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That's fine...I was answering hogarth's question of how you effectively choose a strategy when you don't know the specific weakness of the enemy. I fully know that some monster's don't have a weakness. I find that a lot of new players don't invest in Knowledge skills or don't remember to use them at the beginning of combat.
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I have to disagree with toning down the scenarios, in fact there should be scenarios created for those that want an extreme challenge. I have played pathfinder style games for over 30 years now and can tell you that many, many players prefer the challenge of being taken down to the line of almost being killed and overcoming the challenge then if they prance thru the encounter. There is no challenge or enjoyment if the player cannot feel that they overcame an encounter with their magic, wits, guile, or strength of arms. PFS is curently meant to be played within a 4-5 hour session, if you have role-playing be the basis then all the scenarios will be run in 6-7 hours. I happen to like role-playing and have nothing against those who make those characters, but I have sat at and GM'ed tables where the role-player takes at least 20 minutes to make a point of some time and eats up scenario time and also those players that make skill-based characters that they themselves couldn't talk their way out of a paper bag and have no social presence and the number they can generate is the only thing that shows the social interaction their character produces. The latter makes for a poor performance and is not fun while the former can make their point in their performance without reciting the entire encyclopedia.
It takes all types of players to succeed in a scenario and I have many players in my region who considered the earlier scenarios to be too easy for even average-type party members; I even had one player stop playing some time ago because the challenge level didn't even exist for him.
There are a good number of role-players in my area, but many of them know not to bog down a scenario with useless banter; as a GM I expect at least a small measure of effort for a role-playing character player to make some sort of speech attempt instead of roll the dice and lets go on!!!!
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You're welcome.FWIW, locally a party of 6 with an APL of 5 got through Wrath's Shadow Tier 6-7 without too much trouble. Several of us went to negative values a few times but we weren't in too much danger at any time.
Yet another example of your mileage may vary.
Ha! Says the character level 5 PC, aka dead weight. ;)
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It seems that we are getting bogged down by this one encounter in this one scenario (Wrath's shadow). There have always been a few scenarios that hit hard and killed players no matter what the season was. Do people think that this example is outside of the norm for season 4 (i.e. it's season 4's Dalsine Affair)?
No. I think it’s indicative of the fact that scenarios are now no longer pushovers and average builds using beginner tactics are going to have a very difficult time with them.
Average Builds with superior tactics should actually fair pretty well.
Good Builds with beginner tactics are going to find it very challenging.
Good builds with good tactics shouldn’t have much trouble.
Great Builds with Superior Tactics should roll, but it will be more satisfying.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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@Morganwolf: That was really hard to follow.
The points I gleaned were these:
• Scenarios are not too hard
• Roleplaying needs to be time-conscious
• Making a social skill check without giving a speech is bad
The main point was either the first or last of those three; the most words were spent on the first, while the last received a whopping four exclamation points.
I guess maybe the first was the main point, since it's the only one that was on-topic?
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I am new to PFS and have only played a handful of scenarios and GM'd 2. But as far as some of the newer write ups, I like the challenge. I play several RPG's and a few MMO's, but find myself prefering the older editions or expansions as there was more of a challenge. Yeah it can be unfortunate if a character gets killed, but part of the fun for me is starting over too.
But as far as challenges I look for the opportunity to find tactics and teamwork to overcome these difficulties - yes sometimes the dice will hate you, but that is part of the game and flavor.
I have played in only one scenario where I did not like the challenge and it was because the GM seemed to have an attitude of how many can I take out. Which I disagree with, as a GM you run the game not treat it as a death trap to kill people - unless the player or players do something incredibly stupid. But that's just my opinion though - games should always be challenging and fun, in the end.
It is the GMs job to take ANY scenario and make it enjoyable for ALL the people at the table.
But it's the scenario writer's job to make the GM's job as easy as possible.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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It seems that we are getting bogged down by this one encounter in this one scenario (Wrath's shadow). There have always been a few scenarios that hit hard and killed players no matter what the season was. Do people think that this example is outside of the norm for season 4 (i.e. it's season 4's Dalsine Affair)?
Funny story regarding that Dalsine Affair...
Played it last night with my level 5 druid in a party of 6 (apl being 5), playing up to the 6-7 tier. None of them had played it before, so I let them know the meatgrinder that was in store for us at the end. I was an eagle the entire game, so I was well prepared to just fly away at the end when crap hit the fan. When the time came, we started sweating profusely, then rolled initiative for the final encounter.Long story short: it turns out that SNA II summoning 1d3+1 stirges is pretty good. After 3 rounds of 4 stirges grappling him, 'ol baron Dalsine was missing 12 con and just fell over.
Talk about alternate tactics ;)
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It is the GMs job to take ANY scenario and make it enjoyable for ALL the people at the table.But it's the scenario writer's job to make the GM's job as easy as possible.
Making the scenarios easier for GM's has virtually nothing to do with this topic of the "scenarios are too difficult."
FWIW, your statement was my #1 overarching principle when I wrote my first scenario. From the feedback I've gotten, I think I succeeded (as in every GM I've talked to said it was very easy to prep and run w/ little confusion, especially for a 7-11).
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@Morganwolf: That was really hard to follow.
The points I gleaned were these:
• Scenarios are not too hard
• Roleplaying needs to be time-conscious
• Making a social skill check without giving a speech is bad
yes to all points, I brought up the role-playing aspect as a point that unless role-playing characters are created to challenge difficult encounters which most of the time they are not, they need to tweak themselves towards that challenge? anyone ever see a bard or any social class character talk down monsters somehow as opposed to melee/ranged attacks?
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Ha! Says the character level 5 PC, aka dead weight. ;)You're welcome.FWIW, locally a party of 6 with an APL of 5 got through Wrath's Shadow Tier 6-7 without too much trouble. Several of us went to negative values a few times but we weren't in too much danger at any time.
Yet another example of your mileage may vary.
I see. Next time I adventure with the pasty undisciplined elf, I will see how many arrows find the wall.
Making the scenarios easier for GM's has virtually nothing to do with this topic of the "scenarios are too difficult."
I'd be interested in hearing more of your specific thoughts on this.
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I see. Next time I adventure with the pasty undisciplined elf, I will see how many arrows find the wall.Ha! Says the character level 5 PC, aka dead weight. ;)You're welcome.FWIW, locally a party of 6 with an APL of 5 got through Wrath's Shadow Tier 6-7 without too much trouble. Several of us went to negative values a few times but we weren't in too much danger at any time.
Yet another example of your mileage may vary.
Undisciplined? Why I never!
Next time you cry out for help against the wrath of hell I shall keep my sword sheathed! I say Good Day to you Madame!
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Making the scenarios easier for GM's has virtually nothing to do with this topic of the "scenarios are too difficult."I'd be interested in hearing more of your specific thoughts on this.
If a scenario is difficult to prep, it doesn't necessarily make it difficult for the players (maybe difficult to follow the story). It makes for more variance. Some tables will have an easy time because the GM is unprepared to handle the challenges presented. Some tables will get massacred because the GM interrupts something that was poorly written incorrectly.
If a scenario is difficult to prep, it doesn't necessarily make it difficult for the players (maybe difficult to follow the story). It makes for more variance. Some tables will have an easy time because the GM is unprepared to handle the challenges presented. Some tables will get massacred because the GM interrupts something that was poorly written incorrectly.Making the scenarios easier for GM's has virtually nothing to do with this topic of the "scenarios are too difficult."I'd be interested in hearing more of your specific thoughts on this.
What I mean is: Why do you specifically think the initial difficulty of scenarios is unrelated to how easy it is to scale them to be more easy or difficult?
From my experience, it's easier to take an average scenario and make it more difficult (play the monsters more tactically) and to make it less difficult (play the monsters less tactically). But if a scenario starts off being very difficult, then to make the scenario easy the monsters have to play so stupidly that it strains credibility (again, in my experience).
Why do you specifically think the initial difficulty of scenarios is unrelated to how easy it is to scale them to be more easy or difficult?I never said that.
Then what does "Making the scenarios easier for GM's has virtually nothing to do with this topic of the "scenarios are too difficult"" mean?
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Then what does "Making the scenarios easier for GM's has virtually nothing to do with this topic of the "scenarios are too difficult"" mean?Why do you specifically think the initial difficulty of scenarios is unrelated to how easy it is to scale them to be more easy or difficult?I never said that.
It means that it deserves its own discussion separate from this one.
There is a huge difference between a scenario being too difficult because the difficulty inherent in the design of the scenario is too much for an average party of pathfinders or because the author wrote complications in an obtuse, ambiguous, or lazy way.
Two completely different topics of discussion.
One, Mark can fix by just not hiring those authors to write more scenarios.
The other is a more difficult question to answer and needs a year or so of game play to figure out the right formula. Then, Now, or somewhere in between?
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No. I think it’s indicative of the fact that scenarios are now no longer pushovers and average builds using beginner tactics are going to have a very difficult time with them.Average Builds with superior tactics should actually fair pretty well.
Good Builds with beginner tactics are going to find it very challenging.
Good builds with good tactics shouldn’t have much trouble.
Great Builds with Superior Tactics should roll, but it will be more satisfying.
I think that's about right. I feel that the season 4 scenarios are not overly more difficult, but they are slightly more challenging than previous seasons. This gets exacerbated when you have a table with poor GMing or poor tactics / builds. I think that's why we are seeing a lot of table variation with some people claiming TPK and others claiming a cake walk, with everything in between. Maybe season 4 scenarios are just hard enough to not let sloppy play prevail.
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I see. Next time I adventure with the pasty undisciplined elf, I will see how many arrows find the wall.Ha! Says the character level 5 PC, aka dead weight. ;)You're welcome.FWIW, locally a party of 6 with an APL of 5 got through Wrath's Shadow Tier 6-7 without too much trouble. Several of us went to negative values a few times but we weren't in too much danger at any time.
Yet another example of your mileage may vary.
Undisciplined? Why I never!
Next time you cry out for help against the wrath of hell I shall keep my sword sheathed! I say Good Day to you Madame!
Never what? Hit anything with your pointy arrows? I'm glad you agree with me.
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I think that's about right. I feel that the season 4 scenarios are not overly more difficult, but they are slightly more challenging than previous seasons. This gets exacerbated when you have a table with poor GMing or poor tactics / builds. I think that's why we are seeing a lot of table variation with some people claiming TPK and others claiming a cake walk, with everything in between. Maybe season 4 scenarios are just hard enough to not let sloppy play prevail.
No. I think it’s indicative of the fact that scenarios are now no longer pushovers and average builds using beginner tactics are going to have a very difficult time with them.Average Builds with superior tactics should actually fair pretty well.
Good Builds with beginner tactics are going to find it very challenging.
Good builds with good tactics shouldn’t have much trouble.
Great Builds with Superior Tactics should roll, but it will be more satisfying.
That is very much my opinion.
It means that it deserves its own discussion separate from this one.
Fair enough; I wasn't the one who raised the subject.
Being Undead is a weakness.
Not one every party can exploit, but a weakness nonetheless.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I feel that the season 4 scenarios are not overly more difficult, but they are slightly more challenging than previous seasons. This gets exacerbated when you have a table with poor GMing or poor tactics / builds. I think that's why we are seeing a lot of table variation with some people claiming TPK and others claiming a cake walk, with everything in between. Maybe season 4 scenarios are just hard enough to not let sloppy play prevail.That is very much my opinion.
I think you are missing the point I raised (either that, or you are saying our party had poor build/tactics, or we had a bad GM, in which case I would disagree with you).
I'm not saying In Wrath's Shadow is too hard at all levels; I'm saying that the perfect storm of the choice of the particular BBEG, the variation between the subtiers, and the scaling for a 4-player group add up to a scenario that is very much weighted against a small low-subtier party.
It's not just this scenario; there have been complaints about Rise of the Goblin Guild as well. Many of those complaints boil down to sustantially the same issue; an encounter where most of the threat comes from a single opponent can all too easily overpower a 4-player low-subtier group.
I believe the scaling system is too simplistic, and does not adequately balance the threat across the range of tier-legal parties. This was true in previous seasons, too, but with the increase in difficulty to provide some challenge to a six-member high-subtier party the result presents the most challenge to parties least likely to be able to handle it. A party of six 7th-level characters will probably be able to compensate for a couple of unfortunate rolls early on in an encounter; at the other end of the spectrum that's going to be a lot harder to overcome.
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I feel that the season 4 scenarios are not overly more difficult, but they are slightly more challenging than previous seasons. This gets exacerbated when you have a table with poor GMing or poor tactics / builds. I think that's why we are seeing a lot of table variation with some people claiming TPK and others claiming a cake walk, with everything in between. Maybe season 4 scenarios are just hard enough to not let sloppy play prevail.That is very much my opinion.I think you are missing the point I raised (either that, or you are saying our party had poor build/tactics, or we had a bad GM, in which case I would disagree with you).
I'm not saying In Wrath's Shadow is too hard at all levels; I'm saying that the perfect storm of the choice of the particular BBEG, the variation between the subtiers, and the scaling for a 4-player group add up to a scenario that is very much weighted against a small low-subtier party.
It's not just this scenario; there have been complaints about Rise of the Goblin Guild as well. Many of those complaints boil down to sustantially the same issue; an encounter where most of the threat comes from a single opponent can all too easily overpower a 4-player low-subtier group.
I believe the scaling system is too simplistic, and does not adequately balance the threat across the range of tier-legal parties. This was true in previous seasons, too, but with the increase in difficulty to provide some challenge to a six-member high-subtier party the result presents the most challenge to parties least likely to be able to handle it. A party of six 7th-level characters will probably be able to compensate for a couple of unfortunate rolls early on in an encounter; at the other end of the spectrum that's going to be a lot harder to overcome.
I don’t know the make-up of your group. I don’t know your builds. I don’t know your tactics. I don’t know your GM. There is a lot I don’t know about your specific circumstances.
What I do know is:
- I played In Wrath’s Shadow and Golemworks Incident at Gen Con with suboptimal parties for the challenge presented.
- I’ve GM’d In Wrath’s Shadow with a suboptimal party for the challenge presented.
- Ryan Bolduan GM’d Golemworks Incident with a table of 4 (might have been 3 with a pregen) that was suboptimal for the challenge presented except for one very high AC fighter that does a ton of damage. I was aware how this all went down, because Ryan and I talked about it.
- I ran The Green Market for a table very optimized for the challenge presented (3 of the same class that was perfect for two of the encounters)
In Wrath’s Shadow was easy for us despite being a suboptimal party, because we amped up our effectiveness with extremely sound tactics. Appropriate buffs, trips, grapples, and such, allowed us to mitigate the very high AC/CMD.
A nicely placed glitterdust more or less ended the threat of the BBEG in In Wrath’s Shadow for the table I GM’d.
Golemworks Incident came down to my Druid breaking containment and grappling the badguy in the form of a Huge Allosaurus. Otherwise, we were really hurting.
Going based on my experiences on both sides of the table, I would say that those having massive TPK or fleeing and thus not succeeding at the mission troubles, are not making optimal use of the skills, abilities, and tactical choices their characters have or their characters are poorly built. In either case, it is not the fault nor is it the responsibility of the campaign or the scenario to mitigate things for those who have the option, but choose not to do for themselves.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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If a scenario is difficult to prep, it doesn't necessarily make it difficult for the players (maybe difficult to follow the story). It makes for more variance. Some tables will have an easy time because the GM is unprepared to handle the challenges presented. Some tables will get massacred because the GM interrupts something that was poorly written incorrectly.Making the scenarios easier for GM's has virtually nothing to do with this topic of the "scenarios are too difficult."I'd be interested in hearing more of your specific thoughts on this.What I mean is: Why do you specifically think the initial difficulty of scenarios is unrelated to how easy it is to scale them to be more easy or difficult?
From my experience, it's easier to take an average scenario and make it more difficult (play the monsters more tactically) and to make it less difficult (play the monsters less tactically). But if a scenario starts off being very difficult, then to make the scenario easy the monsters have to play so stupidly that it strains credibility (again, in my experience).
A thousand times, this! Aim for the middle, and then individual GMs can adjust up or down as needed.
The unique problem for PFS is that the GM is much more limited than usual in terms of how he or she can scale the scenario. Most of the usual tools (adding or removing enemies, changing stats, etc.) are disallowed. So scenarios need to be designed closer to what the end result will be. Going for a middling difficulty level gives the best chance that the GM will be able to adjust accordingly for whatever type of party is at the table that night.
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Ryan Bolduan GM’d Golemworks Incident with a table of 4 (might have been 3 with a pregen) that was suboptimal for the challenge presented except for one very high AC fighter that does a ton of damage.
I was at that table, and holy frijoles! If we didn't have the falcata weapon master at the table, we would have been toast. The table was four PCs (might as well have been three with the part of the pregen played by my rogue; level 5 playing tier 7-9, baby! Ryan said he didn't fudge any dice rolls. I'm not sure I believe him...)
Had a ton o' fun in that one, but yeah, there were a few moments where I almost regretted my decision to play that one. Still, I did manage to help with the end fight. At least it was susceptible to precision damage unlike the earlier critter.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Going for a middling difficulty level gives the best chance that the GM will be able to adjust accordingly for whatever type of party is at the table that night.
Maybe Season 4 marks PFS finally reaching exactly that: a "middling" difficulty level. Maybe certain players/groups have gotten spoiled/lazy with other scenarios that were below that mark, and now they're having to snap out of it.
Isn't that the true question of this thread?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Ryan Bolduan GM’d Golemworks Incident with a table of 4 (might have been 3 with a pregen) that was suboptimal for the challenge presented except for one very high AC fighter that does a ton of damage.I was at that table, and holy frijoles! If we didn't have the falcata weapon master at the table, we would have been toast. The table was four PCs (might as well have been three with the part of the pregen played by my rogue; level 5 playing tier 7-9, baby! Ryan said he didn't fudge any dice rolls. I'm not sure I believe him...)
Had a ton o' fun in that one, but yeah, there were a few moments where I almost regretted my decision to play that one. Still, I did manage to help with the end fight. At least it was susceptible to precision damage unlike the earlier critter.
...Ambrose? Is that you?
I thought the dwarf's x3 crit weapon was an axe?
(Also, congrats on being the only person NOT caught in the
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Ryan Bolduan GM’d Golemworks Incident with a table of 4 (might have been 3 with a pregen) that was suboptimal for the challenge presented except for one very high AC fighter that does a ton of damage.I was at that table, and holy frijoles! If we didn't have the falcata weapon master at the table, we would have been toast. The table was four PCs (might as well have been three with the part of the pregen played by my rogue; level 5 playing tier 7-9, baby! Ryan said he didn't fudge any dice rolls. I'm not sure I believe him...)
Had a ton o' fun in that one, but yeah, there were a few moments where I almost regretted my decision to play that one. Still, I did manage to help with the end fight. At least it was susceptible to precision damage unlike the earlier critter.
...Ambrose? Is that you?
I thought the dwarf's x3 crit weapon was an axe?
(Also, congrats on being the only person NOT caught in the ** spoiler omitted ** at the beginning of the fight!)
Yep. That mofo has defied death (and not so defied) more times than I care to count.
As for escaping the spoiler, well that is what happens when you max out dex, acrobatics, escape artist, and happened to be wearing the slippers of spider climbing.
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Are more recent scenarios more difficult?
Are more recent scenarios too difficult?Two different questions.
1) Yes they are more difficult but I think that is mostly due to the switch from being written for tables of 4 to being written for tables of 6. As a whole this is a good thing as a table of 6 is much more common at our tables then 4.
2) Too difficult? Not at all. They are middle of the ground appropriate (aka - the correct CR). I have 5 characters and not a one has died. This is mostly by playing smart, however I have a lvl 12 barbarian who I played absolutely recklessly (without being that bad fun kind of player) mainly because I was curious as to whether a scenario could ever put him down. Not yet...Hush Kyle...No Care Bairds needed. I like the new feel of the scenarios. I played Storval Stairs (@10-11) recently and loved the first encounter. It had a nice WTH feel that cause the spell casters to start dropping high level spells from the get go. The scenario kept us on our seat but we all got through and had an easy time with encounters that others struggled through.
We have found the "Just right" bed without having found to "Too hard" one.
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JohnF, I recommend just writing a scenario review, you're not going to convince hardcore GMs or players of anything. I'm not even sure they're openminded to feedback.
Going based on my experiences on both sides of the table, I would say that those having massive TPK or fleeing and thus not succeeding at the mission troubles, are not making optimal use of the skills, abilities, and tactical choices their characters have or their characters are poorly built.
First, I'm going to assume that everyone wants new players to join the PFS community? I'm also going to assume that we want casual gamers to enjoy our hobby?
Assuming this is true, why do you think it's OK to kill a PC that uses non-optimal tactics or has a non-optimal (but OK) build? You realize that new and casual players will have neither? That they're just there to have fun?
Do some of you also realize that you have a completely different point of view compared to a casual gamer?
I think the attitude above is really bad for new players starting PFS. You should be concerned when you're killing PCs and NOT LIKE IT. It's also bad to just shrug your shoulders and pass the blame to the players. "Your build and tactics suck".
Also, your theory about only "bad builds and tactics lose" is definitely not true. My main PC doesn't not suck and I can name 3 instances lately (Golemworks, Temple of EE, and Green Market) where we barely won, and it was ONLY possible because three or more of us had optimal PCs. One bad dice roll, one less OP PC, or one passenger and we'd all be dead. (Note these were all with 4 PC groups, if we had 6 PCs we'd be fine... probably). I'm guessing some groups don't have OP PCs, players with system mastery, or they have a passenger. What then? My point is the difficulty has scaled far beyond the average player imo. So average players can't play our game?
This bad attitude is either going to make players make optimized combat junkie PCs (like previous OP campaigns, even though we say 'that's not what we want') or it's going to drive new/casual players away.
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I really enjoy it when someone takes a statement completely out of context and applies it to something not being discussed /sarcasm
Seriously. You've read and responded to many other things I've written. And I've always been an advocate of helping new players enjoy the game.
As Kyle says, you HELP new players out, by suggesting tactics they may not be aware of. Giving them all their options. Ultimately let them make the choice, but you help them. This includes in helping them by explaining what different build choices might mean both short and long term.
Nowhere, anywhere, in my statement above, did I even remotely say that I'd shrug my shoulders at slaughtering a newby table. Please do not imply that my statement means such. It is unfair, and disingenuous of you to do so.
Secondly, I never TRY to kill a character. I let the dice speak for themselves. But if the group is an experienced group, and they are making poor choices, or for whatever reason want to play characters that are basically tag-a-longs (as opposed to the girl-scout cookie) but are otherwise useless as an adventurer... then yeah, they deserve to have their character die.
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What if there was some sort of warning or tag on the more difficult modules
One person's easy scenario is another person's meat grinder.
This seriously happens all the time:
Player A: Wow, scenario X was a killer!
Player B: Really? We walked right through scenario X. Now scenario Y, written by Kyle Baird was really brutal (and well written).
Player A: No way. When Thea ran us through Scenario Y, it wasn't hard at all.
So how do we tag scenario's X and Y? You can't. They're all built around the same flawed CR system. The best anyone can do is read the reviews and hope to gauge its difficult based off personal experiences.
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What if there was some sort of warning or tag on the more difficult modulesOne person's easy scenario is another person's meat grinder.
This seriously happens all the time:
Player A: Wow, scenario X was a killer!
Player B: Really? We walked right through scenario X. Now scenario Y, written by Kyle Baird was really brutal (and well written).
Player A: No way. When Thea ran us through Scenario Y, it wasn't hard at all.So how do we tag scenario's X and Y? You can't. They're all built around the same flawed CR system. The best anyone can do is read the reviews and hope to gauge its difficult based off personal experiences.
Sheesh... perhaps you should write a scenario that would actually allow me to kill PCs and not just tap them...