So the Wealth by Level was first introduced to D&D by Wizards of the Coast with 3rd edition. It was pretty much baked into the math and they only exacerbated the issue with 4th ed where it was much more stringently baked into the math. That said, WotC finally addressed the issue in 2009 with their "inherent bonuses" system in the 4th ed DMG2. It's where some of the wealth was removed in favour of just giving PCs a flat bonus.
Pathfinder, in seeking to remain compatible with 3.5e as much as possible, inherited this problem. I'm looking at mechanics in order to get rid of it, much like 4th ed did with just handing out bonuses at the appropriate level. The reason for this is I quite like the idea of running a low magic campaign. Which RAW isn't possible for Pathfinder without a lot of changes on the GM side of the screen.
As such, here is my effort at addressing the math.
I'm looking at this for the first 15 levels of play because most games only go up that high as the higher you get the more the game starts to fall apart (or so I've heard). Unlike 4th ed where you continually get bigger pluses to hit and defences, Pathfinder is much more diverse. You can have someone with appalling AC, that instead relies on blur or other effects to keep them alive. Or instead of getting another +X to your weapon, you might buy boots of speed which for 10 rounds increases your attacks, AC and also gives you 1 extra attack.
Trying to map all of these effects is impossible. As such I made a generic fighter's worth of equipment to determine how big those pluses get. No fancy boots of speed or horseshoes of the zephyr, just flat out mundane equipment that has no thought put into it whatsoever. If you think the assumptions I've made in that thread are wrong, head on over there and let me know why.
Here's a summary of those bonuses:
Weapon attack bonus: +5
Other Attack Bonuses: +4
Armour bonus to AC: +5
Other AC Bonuses: +8
Saves: +5
This would replace the "ability score boost" you get every 4 levels.
Level 2: +2 to two different stats;
Level 3: +1 enhancement bonus to attack, weapon damage and all AC defences;
Level 4: +1 to all saves;
Level 5: +2 to two different stats;
Level 6: +1 enhancement bonus to attack, weapon damage and all AC defences;
Level 7: +1 to all saves;
Level 8: +2 to two different stats;
Level 9: +1 enhancement bonus to attack, weapon damage and all AC defences;
Level 10: +1 to all saves;
Level 11: +2 to two different stats;
Level 12: +1 enhancement bonus to attack, weapon damage and all AC defences;
Level 13: +1 to all saves;
Level 14: +2 to two different stats;
Level 15: +1 enhancement bonus to attack, weapon damage and all AC defences;
In comparison to the generic equipment I listed above here's how this implementation pans out.
Weapon attack bonus: Matches
Other attack bonus: implementation gives you +1 extra.
AC Armour bonus: Matches
Other AC bonus: implementation loses you -3 to AC.
Saves: implementation loses you -1 to your saves.
ClarificatioN: The math above assumes that the "other bonus"es are supplied by putting the two stat boosts into your offense and defense stats. You could of course not do this.
Pros:
- Players can play around with their stats in order to get more HP, better wisdom, etc. Gives them some freedom.
- Can’t completely dump AC to have a ridiculous attack bonus
- They get something at every level and there is a pattern as to what they’ll get at particular levels.
- Can overcome certain types of DR (if you consider “enhancement bonus to attack” to beat “DR X/magic” as that is the intent).
- Works for clerics. Fighters, rogues and sorcerers.
Cons:
- Spellcasters are unable to get some fairly standard items (pearls of power, metamagic rods)
- Casters who focus solely on spells with saving throws (so no ranged or melee touch attacks), they get no benefit from the “+1 enhancement bonus to attack” bonus.
- Wizards and Witches simply do not work in this system.
Unintended side-effects:
- Bull Strength and other similar spells remain valuable across all levels.
IMO this system would allow Fighters to be built well. Clerics to be built well. Even MAD monks would probably cope alright using this system. Sorcerers would be able to be built fairly well. The attack bonus would benefit their touch attacks while the bonus to AC appears to stack with mage armour (RAW at least. I believe I've worded it in such a way as to ensure that it does). This gives them some perks they normally can't attain as some compensation for not getting extend rods, energy type changing rods or circlets of persuasion). The only classes that appear unplayable are wizards and witches.
By 12th level you can overcome adamantine DR without an adamntine weapon and by 15th level you can overcome alignment based DR.
Of course, there's also some flex room for throwing consumables at the PCs (see this thread to see how much they should get in consumables per level per player by the WBL table).
You can also throw more flavourful and hilarious items at your players. They can now finally wear a Cloak of the Manta Ray (an item I've yet to see used in a game because everyone instead gets their damn cloak of resistances). You can give your players a Lyre of the Building. You'll want to keep an eye out for giving them too powerful items. But using the system above, you'll at least know they're AC, saves and to hit are at the correct amount for their level.
Oooh! You could use the above chart in a normal home game for the player who builds a "Vow of Poverty" monk while allowing the rest of the party to use the standard WBL chart.
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As you can see I think the above system math balances out with what players would have using the standard WBL chart. I also think it allows people to make characters that aren't overpowered nor underpowered (wizards/witches not included). Am I hopelessly naive? Are there terrible loopholes basked into the above math that you could exploit to your heart's content?
What do you think? I started playing WotC D&D in 2008 with 4th ed. So for me it's taken quite a while to adjust to the WBL way of thinking (where the game assumes you have X amount of gold and thus increases the defense and offense abilities of monsters to compensate). I'm still not entirely happy with that style of game. So I've decided to try my hand at modifying the system so that I could game with a different style. I'd like to hear feedback so I can improve the math utilized in the above chart.
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Your first priority, when planning a large change to the expected method of play (any change, not just WBL), is to set out what you hope to achieve.
IE; what exactly is it about the default WBL, that you dislike and want to avoid?
Is it that you believe the overall power level of the default game is too high?
Or is it that your players keep building unbalanced PCs, unbeatable in their chosen area, but with several Achilles Heels?
Or is it that you want to run a setting where players budget their gold toward kingdom-building, where traditional elements like castles are still relevant?.
I can see a case for all three of the above, and others will be able to mention several other issues.
But those are three different problems, that require different approaches.
We will only be able to comment on whether your changes are successful, if we know your specific intent.
Analysing what your aims are helps you know whether your proposed changes are achieving what you set out to do, if they're a non-issue, or if they're counter-productive.
It also helps you sell the idea to your players, set the tone of the genre and setting, so they make PCs that are relevant and appropriate.
If the PCs are able to shout "By the Power of Greyskull!", fight the same opponents, they have always fought under the default magic level, and be running round at level 11 with an inherent 28 in their prime stat, before buffs, are you actually playing a 'low-magic' game?
Or are you playing a high magic game, where the PCs are even more powerful than they ever were, because what they used to spend gold on have been made slotless items, that have melded with their flesh, and can never be disarmed/stolen/sundered/etc?
Or is it that you want to run a setting where players budget their gold toward kingdom-building, where traditional elements like castles are still relevant?.
This. Also I don't want to have to worry about putting enough gold ahead of the PCs. I don't want them to have to greyhawk every single combat/dungeon because they're chasing that elusive WBL because I haven't put enough gold ahead of them.
I want them to be able to take that flavourful cloak without going "well if I keep this highly situational but very flavourful cloak, my saves are going to decrease by 3. Also I'm really struggling to hit anyone because my sword is only +1. Selling this cloak increases my to hit by a fair chunk and increases my saves due to the fact that I'll be keeping my cloak of resistance."
I'd rather they just say "I'm going to keep this cloak because I've never seen it used and it sounds like fun."
It also helps you sell the idea to your players, set the tone of the genre and setting, so they make PCs that are relevant and appropriate.
Well yes, I definitely would. But having a working system would help considerably in swaying them to try something a bit different.
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You can also throw more flavourful and hilarious items at your players. They can now finally wear a Cloak of the Manta Ray (an item I've yet to see used in a game because everyone instead gets their damn cloak of resistances).
This is a big annoyance for me.
As GM, I try to make the treasure fit the owner, and/or the circumstances in which it ended up in a creature's lair.I also try to foreshadow what might be useful in the campaign, and help the PCs be prepared for it. The previous owner probably had a reason for equipping themselves with this stuff, and may have been on a similar expedition, before their unfortunate end.
Not only do I consider most '+X' items boring, I believe them mostly unnecessary. Most PCs' attack bonuses and saves scale far faster than opponents AC and save DCs. Beyond the first few levels, it is common to see PCs who rarely miss opponents of equal CR, and can only fail saves vs their abilities on a natural 1. Yet the players still insist on boosting these areas, then crashing into a dead-end of their own making, for lack of basic utility items (like being unable to climb/fly/swim/etc).
I've gone down a similar path.
The first thing to do is run a game with trial and error; starve them for treasure (or just for specific treasure types) and adjust the threats accordingly. If you can do this and things don't fall apart, then you don't need to add house rules to the mix.
I tried that and found I was still having problems keeping the characters up to par against threats intended for their level. If I ran a homebrew, this would be a non-issue, I would just treat them as a lower level for challenges. But I run APs (2 of em!), so I need a more direct solution.
This bears repeating: if you're running a homebrew, you adjust the challenge down accordingly and give out only the stuff you want to give out. It works. The WBL table isn't some intrinsic property of the game, it's a guideline for GMs to make sure they're assuming the same power level as the (relatively imprecise) challenge metrics. It's not the rules that are straightjacketing you, it's the adventure content, and if you control that content you're all set.
If you're using a lot of modules and you don't plan to spend time adjusting the challenge, you're going to need some kind of adjunct rule to close the "competence gap" that will form.
Here's mine:
The following bonuses are acquired automatically at the listed levels. Magic items that normally confer these bonuses no longer do so, but all other benefits remain. The Purchase DC for items with both an enhancement bonus and an effect (e.g. a flaming sword must also be a +1 sword) remains the same as if it had the enhancement bonus.
Type.............................Automatic Bonus
Attacks and Damage ......if equipped, +1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Saving Throws................+1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Armor if equipped...........+1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Shield if equipped...........+1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5)
Physical Ability Scores.....+1 to any one per 2 levels (max +6)
Mental Ability Scores.......+1 to any one per 2 levels (max +6)Note that the automatic enhancement bonus to attacks does not qualify as magic for the purposes of damage reduction. A weapon needs to possess at least one magical quality (e.g. a returning dagger) to bypass damage reduction of the magic type.
The armor bonus from mage armor does not benefit from the auto-bonus as armor does.
Ability score bonuses are in addition to the normal +1 point per 4 levels.
The dragonscale amulet (natural armor bonus) and ring of protection (deflection bonus) exist in lesser (+2, minor item) and greater (+4, medium item) varieties. Both create visible effects and are activated by a command word as a standard action.
This is not exactly equivalent to what you get from WBL... for example, I think the physical/mental split on ability score boosts is actually possible but somewhat uncommon for PC buying patterns. But in general, it closes the gap and lets me focus on handing out flavorful magic items instead of the "big six."
I've also been toying with the idea of tossing the wealth by level chart. Making it tougher to craft items an removing ability score boosting items altogether. I would definitely scale down encounters but that is easy. Personally I think the WBL chart makes magic items feel cheap and less "magical". Even when I PC I hate having to choose the same equipment every time just to keep up with a power curve.
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It's worth also considering, that adjusting the assumed wealth of the PCs affects different classes and builds to different extents.
Some classes are inherently more dependent on their gear than others, and the way they're built can skew that further.
You'll find a lot less PCs willing to gamble on being proficient in an exotic weapon (or even carry an uncommon simple or martial weapon), if they know they will be reliant on whatever looted gear the GM places on dead opponents, and unable to commission their own upgrades to an heirloom weapon.
Watch out for players picking feats like Vow of Poverty, or trying to suggest class options/traits that restrict the ability to use certain items (hypothetical example "...the Savage Shaman is illiterate, but can cast an extra spell/level/day..."); if everyone's being kept virtually penniless (in an 'After the Apocalypse', or 'Shipwrecked on Monster Island' campaign), that PC isn't actually giving as much up as the writers intended.
Not only do I consider most '+X' items boring, I believe them mostly unnecessary. Most PCs' attack bonuses and saves scale far faster than opponents AC and save DCs. Beyond the first few levels, it is common to see PCs who rarely miss opponents of equal CR, and can only fail saves vs their abilities on a natural 1. Yet the players still insist on boosting these areas, then crashing into a dead-end of their own making, for lack of basic utility items (like being unable to climb/fly/swim/etc).
I'm not so sure that this is accurate. Here's a build of a character I have on file. Now I admit it's not an optimised build but it's the only one I had handy. It's an Elven Oracle.
Ability Scores
STR 16 (10)
DEX 10+2 (0)
CON 15-2 (7)
INT 10+2 (0)
WIS 7 (-4)
CHA 15 (7)
Traits
Mathematical Prodigy (Magic): +1 trait bonus to Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Engineering). Knowledge (Engineering) is always a class skill.
Observant (Grand Lodge): +1 trait bonus to Perception and it’s always a class skill.
Curses
Haunted (doesn’t improve)
Lame (does improve)
Skills
4 (base) + 1 (Int mod) + 1 (Favoured Class) = 6
1. Diplomacy
2. Knowledge (History)/Knowledge (Planes)/Spellcraft/Knowledge (Arcana)/Knowledge (Geography)/Craft (woodwork)
3. Knowledge (Engineering)
4. Knowledge (Religion)
5. Perception
6. Disable Device
Languages
1. Elven (free)
2. Taldane (free)
3. Thassilon (int mod)
Feats
Level 1) Extra Revelation (Weapon Focus)
Level 3) Power Attack
Level 5) Combat Casting
Level 7) Extra Revelation (Improved Trip)
Revelation 8) Improved Critical
Level 9) Extra Revelation
Level 11) Divine Interference
Revelation 11) Greater Trip
Revelations
Level 1) Skill at Arms
Feat 1) Weapon Mastery
Level 3) Seeker Lore (mandatory)
Level 5) Misfortune
Level 7) Battlefield Clarity
Feat 7) Manoeuvre Mastery
Feat 9) Combat Healing
Level 11) Iron Skin
Spells
Level 0
I know 9 spells:
1. Detect Magic
2. Guidance
3. Create Water
4. Light
5. Mending
6. Purify Food and Drink
7. Read Magic
8. Stabilise
9. Detect Poison
Level 1
I can cast 6+2 spells a day. I know 5+cure spells:
0. Cure Light Wounds
1. Bless
2. Shield of Faith
3. Comprehend Languages
4. Protection from Evil (swapped for Remove Fear)
5. Magic Weapon (swapped for Endure Elements)
Level 2
I can cast 6+1 spells a day. I know 5+cure spells:
0. Cure Moderate Wounds
1. Silence
2. Delay Poison
3. Resist Energy
4. Lesser Restoration
5. Bull’s Strength/Hold Person
Level 3
I can cast 6+1 spells a day. I know 4+cure spells:
0. Cure Serious Wounds
1. Borrow Fortune
2. Dispel Magic
3. Invisibility Purge
4. Magic Circle against Evil
Level 4
I can cast 6+1 spells a day. I know 3+cure spells:
0. Cure Critical Wounds
1. Air Walk
2. Blessings of Fervour
Level 5
I can cast 4+1 spells a day. I know 2+cure spells:
0. Mass Cure Light Wounds
1. Breath of Life
2. Righteous Might
Equipment
• 25% on weapons 27,500
o 18,380 Elven Curved Blade +3
o 460 Cold Iron Elven Curved Blade
o 210 Silver Heavy Flail
o 500 Composite Longbow STR 5
o 2,500 Golembane Scarab
• 25% on armour 27,500
o 26,650 Full Plate +5
o 4,000 Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
o 5,000 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
• 25% on other 27,500
o 16,000 Headband of Alluring Charisma +4
o 16,000 Cloak of Resistance +4
o 2,000 Handy Haversack
• 15% on disposables 13,000
o 11,000 Consumables
• 10% on ordinary gear 10,000
o 2,800 Pathfinder Gear
Attack Rolls
+16/+16/+11 = +8 (BAB) + 3 (strength) + 3 (enhancement) + 1 (morale) + 2 (strength enhancement) + 1 (size) + 1 (weapon focus) – 3 (power attack)
Armour Class
29 = 10 (base) + 9 (armour) + 5 (enhancement) + 1 (dexterity) + 2 (deflection) + 2 (natural armour) – 1 (size) + 1 (insight)
Saving Throws
Reflex: +8 = + 3 (base) + 1 (dex mod) + 1 (belt) – 1 (size) + 4 (cloak)
Fort: +9 = + 3 (base) + 2 (con mod) + 4 (cloak)
Will: +9 = + 7 (base) – 2 (wis mod) + 4 (cloak)
Now at level 11 vs a CR 11 creature:
I hit on a 9/9/14 (target AC: 25)
I save on an 11/12 (target DC is 20)
I get hit on a 10 (target attack bonus is +19)
For an at CR creature these numbers seem fairly reasonable. I hit and save about 50% of the time, but I also get hit 50% of the time. Higher CR opponents are going to prove more difficult, as they should.
Here's a rebuild of that using the inherent system above
DEX 10+2 (0)
CON 14-2 (5)
INT 12+2 (2)
WIS 8 (-2)
CHA 14 (5)
Attack: +18/+18/+13 = +3 (starting strength) + 1 (lvl 3) + 1 (lvl 6) + 1 (lvl 8) + 1 (lvl 9) + 1 (lvl 11) + 8 (BAB) + 1 (morale) + 1 (size) + 1 (weapon focus) - 3 (power attack) + 2 (strength enhancement)
AC: 21 = 10 (base) + 1 (starting dex) + 1 (dex lvl 2) + 1 (lvl 3) + 1 (dex lvl 5) + 1 (lvl 6) + 1 (dex lvl 8) + 1 ( dexlvl 11) + 3 (studded leather armour) + 2 (deflection) - 1 (size)
Reflex: +11 = +3 (base) + 1 (starting dex) + 1 (dex lvl 2) + 1 (dex lvl 5) + 1 (dex lvl 8) + 1 ( dexlvl 11) + 3 (level enhancement)
Fort: +8 = 3 (base) + 2 (con) + 3 (level enhancement)
Will: +9 = 7 (base) - 1 (wis mod) + 3 (level enhancement)
Charisma: 19 = 15 (base) + 2 (lvl 5) + 2 (lvl 9)
Constituion: 14 = 12 (base) + 2 (lvl 2)
I hit on a 7/7/12 (target AC: 25)
I save on a 9/11/12 (target DC is 20)
I get hit on a 2 (target attack bonus is +19)
Overall I don't think this character is overpowered.
Or are you playing a high magic game, where the PCs are even more powerful than they ever were, because what they used to spend gold on have been made slotless items, that have melded with their flesh, and can never be disarmed/stolen/sundered/etc?
I've never seen an item sundered. I've seen a weapon stolen once when that person fell unconscious and the DM started softballing the fight. The only times I've seen PCs without equipment is when they're sleeping for the night. And in those cases the second PCs get access to extradimensional spaces, they start sleeping in those.
For me the PCs "always having their equipment" isn't too much of a power issue because 99% of the time, they'll have their equipment anyway.
Overall there's clearly some flaws in the system. I dislike how dramatically his AC decreased. Largely because he was in full plate. The above system has the flaw where stat bumps into dex are actually useless because they don't achieve anything. I'm better off keeping full plate and putting those stat bumps into charisma and constitution, meaning I can keep more of the stat bumps for strength meaning my to hit gets even higher. Introducing: The glass canon.
I'd like to see this system used for a few more traditional character builds and see how it compares to see where tweaks might be required.
You get far better results by nerfing the monsters by the expected amount rather than pumping the PCs. This also makes it easier to adjust things on the fly rather than the buff the PC method you propose.