Did anyone ever try this?
Experiences? Thoughts? Suggestions?
never tried it but my first thought is that it will make many feats more difficult overall to get which, kinda turns me off. power attack and the twf chain will be taxing to take due to their requirements. i worry builds will be difficult to balance.
p.s. partial casters would probably not love you for this.
I really like the idea of this- it makes race matter a LOT. Expect to see some seriously dumped stats, too.
Toastwolf is right about certain feats, so I'd probably reduce all stat prereqs by 2 if you went this route. It makes them roughly as attainable/unattainable as before without perhaps a bit more investment.
Oh! I'd probably also add one or two more Weapon Focus feats, maybe renaming them to Weapon Focus I, II, III, IV, etc- and make these accessible to all the classes. With lower stats they're going to have a rougher time hitting anything.
Be sure to include touch/ray spells if you go with route.
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So you give a boost to classes that depends on feats and nerf classes that require stats like casters???
Actually...quite the reverse. 10 points, I dump 2 stats to 7 and get 18 in the one state I care about and drop a third one to 7 to get some con. I am pretty much on par with a 20 PB caster now...only with more feats. As a fighter, you need str and con and probably a bit of dex while not dumping wis...yeah that is harder to pull off. If I want a TWF fighter...well I'm even MORE boned. Want expertise tree? Oh dear god. Low point buys makes the disparity between casters and mundanes even bigger.
Well 3 7's will pretty much harm any character anyway. Though most casters have a good will save, they probably shouldn't dump Wis to 7 (if the casting stat is not Wis). You could get a perfectly reasonable PC without that level of min-maxing.
However, extra feats will minimise some of the fighters expertise. So just give them an extra couple of skill points to add versatility.
Level 1 can be really dangerous. The PCs will have still no more feats, but will have the low points. Beware of that.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
I'll answer both parts seperately:
10 Point Buy: I personally dislike too weak PCs, so now I play with 20 point buy. As a consequence I feel 10 is much loo low for my taste. But is you and your party like it, why not.
Feat every level: Major fighter nerf. Thats the first and for some time the only thing that comes to mind about this.
IF you want to double the feats, then do it all the way and double selectable bonus feats, too.
All in all I can say that I would not play in a game using the 10 Point Buy + Feat every level HR.
Depending on the GM I'd perhaps give it a thought if bonus feats would be doubles, too. But I guess the result would still be a no.
Well. to explain it:
My group came from 4d6 creation, which was totally ridiculous overpowered stats to 20 point buy and we still were kind of too strong.
Now im in a 15 point buy like PFS and i think its much more exiting.
What always disturbed me though is that there are so many nice feats and you get so few, especially as a medium BAB class.
So im thinking about a way to maintain balance, but perhaps get more feats.
I´ve been thinking to restrict the additional feats to general and racial feats perhaps. No combat and metamagic feats.
What i also thought about was giving everyone a NPC class level as level 0 along with the then class skills and all the stuff.
Normally we don´t really use dump stats, or not more than one, because a failed will save can easily kill you^^
Feat every level: Major fighter nerf. Thats the first and for some time the only thing that comes to mind about this.
IF you want to double the feats, then do it all the way and double selectable bonus feats, too.
Taken separately, sure- fighters get shafted because now everyone has more feats, so the value of a feat is lessened. Except you can't take it separately because the OP also lessened the point buy to 10. This means that a fighter can afford a better dexterity/constitution than others because the fighter gets weapon training, which is a very significant boon to the class in this system.
I think I'm the only person voting for this in the thread, but I really like it! It reminds me of e6 in a lot of ways. It makes the game feel like "normal people" are accomplishing great things, and I appreciate that in a setting. You'd need to offer a few ways to bump up attack bonuses but overall I don't think it will be an issue.
In fact, 10 point buy isn't even that terrible. It just means that you'll need to select more favorable races. Check it out:
Full Casters: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8
Melee Brutes: Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Hybrid Casters: Str 14, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14
Then just pick a race to boost your favored stat(s). Every character can now afford toughness and the +save feats if you're concerned about low saves.
Honestly I think this system makes characters more powerful than less. Stats are less, sure, but compensated for by feats. Casters won't notice the change too much, though they'll have lower HP for a bit. The best thing this system offers is versatility. By doubling the feats available weapon users can invest heavily in two+ weapon types, or combat maneuvers, or defenses, or skill use. Casters can take more metamagic feats and pursue situational options that are a poor choice in normal campaigns.
The amount of versatility available to the characters will really blossom at higher levels when your stats matter even less. I wouldn't be surprised if I saw everyone in your party with the crafting feats to overcome those stats, either. It's only a few feats for each person.
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Well 3 7's will pretty much harm any character anyway. Though most casters have a good will save, they probably shouldn't dump Wis to 7 (if the casting stat is not Wis). You could get a perfectly reasonable PC without that level of min-maxing.
However, extra feats will minimise some of the fighters expertise. So just give them an extra couple of skill points to add versatility.
Okay, using wizard...7 str hurts how? 7 cha is even more of a no brainer. Fine we want a bit of wisdom...so lets only drop that to 8. That still nets you enough for a 13 con and 18 int before racial.
That not a noticable difference in power level from a 20 point buy wizard or sorcerer beyond maybe an extra HP or AC here or there.
For sorcerer, 7 str, 7 int, 8 wis and 13 con and 18 cha.
For the divines...well they are a bit more MAD these days. Clerics can't really dump str due to armor, can't dump cha for channeling, need con like anyone else, need wisdom for spells so that leaves dex and int.
How about something a little less extreme ? Give everyone 15 points or 20 or 25 or whatever. Grant everyone a bonus feat at first level (so a human would get 2 bonus feats) with the prerequisite of BAB +1 waived (so character could take exotic weapon proficiency for example).
Create a list of feats based on class. Fighters already have such a list (the feats tagged as fighter bonus feats). Grant each class a selection from the class specific ist at certain intervals that you can vary by class to adjust balance. Perhaps you think wizards are too powerfull. Give them fewer bonus feats, say at 1,6,11,16, but rogues need a boost. Give rogues more, say at 1,4,8,12,16,20. Of course, the rogue list would be different from the wizard list, so the rogue is choosing from things like Extra Trick while the wizard is choosing from things like metamagic feats and uncanny concentration, etc.
EDIT: Punctuation
If then 15 point buy, you can still have decent stats, but 20 is already going into superheroes direction. I like it a bit more gritty. At the same time i feel some classes could just use more feats without making them overpowered or that much stronger, especially when you not only minmax something.
Fighters should still be ok, since they too receive an extra feat.
I didn´t think about summoning though yet.
Feats every level at lower levels is meh. I'm doing this with my current campaign and they enjoy it because the fun mid-level stuff is happening earlier when there is still a lot of the low-level danger involved. Couldn't say yet what effects it will have later on.
They're also on a 25 point buy, but that's because it's a two-man show with another half-PC (my g/f).
Yeah lower stats keep you from getting every feat right from the start.
Don´t forget the 13 INT requirement for Combat Expertise for example.
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If then 15 point buy, you can still have decent stats, but 20 is already going into superheroes direction. I like it a bit more gritty. At the same time i feel some classes could just use more feats without making them overpowered or that much stronger, especially when you not only minmax something.
Fighters should still be ok, since they too receive an extra feat.
I didn´t think about summoning though yet.
No the fighter isn't really okay. It's like saying everyone can swift action heal for 1d6 hp ever 4 levels. Yeah it makes the paladin a little bit tougher when he is out of his normal lay on hands...but the boost in power to a paladin isn't nearly as much as to a fighter. When a class becomes weaker relatively, it is generally considered a nerf.
Well then let the fighter have a reskinned godless healing.
But there are other classes which can´t heal themselves actually and i still want to encourage group play, so it´s quite ok if not everyone can do everything.