RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The pregens aren't there to lure people in with the possibility of playing that character. They exist so that someone with no other way to play (such as just walking by and asking what's going on, therefore not having a PC) can get in on a game.
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I see Pre-gens in two formats
1) The standard pre-gens at higher than lvl 1: These will not be changed. They are designed to be fairly standard and utilize only the Core rulebook. They are vanilla ice cream kind of pre-gens.
2) Pre-gens for level 1: While there are vanilla ice cream pre-gens at lvl 1, there is no reason to not have non-vanilla pre-made characters available (These are not the same thing as a pre-gen and are treated as an actual character with regards to credit being applied). Have a huge stack of lvl 1 characters that you your self have made for players to grab and try. As a rule of thumb I would stay to the main books (maybe even just the core) so that players can easily understand their character. The only issue with this is that you can not legally take that credit and apply it to a completely different character as you can a legal pre-gen. My understanding is that that is a real pre-gen only thing. However, with the new rebuild rules, as long as a player had a character that was decent to start with and was happy with their class choice, etc. they could rebuild it to exactly what they wanted before they got to lvl 2.
*****Some one tell me if I am wrong here. I do not want to be promoting something illegal or frowned upon. AKA - If you don't agree with this Mike just delete my post. Thanks!*******
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Pre-Gens are an official term for the pre-made characters that Paizo produces, so I don't think you can make a bunch of 1st level characters and call them pre-gens.
I agree. I will edit my post to reflect that more than I did. They are not treated as pre-gens as the rules describe. However, it does give you a wide variety of options to present a new player with if they have an opinion on what class / style they would like to play but do not have the time/experience to write up a character sheet from scratch at the table.
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These are more accurately called starter characters, since you can choose one and start it as your PC. You can't play them and assign the credit to a new first-level PC as youc an with a "real" pre-gen. However, givebn the before-level-2-rebuild rules, that's not really a limit anyway.
Redoing the pre-gens can't be that high a priority - they are really a last resort. If someone is coming and they won't have their own character, make one for them based on a couple of quick questions (race? class? role?) and go with that. Then tell them to rebuild it to their liking before the next game if they're unsatisfied.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So... it's bad for someone, who was provided the means to play a game they weren't ready for, to see examples of how much cooler they can be once they build their own PC? It's bad for people who have invested the time, thought, and system mastery to have more interesting/strong/fun PCs than someone who just walked up and had it handed to them?
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I am not so sure much will come of the codex. From the sounds of it (one of the paizo sessions at Gencon) it sounds like most of the NPCs have an evil bent to them.
Maybe partially, but this part of the product description gives me hope:
* Multiple versions of each Pathfinder iconic character, perfect for pregenerated player characters.
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If I remember correctly from that session were the Devs were talking about the codex, the NPCs that they have fully leveled out were also going to statted out interestingly (I think they were referring to the iconics). It was something like all the even levels were going to be similar in style but all the odd levels would be variations on combat style (I.E a trip build or some other combat specialization that wasn't so vanilla). If those variations get brought in that would be pretty cool.
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I have had people decide not to play because they weren't engaged by any of the Pre-gens...
I have never heard this before. I have to question the entire session if a player, trying PFS out for the first time, decides against it simply because of the pregen they used. Sounds like a serious lack of communication between the GM/organizer and the n00bs. Not to mention, I have a hard time believing that the entire session was fun and exciting and the only reason they are not committing is a perceived weak pregen build.
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I have had people decide not to play because they weren't engaged by any of the Pre-gens...I have never heard this before. I have to question the entire session if a player, trying PFS out for the first time, decides against it simply because of the pregen they used. Sounds like a serious lack of communication between the GM/organizer and the n00bs. Not to mention, I have a hard time believing that the entire session was fun and exciting and the only reason they are not committing is a perceived weak pregen build.
Especially if its explained to them that they can now build their own brand new character, with the credit the Pregen just earned, and that you will help them create that brand new character.
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NPC Codex
I have heard a lot of talk about this book and admittedly, I am not aware of any pre-release material, but since it is a general rulesbook for the Pathfinder RPG and not specifically PFS, what makes us think that any of the iconic builds will be legal for PFS? And if they are, what makes us think they are optimized for PFS play? And I guarantee that there will still be players that complain about the builds; this or that should have been different.
"I wouldn't have assigned ability points that way.""I would have used [these] feats instead."
etc...
As an organizer, I don't want dozens of different legal pregens. I am already printing reporting sheets, chronicle sheets, back-up scenarios, flyers, sign-up sheets, etc., not to mention multiple color copies of the 21 different pregens we already have. For those of you who don't organize or cheat, and print your materials on a work system for free, have some compassion for those of us that are 100% self-funded.
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The pregens aren't there to lure people in with the possibility of playing that character. They exist so that someone with no other way to play (such as just walking by and asking what's going on, therefore not having a PC) can get in on a game.
Which in no way excuses Paizo telling new players to use deliberately crippled characters.
Take Merisiel at level 4. Point blank shot without precise shot. Weapon finesse but no two weapon fighting. The split in feats leaves her ineffective at both ranged and melee.
Paizo could easily make her work by giving her just a little more focus.
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Which in no way excuses Paizo telling new players to use deliberately crippled characters.
The pregens are not deliberately crippled. They function just fine. Merisiel has toughness for more HP, weapon finesse (a premium feat for rogues), dodge for an AC bump, and point blank shot to help with her dagger throwing. With a +6 bonus, she should go high in the initiative order more often than not. She also has some nice support gear. I have seen her used effectively dozens of times. The same goes for the other pregens as well. I have seen plenty of player-build characters that are less effective that the pregens.
People, the pregens are not optimized. They are not going to be optimized. They are a stop-gap to allow someone, last minute, to sit a table. They are built based on an iconic background and to fit the artwork. Valeros is not going to switch to two shortswords to maximize weapon focus. Merisiel is not going to switch to a bow/x-bow. Kyra is not going to change domains. The only issue with the pregens that I agree with is Ezren's limited spellbook. If he is truly pragmatic, as he is described, he would have many more utility spells in his book to better take advantage of his arcane bond ability. But even that is a minor complaint given that pregens are largely built with the focus of just allowing someone to play.
^about this^
Yes, there is an argument to be made for better pregens.
But.
I can't find much pity for someone who spends a session with an admittedly sub-par pregen BUT GETS TO APPLY THE CREDIT to a "real" PC made following...
Maybe I'm heartless...
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NPC CodexI have heard a lot of talk about this book and admittedly, I am not aware of any pre-release material, but since it is a general rulesbook for the Pathfinder RPG and not specifically PFS, what makes us think that any of the iconic builds will be legal for PFS? And if they are, what makes us think they are optimized for PFS play? And I guarantee that there will still be players that complain about the builds; this or that should have been different.
"I wouldn't have assigned ability points that way."
"I would have used [these] feats instead."
etc...As an organizer, I don't want dozens of different legal pregens. I am already printing reporting sheets, chronicle sheets, back-up scenarios, flyers, sign-up sheets, etc., not to mention multiple color copies of the 21 different pregens we already have. For those of you who don't organize or cheat, and print your materials on a work system for free, have some compassion for those of us that are 100% self-funded.
I agree with you there. A lot of people are seeing the NPC codex as some kind of saving grace for pre-gens in PFS. Just because a book comes out with pre-gens does in no way mean that we will be able to use them.
From what I have heard the NPC codex is going to be mostly non-usable NPC's (in the context of PFS) because the book is designed for the GM to grab an NPC and use it in their campaign. Thus, must of the NPCs are evil or have an evil bent to them (a specific point made @ Gencon from the Devs). Secondly, even if the iconics are expanded and look awesome and great and exciting, we have no guarantee that they will make it into the additional rules document. If I remember correctly, the most Mike has said about the NPC codex is that he will read it when it come out. That is definitely not a yes as he says that about most books that have PFS hype before their release (ex: ARG - which is mostly unusable).
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Which in no way excuses Paizo telling new players to use deliberately crippled characters.
My own mother, having never seen an RPG before, single-handedly wrecked an encounter against an invisible imp using 1st-level Valeros.
Maybe it's not the pregens that are "crippled".
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Which in no way excuses Paizo telling new players to use deliberately crippled characters.My own mother, having never seen an RPG before, single-handedly wrecked an encounter against an invisible imp using 1st-level Valeros.XD
I hope an anecdote is forthcoming.
It was during
The imp charges the party's ninja (my brother), turning visible. Mom rolls a natural 20, entangling the imp. And since you can't charge while entangled, the imp tumbles to the ground, skidding to a halt at the feet of the aforementioned silver-dagger-wielding ninja.
Goodbye, imp.
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Which in no way excuses Paizo telling new players to use deliberately crippled characters.My own mother, having never seen an RPG before, single-handedly wrecked an encounter against an invisible imp using 1st-level Valeros.XD
I hope an anecdote is forthcoming.
It was during ** spoiler omitted **. The imp had gone invisible. My mom looked at her Valeros sheet, saw that there was rope, and said "I want to start tying my rope into a lasso". I had her spend a round or two doing that, while everyone else was trying to figure out what to do (my dad, too, was using a pregen - he picked up ink bottles from an earlier scene and started using them to try and find the imp). Once the lasso was completed, my mom stated - without me ever telling her that readied actions existed - that she wanted to throw the lasso the instant she saw the imp.
The imp charges the party's ninja (my brother), turning visible. Mom rolls a natural 20, entangling the imp. And since you can't charge while entangled, the imp tumbles to the ground, skidding to a halt at the feet of the aforementioned silver-dagger-wielding ninja.
Goodbye, imp.
How did you get your parents to try PFS? I've been trying to get mine to play for years...
They are proud of me for being a VC and a 5 Star, but they have no idea what that actually means...
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Merisiel has split feats because you don't know when the player sits down if they're going to hang back and throw daggers, or charge in and melee, or do something totally unexpected with their rope. While most players want to be good at one thing only, they got to pick that one thing when they made their character. A new player playing a pre-gen had no input, so they're a little good at many things to accommodate variety and allow the player to try out the whole game system.
Using Herolabs, I can make a custom new PC using Core-only options in about 3 minutes. I have players who can make them manually just as fast (although they tend to use all sorts of options). There is almost *always* time to help someon make a character. When there isn't, there are pre-gens.
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That's the point a few of us have been making. I use herolab for the most part and so it's fairly easy to print out a large variety of lvl 1 characters that new players can grab, use, and retrain over the next 3 scenarios. Since no restrictions on retraining have shown up in the FAQ yet, you can retrain everything.
"Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number."
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Merisiel has split feats because you don't know when the player sits down if they're going to hang back and throw daggers, or charge in and melee, or do something totally unexpected with their rope.
So drop the point blank shot and give her two weapon fighting. It is only a minimal decrease in ranged effectiveness and a huge boots in melee.
Level 1 is also not the point at which the pregens are an issue. As stated above, you can simply hand the new player a character you built and they can change it prior to level 2. The issue is at levels 4 & 7 where you don't have that option.
As for Valeros, he and Kyra are the two best built pregens.
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We could always make first level pre fabricated characters and then let people retrain out of them before second level.
This works fine if the GM wants to carry a bunch of those and knows the table is going to run at 1-2 (Or say an event organizer wants to prepare those--making the characters himself or using the set at d20pfsrd.com that was linked in one of the many "pregens suck" threads, possibly this one.) It solves the issues of "not enough options" for new players and (assuming the colloquial "everyone" agrees that they are "good" or "sufficiently optimized") the issue of "pregens suck"--at tier 1-2...
It does not solve the issue that if someone wants to sit at a tier 4-5, or 8-9, or 10-11 table (using a level 4 or 7 or 7 pregen respectively) that the players at those tables think the pregen is "bad" or at least "not sufficiently optimized." (I've played level 7 pregen Valeros, and I think he's just fine--like Jiggy's example, it's how you use him (and how well your dice roll)).
But I will say here again: Mike has said that he will look at the NPC codex and see whether to use something from there and then will decide what (if anything) else should be done... so table this discussion for ~a month or two? (I don't know the estimated release date for the codex).
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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How did you get your parents to try PFS? I've been trying to get mine to play for years...
My brothers and I all live in different states (and only one in the same state as my parents). We were all going to be home, and I suggested an activity that would have her boys all around the kitchen table with her for hours.
'Nuff said. ;)
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It would be nice if they had Pre-gens for each class...
I have had people decide not to play because they weren't engaged by any of the Pre-gens...
Did you then sit down with the player and tell them about all the other classes available and how he can apply this just earned credit to any of those amazing classes? Sounds like a failing of the other people at that table rather then the pregen itself.
I have said it before, these are just a taste of the game and a opportunity for players without a character in the proper tier to be able to play. These are not super optimized killing machines.
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TetsujinOni - If that is what he meant I still feel it is a failing of the other people there. I would suggest simply telling these players to try it out and play through the scenario. If they liked playing but didnt like the pregen they are then free to make a new more awesome character. If all they want to do is play Badass McKillington then they may need to look for another game. I accept that we cant win over every player.
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If all they want to do is play Badass McKillington then they may need to look for another game. I accept that we cant win over every player.Pathfinders run into more than enough things that need a good killin for these people to have a role.
True, but you don't start off as that. Needs to be worked up to.
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I'd like to see them at least FAQ and fix the existing pregens, that have some fairly big errors.
Pregens are there to be a completely legal, correct, fast way to play a character when you have no other option. But when they've got errors built into some of them, things most first time players won't notice, I feel it cheats them a bit of the game.
"here, you can't play anything else? come play at our table and use this pre-gen, its a got these flaws and errors that we can't fix, and you're underpowered compared to some of the other players. but try and enjoy yourself." isn't a stance I like having to take as a GM.
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What errors are there? I haven't examined any of the pregens that closely, but I hadn't heard anything about errors.
Off the top of my head, the level 7 Samurai has Greater Weapon Focus (Katana) (Prereq: Level 8 Fighter; yes samurai levels stack with fighter levels for purposes of qualifying for weapon feats for the samurai's chosen weapon, but 7 < 8 nonetheless). I recall the official position on how to deal with this is "run the pre-gens as written."
Others might put forth that at least one of the levels (I forgot which one(s)) of Merisiel [the rogue] is at medium encumbrance based on her gear and strength score; I would say that technically this isn't an error, but there is an error there: some skills and attack bonus scores on that sheet are "incorrect" in the sense that I don't think they take into account the encumbrance penalty.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Making additional pregens is on the agenda. When the NPC Codex is released, the 1st- and 7th-level versions of all 11 iconics within will be made legal as Pathfinder Society pregens (and will eventually be adapted to free PDF downloads with a 4th-level version as well).
We currently have no plans to change existing pregens aside from fixing a few minor errata issues. The iconics are established characters with predefined flavors, fighting styles, and equipment. With the nearly infinite number of combinations available for characters in the Pathfinder RPG, there's no way any single build will ever satisfy everyone, so we've aimed at capturing the characters with effective, thematic builds rather than optimized builds that might not fit within the constraints of the established characters.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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We recently plugged a couple of the L7 pregens (Merisiel and Ezren) into Hero Lab. As best we could tell they would appear to be built on a 19-point buy, not 20 points, and to have some skill points unassigned. Ezren is also supposed to have one of his feats be a bonus feat, but none of his feats are from the list of feats that he can take as a bonus feat.
While on the one hand I'll be glad to see published pregens for the seven other classes in the CRB (Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Ranger & Sorcerer), there are another seven classes (the 6 from APG - Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner & Witch, plus the Magus from UM) that would be welcome alongside the three we already have from UC (Gunslinger, Ninja & Samurai).
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I would rather see the non CRB pregens eliminated and just stick to the iconic core pregens.
I'd agree that would be better than keeping the three from UC without adding the classes from the APG. But by now the APG classes are pretty common (both as enemy NPCs and PFS characters) that I think they'd be worthwhile as pregens.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Errors...
So far, only two errors have been indicated and they are in favor of the pregen. So by correcting them, it would seem we would make them less, not more, effective. I don't understand...
The trouble there is that people take the pregens, rename them, and use them as their own character. If that character gets audited, it doesn't look good if the pregen build doesn't pass muster.