Whoa, what did i miss?
I decide to hang out with my best friend for an hour. Jeez, i was not expecting this....
Writing responses now.
On top of all the other eidolon goodies mentioned, they also get Evolutions to add maneuver effects like trip, pull, or grab on a hit, too.
And the shielding ability (bonuses for adjacent allies) is actually pretty tank-y, too.
Between eidolon, compelling hostility to the eidolon, summon spells, and battle field control spells, summoner really is a very good tank class. Far, far better than any non-caster.
Yeah, it's so much at the pinnacle of aggro-based option in PF that I mentioned it to you back near the top of this page... -_-
Sorry, I didn't actually click you link nor get your reference so I missed it. My bad :/
Druids are still really good in Pathfinder. You just have to decide between a caster druid and a combat druid. In 3.5 they could be good at everything. You could still make a good tanking druid.
I would recommend a Paladin but if things aren't so good with your GM right now that might not be a good idea. If he's being controlling, whether he means to or not, that might suck for you as a Paladin.
Grimmy is right. If anything druids are still amazing tanks. Wild armor allows you to get some very high armor classes, and druids can assume larger sizes to tank more effectively (provide more soft cover to more squares, have longer reach, clog up more area so your badguys can't move through it, and most excessively large druids cannot be easily overrun, nor can they be effectively tripped (as their tanking forms virtually always have 4+ legs, and good luck if they transform into a giant octopus).
Mind you, he still gets to play what he wants.(Not sure why this whole post is gray, lol.)
1. As others have said: thanks for showing up.
2. This pretty much seems like the "I win button" to me.
3. Your 'team work' concept will actually probably work better if they *aren't* perfectly balanced. They'll have to think more, strategize and synergize a lot better to overcome the challenges before them.A group of 5 barbarians, 5 rogues, or 5 wizards would reach vastly different solutions for the exact same problems.
Responses:
To Dave the GM: You Rock! Thank you for showing up (once again, thanks to Darth Grall for the Suggestion. Now... Darth, please casting that spell in me. I have a horrid Will save.)
Now, to respond to:
My idea of a tank as a role is something that can effectively protect it's party members, can take more than a few hits, has a high AC, something that can't be immediately eliminated from an encounter scenario.If there are any questions for me, please ask. I'm only on here to make things easy for a concerned player.Define your idea of tank. -> Problem solved -> ??? -> Profit.
My eidolon, had about 80 hp, 30 Str, a 28 AC, and damage reduction 5.
On top of that, if it died, i could resummon it 4 times a day with the spell Summon Eidolon (which would also boost its Str and Con via Augment Summoning feat) thus bringing it back with 1/2 hp. Meaning they have to defeat it 5 times, before it will not return (They have to go through over 250 hp, not counting its DR)
Reach would let my creature have healers behind it. Any who approach, get stopped, and attacked.
If it looks bad, i keep the eidolon there, retreat (with other squishy characters) back as far as feasable. The creature gets overrun or killed, either teleport it to me, or re-summon it.
("DPS" should be helping too, by the way)
If your asking my view on the Summoner/Eidolon, then here it is: The health potential is mediocre since as Paul informed me would be 40 without CON, if it reaches neg constitution score it becomes useless for 24 hours, it would need to burn it's feats to wield/wear equipment to gain effective AC.
Oh, i forgot to mention the other thread i started, http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz6l5r?Question-about-Summon-Eidolon#4
In my honest opinion it is better as a disposible beat stick from which I have already informed Paul as how to essentially keep it going without worry of healing it as a damage dealer.
Mind you, he still gets to play what he wants.
See above
My idea of a tank as a role is something that can effectively protect it's party members, can take more than a few hits, has a high AC, something that can't be immediately eliminated from an encounter scenario.If your asking my view on the Summoner/Eidolon, then here it is: The health potential is mediocre since as Paul informed me would be 40 without CON, if it reaches neg constitution score it becomes useless for 24 hours, it would need to burn it's feats to wield/wear equipment to gain effective AC.
In my honest opinion it is better as a disposible beat stick from which I have already informed Paul as how to essentially keep it going without worry of healing it as a damage dealer.
Mind you, he still gets to play what he wants.
Riiiight. So care to elaborate as to how a Sword/board fighter effectively protects it's party members. Trust me that's not an actual question because that isn't actually possible.
As for the Eidolon it's not hard to have one with a high AC/HP at all you should have instead asked Paul if he could think of any ways to make it tankier.
To be perfectly honest, from my own perspective, a sword and board fighter is better at it by feat selections. It has the proficiencies to get it started of which the Eidolon doesn't.
An example tank I created using all the same restrictions given was a human/samurai who utilizes tower shield and katana. AC 37 - 40 depending. Feats including:
Combat Expertise, Dodge, Shield Focus, Tower Shield Proficiency, Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, and Improved Critical.
We will be using a modified Hero Point system as well. The modified being challenged based to get 1-3 hero points back. Over 10 challenges total.
High AC means to monsters (and players) alike. "Screw this F**ker, let us target something else, we are never going to hit him until much later. We will deal with this piece of crap later."
Better a temporarily dead Eidolon than a dead Player Character.
Paul, again, let me say that the summon eidolon spell in conjunction with the information I showed you in the book, doesn't work if your eidolon is put to negatives equal to it's constitution score. The 24 hour thing is still in effect.
As a helpful note, if you take the standard action of banishing the eidolon when its at 0 or in negatives not reaching constitution score, then use the summon eidolon spell, that keeps it happy and around longer.
Anyone else feel free to chime in on this if you feel my ruling is incorrect.
THIS LINK (remove spaces):
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz6l5r?Question-about-Summon-Eidolon#4I can ask official SRD people (I WILL figure out how to get an official ruling on this).
For those who do not wish to click a link, here is the first post:
My GM says that because of the wording in the spell, if my eidolon dies, I cannot cast Summon Eidolon to bring it back.
His belief is because of the wording from AdvPH: (page 55)
A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that
takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way,
the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it
was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon
was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit
points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon
remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard
action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to
death, it cannot be summoned again until the following
day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane
by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and
banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious,
asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.And the wording of the spell "Summon Eidolon": page 248
You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon.
Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except
that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While
summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature
warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon
can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.
If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your
plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon
your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due
to damage.He says because of the wording "Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally", that is cannot be summoned for a full day, no matter what. I just want an official ruling on it.
Thanks
You can AWLWAYS, as a GM, just say "No, that spell does not exist in this world" and it will be so.
But, disputing wording with me, is a poor choice.
I'm a rusty DM, and my game of Kingmaker starts today.
I'm not even worried about encounters, I'm worried about the RP. XD
Read the Summon Eidolon post for a lot more details (not long, less than One page)
Better a temporarily dead Eidolon than a dead Player Character.Your right. But as I mentioned before the module I'm running takes less then 24 hours. A dead eidolon on a 24 hour count down between the beginning and near end of it could lead to PC deaths. I'm concerned with the longevity of the run.
I could just be underestimating the class, which in turn leads to me underestimating a really good player. Of which I don't doubt Paul as a player, so therefore I should not doubt his chosen class.
So in a way, thank you all for seeing my side of the equasion and giving a new perspective to a new pathfinder DM.
And if I played a "real" tank and I die....
"Anyone have 5,000 gp worth of diamonds?"
"..."
"No?"
"Oh well, wait until we get back to town"
vs.
Do not progress.... just wait.
Paul, from what you posted.
If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day.How much clearer does it get?
To Dave:
Tell me how many ways are there that YOU as god/Gm can do this line:This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage."
... and not mean death?
Me being passive aggresive:
Anyone else here read the thread I linked to?
Or
Anyone know of a way to get an OFFICIAL ruling?
Paul, again, let me say that the summon eidolon spell in conjunction with the information I showed you in the book, doesn't work if your eidolon is put to negatives equal to it's constitution score. The 24 hour thing is still in effect.
Actually I think you're wrong upon review, the damage line sorta makes it clear, but regardless he can still summon other creatures as well to tank in a pinch that scales with level. Sure they can die quicker & be dismissed, but they're a solid fall back for a summoner sans eidolon.
Also I don't see the problem with the eidolon dying; as it is harder to kill than a player dying since taking into account all it's potential HP(It's total and the number of summoner heals it can take as well as the life link where he can transfer hit points of his own to keep it alive), it will far outstrip a traditional fighter-tank for HP. And if you're doing more even than that, how was character going to live in the first place?
And before you say, the fighter has more because a cleric can heal him too; the real cleric/healer can heal his beasty too and the summoner doesn't lose actions for doing so since the eidolon has it's own initiative. He gets to attack with the beast & cast on his turn, that's one of the reasons Summoners are so dang powerful.
Trust us more experienced with PF, it will be just fine.
EDIT: Ninja'd so edited.
High AC means to monsters (and players) alike. "Screw this F**ker, let us target something else, we are never going to hit him until much later. We will deal with this piece of crap later."
This is a good point too. Don't forget about this Dave the DM.
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If the dice are with you, so be it
If the player is stupid, so be it
If the party does not care and rushes in, without learning, so be it.
I am fine with all of that
But, if you are saying you will not kill ME... then... ALL HAIL! KillMeDamnIt the Un-killable bard of destiny
EDIT: ... his sweat smells like chocolate, and his blood tastes like cheesecake.
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Complaining about rulings might be disruptive at the table but if you don't allow discussion about your rulings between sessions (like right now) then I think you are slipping into control freak territory.
Also there is a difference between changing a rule because you prefer it to work differently, vs misunderstanding a rule because of the wording. If you want to house-rule something players have to live with it. You tell them your house-rules before the game, if they agree to it then that should be the end of the story. But this summon eidolon question so far looks like a rules question that isn't settled yet.
Personally I think you can cast summon eidolon even if the eidolon was returned to it's home plane due to damage.
But I could be wrong.
Edit: Does 0 HP count as slain for an eidolon? Or do they go unconscious at 0 like PC's and only get sent back to their plane at negative con? I don't know much about eidolons.
Eidolons "die" at Negative Con. At that point they go back to their home plane.
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No. I was only commenting with the information given.
With a One Shot, assigned roles makes sense, especially if you are a new DM.
I hope once you get your sea legs, this role assignment is not so strict, but if everyone is having fun, then you are doing your job well.
Always remember, everyone having fun is the main goal of the game, and should come first. This includes you.
Eidolons "die" at Negative Con. At that point they go back to their home plane.
Well.. If neg con is the only way to send the eidolon back to its plane from damage, then summon creature must still work after negative con, since it says it still works if the eidolon was sent back to its plane from damage. Right?
what is wrong with using Summoned Monsters to Tank?
they take space; Check
they threaten squares; check
they soak damage; check
they deal damage; check
they hold enemy attention; check
lets see what other bonuses summoned monsters have
they are easier and cheaper to replace than a dead PC, cohort, eidolon or pet
they are easier to summon groups of. groups of augmented summoned monsters means more overall hit points
they cost less resources than healing the tank because you don't need to heal them
they are cheaper to equip than a pet, eidolon or cohort
they only require a round's worth of actions before they appear
they assist the action economy
they follow orders without question
they generally have additional powers a PC likely wouldn't possess.
they are expendable and are the only thing more disposable than animal companions and eidolons.
Paul, from what you posted.
If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day.How much clearer does it get?
That's pretty clear, for the ritual. The spell Summon Eidolon doesn't seem to have that problem though, as far as I can tell.
Paul on a technical aspect as much as you love technical and wording... what about ability damage? If its returned home with Con Damage, does it mean, in case of summon eidolon spell, that its dead upon summons or a wasted spell?
I'm just putting it out there as a serious question since I'm apparantly reading it wrong.
I think they come back in the condition they would be in if you had been able to wait a day and summon them via the ritual then. Taking some developer quotes that I recall seeing but cannot find at the time, the eidolon would return with the constitution score it had from ability damage (minimum 1, since an eidolon cannot actually die and thus cannot lose that last point of constitution) and half the maximum hit points that it would have at its adjusted constitution.
Paul on a technical aspect as much as you love technical and wording... what about ability damage? If its returned home with Con Damage, does it mean, in case of summon eidolon spell, that its dead upon summons or a wasted spell?
I'm just putting it out there as a serious question since I'm apparantly reading it wrong.
The spell says:
"This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage"
If you are saying Attribute damage counts, then players have a lot less to fear from Undead.
Ability drain = damage, thus Damage reduction gets a THOUSAND times better.
Also, my creature HAS damage reduction. can you drain over 5 points of ability? If so, EVERY frikkin' player is screwed!
I am ready for your next Scenario.
EDIT: Also, Con damage is against Max HP, not current. Your scenario to work, you have to drop a character to 0Con. Which is basically: "what happens if drop any creature to 0 Con?"
It dies (unless it is undead. but it is still technically (un)dead)
Thank you. So in this case it normally has say 80 hit points. If the Con is dropped to 1 he would lose roughly 40 hit points. So ability damage alone doesn't send it away. But on summon per spell would it then come back at 20 or 40 hit points?Paul on a technical aspect as much as you love technical and wording... what about ability damage? If its returned home with Con Damage, does it mean, in case of summon eidolon spell, that its dead upon summons or a wasted spell?
I'm just putting it out there as a serious question since I'm apparantly reading it wrong.
I think they come back in the condition they would be in if you had been able to wait a day and summon them via the ritual then. Taking some developer quotes that I recall seeing but cannot find at the time, the eidolon would return with the constitution score it had from ability damage (minimum 1, since an eidolon cannot actually die and thus cannot lose that last point of constitution) and half the maximum hit points that it would have at its adjusted constitution.
The eidolon would be banished when its constitution is reduced to zero -- but even though an eidolon cannot heal ability damage naturally, it would have to have to retain or recover that last point of constitution since it cannot actually die. This bit is in some developer quotes that I have not tracked down recently.
When you cast the Summon Eidolon spell, you would adjust the eidolon's maximum hit points to match its adjusted constitution score of 1, and then set its current hit points to half that value, so by the numbers you gave the eidolon's hit points would be in the ball park of 20 or so.
Thank you. So in this case it normally has say 80 hit points. If the Con is dropped to 1 he would lose roughly 40 hit points. So ability damage alone doesn't send it away. But on summon per spell would it then come back at 20 or 40 hit points?Paul on a technical aspect as much as you love technical and wording... what about ability damage? If its returned home with Con Damage, does it mean, in case of summon eidolon spell, that its dead upon summons or a wasted spell?
I'm just putting it out there as a serious question since I'm apparantly reading it wrong.
I think they come back in the condition they would be in if you had been able to wait a day and summon them via the ritual then. Taking some developer quotes that I recall seeing but cannot find at the time, the eidolon would return with the constitution score it had from ability damage (minimum 1, since an eidolon cannot actually die and thus cannot lose that last point of constitution) and half the maximum hit points that it would have at its adjusted constitution.
It depends. Do spells fade when a summoned creature goes away?
If no? then i can buff him to the max, and if he dies, and i re-summon him, he stays with all spells okay
If yes? He gets a de-buff, then I can un-summon him at any time and cast the Summon Eidolon spell to make him like new.
Your choice.
I thought the eidolon came back fresh every time with the exception of HP total.
After all you are only summoning an aspect, the real eidolon never leaves his home plane.
Whenever an Eidolon is summoned (through the spell or the class ability), if it has 0 con, its con is raised to 1.
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Dave,
Pretty much everyone most likely told you everything, but consider this a friendly advice only which wants to help you improve the gameplay experience, try making some campaign/scenario/module without assigning roles and see how it goes along. It doesn't have to be this scenario, but I would just keep it in mind in future.
Note on Summoner: He is beast. His AC and durability is almost legendary to be honest. Summons are just a tip of iceberg.
Happy gaming!
Good to know.
I thought the eidolon came back fresh every time with the exception of HP total.
After all you are only summoning an aspect, the real eidolon never leaves his home plane.
If that were true, spells like "Restore Eidolon" would not be necessary -- if you have time to cast such a spell, you also usually have time to dismiss and re-summon your eidolon. See also "Purified Calling" -- that spell specifically removes negative conditions that were afflicting an eidolon when it was last dismissed or banished.
Hit them really hard. Whatever build you have, make sure you can get people to say "We've got to put that guy down and fast!", that's how you play a tank. To make your character really tough, make use of crane wing or snake sidewinder.
I think ninjas make amazing tanks, easy access to style feats, shadow clones, and you can really make people pay attention to you with sneak attacks/ability damage. Ninjas also tend to appear relatively unarmored, meaning that people will think they're easy to tag, and go after them.
I thought the eidolon came back fresh every time with the exception of HP total.
After all you are only summoning an aspect, the real eidolon never leaves his home plane.
If that were true, spells like "Restore Eidolon" would not be necessary -- if you have time to cast such a spell, you also usually have time to dismiss and re-summon your eidolon. See also "Purified Calling" -- that spell specifically removes negative conditions that were afflicting an eidolon when it was last dismissed or banished.
Sorry I was wrong. Like I said I don't know much about the damn things.