both can have weapon specilisation, THW has AC of around 20 (full plate, 12 dex), chain shirt+ 18 dex the weapon finesse fighter has AC18 but ealry on probably has a shield or buckler so 19/20 AC. Duelist moves faster has better initiative.
In effect though the two handed weapon fighter also has one more feat as well since they didn't blow a feat on weapon finesse. Odds are the THW user has taken power attack and probably furious focus. At level 4 the THF gets a +4 damage bonus off power attack for no penalty.
2d6+10 damage. At level 6 with vital strike 4d6+10 damage with 3 feats- could be a Barbarian or Paladin and non human. Avg damage is 24
The duelist has weapon finesse, dodge and mobility. I'll be generous and give them 14 strength.
1d6+2 damage. Or they could also take power attack and furious focus and I'll throw in vital strike as well.
2d6+6 damage. Average damage is 13. 24 vs 13 is almost double. That extra feat the THW user saved means they can qualify for weapon specialisation as well and the the user can also have a keen weapon by level 6 or even 5 if the parties wizard crafts it for him. If he uses a falcion avg damage drops to 22 with a 30% chance of a crit (avg damage is closer to 28).
Thats assuming the duelist type has tried to keep up with the THW user. If he has gone with mobility (spring attck) or some other build his basic damage may be something like 1d6+5 (+2 str, +2 weapon spec, +1 weapon) The THF ca take those feats as well and is now dealing 31 avg damage vs 9 which is triple the poor rapier users damage. +3 to ref saves, some skills, initiative probably doesn't cancel out triple damage IMHO. Most CR6 creatures are gonna be dead in 1-2 rounds assuming the falcion/greatsword etc fighter hits them. The uber damage is always good except at range, the mobility is situationally good depending on terrain, range, encounter setup etc.
Now lets say our level 6 fighter went Dervish Dance.
1d6 (+1 singleton, +2 weapon spec, +4 dex, +4 power attack or pirana strike)
Making sure by level 6 all the prereqs are in order for Duelist we still have a floating feat if human. We will do vital strike since you seem to like the comparison. Average damage becomes 18 not counting criticals. Giving him the same weapon enchantments brings the average damage to 19 with a 30% crit range (+1 and keen). Still not the same as your TH fighter but it's very close.
Total AC of the 1 handed fighter is 21 and this fighter has a much higher touch AC. His AC will also drastically increase when mithril becomes availible in a level or two and when we actually make the move into duelist. Your AC will remain relatively static. Better defenses, higher reflex saves and mobility at the cost of a bit of damage.
Zadnar: You as a fighter can't craft any magic weapons until level 7. If you're talking about teammates it's still against the WBL guidelines (since it counts full market price for WBL if someone else crafts it).
THW will deal more damage, no doubt - but until we have full builds it's hard to take into account how MUCH more damage. And also how much the THW user gives up in terms of saves, initiative, skills, and ranged capabilities.
Just throwing random numbers rarely show much.
Made on a 15 point buy -
Fighter
Male Human Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 6
Init +4; Senses Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 17, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +4 Dex, +3 dodge)
hp 55 (6d10+12)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +1
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Scimitar +12/+7 (1d6+7/18-20/x2)
Special Attacks Singleton +1
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +7 (+9 Disarming); CMD 24 (26 vs. Disarm)
Feats Dervish Dance, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack -2/+4, Vital Strike, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Skills Acrobatics +8, Bluff +4, Climb -1, Escape Artist +5, Fly +2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (engineering) +6, Perception +5, Perform (dance) +0, Ride +6, Sense Motive +3, Stealth +2, Swim -1
Combat Gear Chain shirt, Scimitar;
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex) +2 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Elusive +2 (Ex) +2 Dodge AC
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Singleton +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
That's a really badly optimized character. On a 15 pt buy you can have instead
Str 8 Dex 20 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 7
And a build somewhat more like this:
Human Free Hand Fighter 6
Init +7; Senses Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 19, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +6 Dex, +3 dodge)
hp 55 (6d10+18 (FC))
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Scimitar with Piranha Strike +13/+8 (1d6+14/18-20/x2)
Special Attacks Singleton +1
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +6 (+14 Disarming); CMD 24 (26 vs. Disarm)
Feats Dervish Dance, Dodge, Mobility, Piranha Strike, Vital Strike, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Skills Acrobatics +10, Perform (dance) +0, Perception +7,
Combat Gear +1 leather armor, +1 Scimitar, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2;
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex) +2 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Elusive +2 (Ex) +2 Dodge AC
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Singleton +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Look, managed to increase both to-hit (by 1) and damage (by 7!) as well as a few other things just by restructuring a bit and outfitting properly.
One boon the duelist has is it can boost AC, Init, Attack, Damage and Reflex with just one kind of belt - while the THF usually have to go for Str/Dex or Str/Dex/Con belts, the duelist can go for Dex or Dex/Con belts. (Also note that weapon finesse works for combat maneuvers using finesse weapons, like Disarm).
I suggest picking up a single level of maneuver master for this kind of character - getting +2 to all saves, +Wis to save if unarmored, and Improved Disarm for free ain't all that bad. Dunno if Hungry Ghost can be combined with it, to get something better than Stunning Fist.
I purposefully didn't 100% optimize, (intentionaly gave no magical items which I thought was pretty clear). Saying +7 damage isn't fair at all since I didn't 'turn on' power attack in the statblock and giving magical items makes it better, who knew.
Also is there something I am missing or how can you piranha strike with a scimitar? It's not a light weapon and Dervish Dance doesn't change that.
Plus I don't like your stat build. Your AC will have a difficult time progressing, you have less skills, not to mention I hate going to 8 str. You won't be able to carry anything without going into medium encumbrance - which loses some of your dodge. Just adding the weight of the leftover gold would bring you over light encumbrance or damn near to it. Not to mention not being able to have some handy items around like rope, grappling hooks, or you know a couple days worth of food rations.
If you wanted to dip into monk I'd actually recommend 2 levels of flowing monk but only with a 20 point buy. Redirection, Evasion and Unbalancing Counter are pretty good, you get wisdom to AC. Hopefully there is a caster for Mage Armor, your armor can get pretty ridiculous with a crazy good touch AC.
Oh, I didn't notice that about piranha strike/dervish dance. Good point. That drops it a fair bit. So it's basically dump str, get +1/+1 attack/damage, or keep str, get -2/+4 damage. I'd still dump Str, but I see what you mean. It's worse than I thought.
Str 8 isn't that bad when using light armor, especially once going mithril. And having medium encumbrance out of combat isn't that big a deal - dropping an item (such as a bag with all your utility stuff) is a free action. Very soon you can get a haversack or bag of holding for anything that weights more.
How does the AC have a difficult time progressing? Skill points are less important for a fighter than a will save and perception IMO, but that's a matter of playstyle i guess.
Str 8 really is that bad.
Mithril Breastplate - 15 lbs
Haversack - 5 lbs
Scimitar - 4 lbs
Belt of Dex - 1 lbs
Cloak of Resistance - 1 lbs
Headband - 1 lbs
You are now encumbered. For a couple thousand more gold you could make the scimitar mithril I guess to shave off a couple more lbs.
Nevermind having a second weapon just in case something happens to your first. Or bow in case you need to shoot something at range. I guess a sling has no weight though :P.
You are jumping through hoops to make this work and hoping that you even get access to a handy haversack at all, depending on the game you may not get items handed to you like that. 8 str characters really only work when you don't wear armor at all, like the monk varient I was mentioning before, but it's MAD enough where I wouldn't recommend it without a 20 point buy.
By the time you got a headband and a mithril breastplate, you'd probably have access to ant haul, but I admit that if you're in a group with no divine caster and no wizard or alchemist there could be issues. That+masterwork backpack means your light load is up to 90 lbs.
EDIT: Yes, depending on game one might not have access to those items - but that's not how the game was designed. A handy haversack is as easy to get as a +1 weapon, and weren't you using a +1 Keen weapon as an example like 5 seconds ago? EDIT 2: Also, I'm not jumping through hoops. It's far less "hoopey" to assume you have access to standard magic items and a 1st level spells than it is to assume you have access to someone with craft magic arms and armor, and spending half your WBL on a single item.
By the time you got a headband and a mithril breastplate, you'd probably have access to ant haul, but I admit that if you're in a group with no divine caster and no wizard or alchemist there could be issues. That+masterwork backpack means your light load is up to 90 lbs.
EDIT: Yes, depending on game one might not have access to those items - but that's not how the game was designed. A handy haversack is as easy to get as a +1 weapon, and weren't you using a +1 Keen weapon as an example like 5 seconds ago? EDIT 2: Also, I'm not jumping through hoops. It's far less "hoopey" to assume you have access to standard magic items and a 1st level spells than it is to assume you have access to someone with craft magic arms and armor, and spending half your WBL on a single item.
Actually I was assuming no magic of any kind, hence the statblock with no magic? In one example I gave a keen blade simply because they did, not like it mattered. I thought it was stupid and didn't even run the DPR based on average crits or anything.
By jumping through hoops I meant that you needed to jump through them even after you got the backpack. Besides - run the wealth, needing mithril everything will push other items back. In regards to Ant Haul yeah I guess that solves the problem. I've never played with a group that used it so I didn't even think of it (and I like playing arcane casters and buffing the monk with Mage Armor, the Paladin with Enlarge Person etc.) Seems a waste of a first level spell but if the group is better off for it then whatever.
I still think it's a giant pain in the arse to have an armor using character with such a low strength, especially one that is so heavilly penalized when encumbered. It would depend on what level you start at though and what resources your group has. I'll leave the choice up to the reader.
Do you mind if I steal your build and plug it into my DPR calculator? I want to compare this guy at level 6 to the baseline 2 hand fighter build I made.
Sure. Though make sure you compare it at equal wealth, this guy basically has nothing :). Also one change I would probably make if I was actually playing this is to not take Vital Strike and start working on the Crane Style feat chain.
Where is Piranha strike from? I also see alot of these builds are very optimised using multiple books and dervish dance with scimitars. The THF build is very basic and both power attack and vital strike are in the core rules.
Also the abuse with THF is also critical hits and that can include barbarian levels or Paladin levels with smite evil. I have no problem with THF doing more damage just more with the difference between the two options. The difference between 2 skill ponts a level and 8 also bugs me BTW lol. Also if one doesn't have the Inner Sea World Guide that means no dervish dancer feat. Last I looked Falcions, Greatswords, Greataxes and keen weapons/improved critical are all core.
Lets face it a heavily optimised Duelist is required to come close to a basic 15 point buy THF fighter using just the core rules. Thats my main complaint I suppose. It also doesn't require uber min maxed stats maybe only a 16 at level 1 although 15 can work- 10,10,10, 13, 14, 15 works very well although you could go 8,8,10, 12,14,16 I suppose- if you really wanted that 18 at level one and don't mind a 8 int/cha.
WBL guidelines are also all well and good but the craft item rules break them and even if they don't ave a caster in the party a Paladin for example can make his weapon keen at level 5 and it shouldn't be to hard to get a keen weapon by level 7 or worst case scenario take improved critical at level 8 assuming you can't find, buy, or make a keen weapon.
For comparison.
Fighter
Male Human Fighter (two handed fighter) 6
Init +1;
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 19 (+9 armor, +1 Dex,)
hp 55 (6d10+12)
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee Greatsword +13/+8 (2d6+8/19-20/x2)or
+13/+6 (2d6+16/19-20/x2) or
+13 4d6+16
Special Attacks
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +6;
Feats Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Furious Focus, Power Attack Vital Strike, Weapon Focus Greatsword, Weapon Specialization Greatsword
Equipment
master work great sword, full plate
Skills
Stuff
+2 vs Sunder
I didn't bother with th skills (YMMV) and theres one more feat left in the build and I did not worry to much about tweaking the ability scores (ie I vaue will save alot higher than ref save). In addition to uber damage you can also hit multiple opponents via cleave. I used a greatsword but one could also use a falcion for critical hit focused build or be a Dwarf and use that 1d12 axe with reach in the ARG which could be funny with the cleave type feats.
|
Zar.. craft rules don't break WBL. you need massive amounts of time to equip the party properly with good magic equipment with crafting feats, and those casters are not taking meta-magic and other feats to make them better IN combat. Any GM can control how much impact crafting feats have by limiting down time, it's not hard. Also, trading feats for money is fine. I'm not trying to be insulting but...
Bottom line, from what I've seen, you are more or less flailing around saying "OMG THF BROKED!", and complaining that a build that is NOTHING LIKE a two handed fighter does not do as much damage. Here's a news flash for you, two-handed fighters tend to do one thing, damage. Their AC is generally sub-par, especially with the nerf to animated shields and the elimination of improved buckler defense from 3.5, their saves are generally not great (unless paladin), they generally don't have lots of skills, etc. Duelist is a different TYPE of character, with different abilities and different feel to it. They can pump out a very good amount of damage, and with min/maxing almost as much as the THF. It's like saying that sorcerers are stupid because they're better at blasting than bards. Yeah, that's kinda the point. But bards can do plenty of awesome things for a part, including lots of damage. You have to keep things in perspective. It's apples and oranges. If you want damage, damage and more damage, play a two handed barb or something.
You guys can post different builds until you're blue in the face but until this basic fact is understood, we wont get anywhere.
it take what 4 days or 8 at the most to craft a keen weapon. If the DM is limiting downtime he is really metagaming against the PCs. Its like if people take THF builds and every sncounter is a ranged one using bows. Either DM metagames against players probably annoying them or PCs can craft what they like.
I'm well aware that two handed fighters deal more damage than oher types. However it is X2 or X3 the amount and some GMs won't allow in obscure stuff like Pirnha strike and Dervish Dancer and then the whole duelist build kinda dies and the build requires a bit of system mastery. THW+keen effect (lvl 5 paladin) is a very basic and core build.
|
|
Dude, the DM is allowed to metagame.. he's the DM. if he wants to limit crafting time in order to keep the party's power from getting out of control via time limits or activities or actions within the adventure, that's perfectly fine. what kind of crazy world do you game in where the GM isn't allowed to metagame?
also, if piranha strike isn't allowed, make a duelist with a 13 str (not hard) and take power attack, you can still use it with a lot of weapons a duelist would want to use. Honestly I think you're over-reacting. Duelist is just fine. and I've never had a game where a level five character had a +1 keen weapon that wasn't given as part of loot. especially since you cant get craft arms and armor until level five. You are expressing your opinions based on a very specific situation, where the players have access to nearly unlimited time and money for their level, and complaining about classes that aren't really similar to duelist.
But anyway, If you don't like it, make something home-brew that you like or don't play one.
Some adventures just don't have a lot of free time. It does not mean the GM is metagaming.
|
|
Some adventures just don't have a lot of free time. It does not mean the GM is metagaming.
a good example is (i know 3.5) but shackled city. from about level.. 13 or so until level 20+, everything is on a timer. There is just rush rush rush rush rush, and those of us with crafting feats felt cheated. the DM let us retrain those feats because he realized we wouldn't be able to use them for the rest of the campaign. But yeah, a good PF AP example of that is second darkness, after a while it becomes very devoid of free time.
|
Some adventures just don't have a lot of free time. It does not mean the GM is metagaming.a good example is (i know 3.5) but shackled city. from about level.. 13 or so until level 20+, everything is on a timer. There is just rush rush rush rush rush, and those of us with crafting feats felt cheated. the DM let us retrain those feats because he realized we wouldn't be able to use them for the rest of the campaign. But yeah, a good PF AP example of that is second darkness, after a while it becomes very devoid of free time.
That timer is only two chapters. Foundations of Flame and Thirteen Cages. The beginning of Foundations explicitly states to give PCs time to craft as does Strike on Shatterhorn right afterwards.
You can also counter that with Kingmaker where you have unlimited free time to craft married with free gold.
In most games unless the DM goes out of his way to screw them outta time the PCs will have time available to craft or they will force the issue with the DM.
DM Guys XYZ needs saved from the BBEG go to it.
PCs. Screw tis ima having a holiday gonna craft XYZ.
DM. But you are good aligned.
Players. Not anymore. Just changed to neutral.
DM. But what about XYZ city, btw assassins are now after you.
Players. We'll sail away in a caravel.
DM. No boats are available.
Players. Screw this we're teleporting to ABC location.
DM. Erm your teleport spell doesn't work.
etc
Basically you should either let the PCs craft what they like (within limits) or just ban the item creation feats.