So my last campaign ended after we saved some Kingdom. The DM made all of our character knights of the kingdom with large amounts of Land Etc, thus ending their careers. For the next session we had to make new characters, the Son/ or Daughter of the character we were playing before. (Same Race, different class)
My previous character was a Half-Elf Ranger. So I asked him if I could make the next character a Master Thrower, and he agreed to convert it over from 3.5, as he knew I was not pleased to lose my other character (kind attached it was my first pathfinder character). So these characters are starting their journey at level 8 (same level the other campaign ended on), and we were allowed to keep one piece of equipment from our inventory.
I selected the Celestial Armor, as my add on from my previous character. He claims this is suppose to resemble the parents adventure and passing down something meaningful.
That being said, I need some help with the character. This is what I have for her currently.
Half-Elf: Feats/bonuses
1 - Rogue (1) Point Blank Shot
Racial - Skill Focus (Stealth)
2 - Rogue Talent - Weapon Training (Dagger)
Evasion
3 - Precise Shot
4 - Rogue Talent - Weapon Finesse (Finesse Rogue)
5 - Eldritch Heritage (Shadow)
6 - Rogue Talent - Sniper Eyes (for ranged)
7 - Rogue (7) Two Weapon Fighting
8 - Master Thrower (1)Quickdraw -> Throw Trick (Palm Throw)
I didn't really know what to do with Skill Focus, so I figured I could dip into shadow bloodline at later levels in order to hide in plain sight for sneak attacks.
Statwise I gave her: (We get 18-13 and get to assign them as we please)
Str = 13
Dex = 22 (18 + 2 racial + 2 from level 4 and 8 increases)
Con = 17
Int = 14
Wis = 16
Cha = 15
Now what I had sort of planned out for the character in terms of feat are the following.
9 - Master Thrower (2) - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 - Throw Trick - Sneaky Shot/Trip Shot
Evasion (upgraded to Improved Evasion) - as per GM
11 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow)
Snatch Arrows
12 - Master Thrower (5) - Throw Trick - Weak Spot, Critical Throw
13 - Rogue (8) - Improved Precise Shot
Rogue Talent (Combat Trick, specifically saving it til then for this reason) - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15 - Rapid Shot
Advanced Talent - Crippling Strike
Prob won't get this far but if I did:
17 - Greater Eldritch Heritage ( Shadow)
Advance Talent - Familiar
19 - Improved Familiar
Advance Talent: Feat - not sure doubt it gets that far
The Traits I was going to take for her were: Reactionary and Elven Reflexes for more initiative. (Willing to take suggestions and change this)
As for items. We have access to all the pathfinder books, So this character already picked up the blinkback belt.
Now I think I need 1 or 2 daggers (2 I think for use with palm throw, or can one dagger just count twice), anyways I was thinking a Seeking Dagger as I can't get improved precise shot for awhile, and I don't get to do touch AC until level 12.
Any thoughts you can give me would be greatly appreciated. One Dagger I was thinking about eventually getting that would work with this build from Ultimate Equipment is bloodthirsty dagger, whenever i can afford 60k!
I would appreciate any and all insight you guys can give me, on stats, feats and equipment to put on her. Remember that her sneak attacks do d8s instead of d6's with her daggers, so that is a little more damage.
Thanks!
Funny, I've been working on a knife master thrower, too. Converting Master Thrower seems fun -- I went Knife Master/Scout and mutliclassed to Vivisectionist/Beastmorph alchemist after getting the scout's charge ability.
I actually posted the build yesterday or the day before looking for a critique, it's probably floating around somewhere.
I'm not sure how your conversion of Master Thrower came out, but without far shot or a similar ability you're probably going to end up throwing from a threatened square quite often and may want close quarters thrower to avoid those pesky AOOs.
Personally, I'm interested in eventually picking up False Opening and Opening Volley, but I'm playing more as a close-up switch hitter. And I'm not sure what the popular opinion on the feat chain is.
Alternatively, if you're picking up the shadow bloodline goodies you could pick up Hellcat Stealth and Hellcat Pounce, too. Then you can HiPS almost anywhere.
If you're starved for feats, a small dip in fighter could help; the extra BAB will help offset TWF/range penalties and, considering the short range of a thrown dagger, you might be thankful for the extra HP. Weapon Master seems sort of appropriate for a "knife master" and 3 levels will net you 2 extra feats and another +1 hit/damage with dagger.
As alternative offerings for traits, take a look at Strong Arm, Supple Wrist from combat traits and River Rat from regional traits. Your picks are both solid, but so are those and you might like them better. I'd call it a wash, higher initiative is pretty great for a rogue.
The problem is Daggers only can be thrown 10 feat. My main issue was trying to find a way to extend that, since point blank shot allowed me to go up to 30 feat away for the bonus.
Would farshot mean I could through from 30 feat with a -2?
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The Traits I was going to take for her were: Reactionary and Elven Reflexes for more initiative. (Willing to take suggestions and change this)
Either of these is good. Both is useless as they do not stack (as per RAW).
My suggestion is to replace one of them with "River Rat" it will give you a +1 bonus on damage with daggers (and swim as a class skill I think).
Hopefully for RP purposes your little tract of land in the kingdom is next to a river or body of water...
Funny enough my Ranger was a Fisherman before the adventure, and per DM suggestion, his companion was a snapping turtle. So making the rogue a River Rat would work with RP.
Good catch on those traits not stacking. River Rat is a good replacement but if you're worried about range I once again humbly suggest Strong Arm, Supple Wrist.
Don't know the penalties for range off the top of my head but Far Shot cuts them in half, so yeah, that seems right.
My version of a dagger thrower gets around the short range problem by charging in and switching from throws to melee. If you're interested in staying ranged you're going to really need Far Shot.
If Knife Master your only archetype?
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The only other tidbit I can offer is have you considered Ninja? It's basically a big Rogue Arcetype that is more effective at being a Rogue, mechanically speaking.
You could explain your Ki Pool as latent Elven "magic" in your blood and then use Vanishing Trick to become invisible as soon as level 2 (= more sneak attack chances). At level 10 you get greater invisibility.
With your stat array you could make a sweet Ninja with an excellent Ki Pool (high CHA).
He could also pick up the Ki Pool/Ninja trick talents, if he were determined to stick with rogue. For some reason the talent version of Ki Pool uses Wisdom instead of Charisma, but his Wisdom is even higher.
Regardless, here's my version of a knife master dagger thrower:
http://paizo.com/people/NikolaiNineKnives
I'm not sure how good that build really is, but maybe there's something there that will help.
Let me know what you finally come up with; I'm interested in seeing it.
You can use Quick Draw and Rapid Shot instead of TWF to throw multiple times per round (unless you want TWF in melee, of course).
You could also ask your DM if you can use Manyshot to throw two knives at once (as written, it only applies to bows).
The current knife master Rogue archetype lets you do 1d8 sneak attack with knives/daggers instead of 1d6. (As a tradeoff, you only do 1d4 with non-knives.) Something like that might also fit the character.
In Ultimate Equipment, there's an item called a blink-back belt that makes your weapons return to the scabbard after you throw them--highly recommended for a throwing master!
^ i have all of those. I dont think Many shot would work and it didn't make the cut in my analysis. I also have the blink-back belt.
So far yea I can change the traits, and fit farshot in there. I can definately look into ninja. As it stands I probably wont be able to pull off both Shadow Bloodline and Hellcat feats, there are just too many feats that are essential to be able to effectively utilize both of those.
Any other thoughts? Will look at Nikolai in the morning, too tired right now.
Those of you who have the Spell-less Ranger extended PDF. The Dual-Style ranger archetype works fantastically for a thrower cause you get 2 feats with combat styles, one from 2 different styles. Coupling that with my Master Thrower I have come up with 2 different builds. However I have lost the ability cast spells which in a bind is going to be really troubling.
Spell-less Ranger gets 1d6 Stealth attack at level 2 and every 4 levels after. Also gets a full list of Ranger feats you can take.
1 Comanion/Eldritch Heritage Spell-less Ranger:
1 - Point Bank Shot
Skill Focus (Stealth)
2 - Dual Feats: Precise Shot/Two Weapon Fighting
3 - Weapon Focus (Dagger)
(4) Ranger Talent: Improved Stealth Attack
5 - Eldritch Heritage (Stealth)
6 - Dual Feats: Improved Precise Shot/Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7 - Boon Companion, Quick Draw, Throw Trick - Palm Throw
(8) Evasion
9 - Thrown Weapon Trick - Trip Shot, Far Shot
(10) Snatch Arrows
11 - Thrown Weapon Trick - Weak Spot, Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow)
(11) Critical Throw
(12) Ranger Talent - Ranger Feat - Improve Companion
13 - Greater Companion
(14) - Ranger Talent - Stealthy Attack
15 - Dual Feat: Rapid Shot/Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Invulnerable Animal Companion
17 - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Shadow)
2 Companion Spell-less Dual-Style Ranger:
1 - Point Bank Shot
1 - Racial (Perception or Stealth)
3 - Weapon Focus (Dagger)
(4) Ranger Talent: Additional Companion
5 - Boon Companion
6 - Dual Feats: Improved Precise Shot/Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7 - Boon Companion, Quick Draw, Throw Trick - Palm Throw
8) Evasion
9 - Thrown Weapon Trick - Trip Shot, Far Shot
(10) Snatch Arrows
11 - Thrown Weapon Trick - Weak Spot, Improve Animal Companion
(11) Critical Throw
(12) Ranger Talent - Ranger Feat - Greater Animal Companion
13 - Invulnerable Companion
(14) - Ranger Talent - Stealthy Attack
15 - Dual Feat: Rapid Shot/Greater Two Weapon Fighting, De
There's also a companion-bound Spell-less Ranger Archetype, but that doesn't work with the feats I need.
Some feats that I should explain so yall know what I am talking about. Improved Animal Companion = + 1 ability point + 2 NA
Greater Animal Companion = +1 Feat, can spend your move action to give your companion benefits of your stealth attacks & fast move class feats. These last double your WIS mod.
Invulnerable Animal Companion = DR/Magic DR = 1/2 ranger level
Thoughts? I actually really like this Pdf, its worth the buy.
You should look at the blinkback belt for this kind of build. It teleports all your thrown weapons back to your belt, so you can use them again. If your GM allows custom items you should have someone craft you one that also adds dex. Or if you have a half decent STR you could get a hurler's belt.
The Master Thrower from 3.5 is a bit broken though, because it allows an ability to use an enemy's touch AC rather than their regular AC. I am playing in a 3.5 game and we have a Master Thrower in the party who throws 14 darts per round and hits with every one. His build and gear load is designed to give him maximum extra damage per hit, and he typically does 150-250 damage in a full-round attack, depending on what options he uses. We are currently at 17th level but he has been the main damage dealer as long as I have been in the game, though sometimes our full-attack power attacking barbarian comes close. When we were at 15th level our thrower took out a nearly full-health Titan in one full round of attacks.
I would stick to working within PF rules instead.
Peet