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So one of the players was playing a 5th level Dwarven Foehammer in the game I was running. He overran a heavy war horse and proceeded along to overrun a second one. I guess having a +16 to overrun really helps with that, but it was an amazing tactical maneuver. Causing two people to lose their horses, one ending up prone with the horse.
What's are some ridiculous but amazingly useful tactics you've seen?
I read it as +16 to the CMB check to overrun.
05 base attack bonus
05 strength modifier
02 foehammer
02 improved bull rush
That's +14. I'm sure there is a cheap magical item or ally-cast spell that could get him the additional +2.
@Krome - I'm guessing it breaks down as follows:
+2 Foehammer (Sledgehammer ability)
+2 Improved Overrun
+5 BAB
+5 STR (18 str, belt of +2 str)
+2 Relentless (alternate racial trait, replaces stability)
A heavy horse has CMD 21 (25 vs Overrun). So the dwarf would have to roll a 9+ to overrun it and a 14+ to knock it prone.
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Hmmm... Dwarf overrunning a pair of heavy warhorses... how would I picture that? I see a Dwarf bent forward and running furiously forward, passing under the horses, one horse rears and loses it's rider, the other horse trips over it's own legs when the Dwarf scampers under it tickling it's belly and takes it's rider down with it :D See? I have saved my suspension of disbelief and taken the Dwarf down a peg or three at the same time! Never underestimate the imagination of an evil GM...
I picture the dwarf ramming his hard and shoulder into the horses ribs, knocking it over with a combination of brute strength and shock/surprise.
I picture the dwarf ramming his hard and shoulder into the horses ribs, knocking it over with a combination of brute strength and shock/surprise.
Well, I was joking :) But, have you hung around a lot of Clydesdales or Percherons lately? We're not talking about some spindly legged Arabian or even a sturdy riding horse like a Morgan. A heavy warhorse is a damn big animal, larger than even the modern breeds I mentioned above, with muscle to spare. Add in the weight of barding, rider, his gear etc. and you're talking a lot of weight, well centered on an animal trained to keep it's balance in the press of combat... the Dwarf is impressive to be sure, but the game sadly under rates the heavy warhorse.
Well, I was joking :) But, have you hung around a lot of Clydesdales or Percherons lately? We're not talking about some spindly legged Arabian or even a sturdy riding horse like a Morgan. A heavy warhorse is a damn big animal, larger than even the modern breeds I mentioned above, with muscle to spare. Add in the weight of barding, rider, his gear etc. and you're talking a lot of weight, well centered on an animal trained to keep it's balance in the press of combat... the Dwarf is impressive to be sure, but the game sadly under rates the heavy warhorse.
I picture the dwarf ramming his hard and shoulder into the horses ribs, knocking it over with a combination of brute strength and shock/surprise.
Got any pictures?
The sample dwarf in this thread is easily as strong as the horse you're describing. What's more, I'm willing to bet his skeletal structure and musculature is pound for pound denser than that of any horse's.
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Just one more example of dwarven superiority
Well, I was joking :) But, have you hung around a lot of Clydesdales or Percherons lately? We're not talking about some spindly legged Arabian or even a sturdy riding horse like a Morgan. A heavy warhorse is a damn big animal, larger than even the modern breeds I mentioned above, with muscle to spare. Add in the weight of barding, rider, his gear etc. and you're talking a lot of weight, well centered on an animal trained to keep it's balance in the press of combat... the Dwarf is impressive to be sure, but the game sadly under rates the heavy warhorse.
I picture the dwarf ramming his hard and shoulder into the horses ribs, knocking it over with a combination of brute strength and shock/surprise.
Got any pictures?
The sample dwarf in this thread is easily as strong as the horse you're describing. What's more, I'm willing to bet his skeletal structure and musculature is pound for pound denser than that of any horse's.
A Clydesdale is a bit small compared to some other draft horses, but it stands about 5 1/2 to 6 feet (at the shoulder) and weighs in at around 2,000 pounds give or take a few hundred pounds. The Percheron runs about the same height but generally outweighs the Clydsdale, running up to 2,500 pounds or so. The medieval great horse (a charger or heavy warhorse) is pretty much extinct (they quit breeding the big expensive beasts and they devolved into various draft horse breeds) but it was traditionally thought to be both taller and heavier than it's modern descendents. Historians have argued about this with some believing it was about 15-16 hands high (a bit smaller than modern draft horses). It was bred for size, strength, stamina and intelligence. If you've seen the modern Lippizaner stallions doing the fancy spins, kicks and tricks, then you know what a warhorse could do. Of course the medieval warhorse was probably larger than a Lippizaner but by how much, that's a good question. Still, you're talking about an animal bred for war, weighing upwards of 1800 pounds to a ton or more. A search should turn up pictures of the breeds, speculation on the size / ancestry of medieval war horses etc.
+2 Foe Hammer
+2 Relentless
+2 Improved Overrun (enemies can't move out of the way)
+4 Strength 18
+1 Bardic Performance
5 BAB
For a total of 16, +2 for charging (So technically a +18) and two good rolls and those horses were on the ground along with one of the riders.
Also, considering that you can have people flying by this level, I'm totally fine with a dwarf tossing down horses with some good rolls.
5th level is pretty damn heroic when you aren't comparing it to all level 20 characters all the time.
I picture the dwarf ramming his hard and shoulder into the horses ribs, knocking it over with a combination of brute strength and shock/surprise.The legs. You run into the legs because they are the weak point.
Clearly you'd want to sweep the legs. No mercy.
You forget that this was a relentless Dwarf, he was overrunning those things, not tripping them he shoved one off to the side and went for another. He could push up to 1500 lbs. It makes me a little sad that he died.
I picture the dwarf ramming his hard and shoulder into the horses ribs, knocking it over with a combination of brute strength and shock/surprise.The legs. You run into the legs because they are the weak point.
Yes, but that's not as impressive--and dwarves are nothing if not impressive.
+2 Foe Hammer
+2 Relentless
+2 Improved Overrun (enemies can't move out of the way)
+4 Strength 18
+1 Bardic Performance
5 BAB
For a total of 16, +2 for charging (So technically a +18) and two good rolls and those horses were on the ground along with one of the riders.Also, considering that you can have people flying by this level, I'm totally fine with a dwarf tossing down horses with some good rolls.
5th level is pretty damn heroic when you aren't comparing it to all level 20 characters all the time.
I don't have any doubt your game math is accurate. It just points out how flawed the games stats are for the "Heavy War Horse". Their stats are for a, relatively small, riding horse, not a Heavy War Horse in the classic / historic sense. As for flying, that's magic :) It excuses a lot. Of course, you can say the same about wonky game math / physics. It's certainly a heroic idea and doable within the frame of the game.
But, have you hung around a lot of Clydesdales or Percherons lately? We're not talking about some spindly legged Arabian or even a sturdy riding horse like a Morgan.
Wern't Percherons and Clydesdales used as draft and work horses? They were too bulky and clumsy to be used as war horses.
At least that is what my DM keeps telling me and she has a degree in animal sciences and raised horses once upon a time.
It is my understanding the truly huge draft horses made terrible war horses.
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I don't have any doubt your game math is accurate. It just points out how flawed the games stats are for the "Heavy War Horse". Their stats are for a, relatively small, riding horse, not a Heavy War Horse in the classic / historic sense. As for flying, that's magic :) It excuses a lot. Of course, you can say the same about wonky game math / physics. It's certainly a heroic idea and doable within the frame of the game.
+2 Foe Hammer
+2 Relentless
+2 Improved Overrun (enemies can't move out of the way)
+4 Strength 18
+1 Bardic Performance
5 BAB
For a total of 16, +2 for charging (So technically a +18) and two good rolls and those horses were on the ground along with one of the riders.Also, considering that you can have people flying by this level, I'm totally fine with a dwarf tossing down horses with some good rolls.
5th level is pretty damn heroic when you aren't comparing it to all level 20 characters all the time.
Dude, 5th level characters are characters at the absolute peak of mortal ability. Once they get to 5th level they become superhuman/elf/dwarf. They are no longer merely mortal. SO why wouldn't a dwarf at the peak of regular dwarf ability be able to overrun a horse? This is a game, not a reality construct.
But, have you hung around a lot of Clydesdales or Percherons lately? We're not talking about some spindly legged Arabian or even a sturdy riding horse like a Morgan.
Wern't Percherons and Clydesdales used as draft and work horses? They were too bulky and clumsy to be used as war horses.
At least that is what my DM keeps telling me and she has a degree in animal sciences and raised horses once upon a time.
It is my understanding the truly huge draft horses made terrible war horses.
Percherons and Clydesdales are modern breeds of draft horses. Draft horses were used for Napoleonic heavy cavalry in the 19th century. When cavalry like the Scots Greys went in shoulder to shoulder charges they were on this type of horse. As they were described at the time: "big men on big horses". There were ascetic complaints about the "hairy legged cart horses" that were often purchased for British heavy cavalry. There weren't complaints about their performance in combat. In short, they made fine cavalry horses. Light cavalry used lighter faster horses of course.
In any event, your'e not talking draft horses here and the modern breeds aren't a medieval war horse. They don't exist anymore. No one can be certain about the sizes involved (although some insist they were smaller (c.14-15 hands) while others think larger (c.16-18 hands). I brought up the size and stregnth of large modern horses in a discussion about a Dwarf over running multiple heavy war horses. Mainly because I don't think a lot of people realize just how large and strong these animals are.
While uncertainty exists about the size of medieval war horses, they were almost certainly larger than a modern saddle horse. They needed to be. A smaller faster horse was fine for a joust. It needed to accelerate from a standing start over a short distance. The horse that carried a knight into war was different, it needed to carry an armored man and his gear plus it's own barding and tack for long periods and be able to survive the crush of close combat. Once that lance has gone home and it's sword and board up close you want the strongest animal under you that can be had. If the enemies horse can outmuscle yours, you're toast. War horses are aggressive and trained for battle, they will push and move the enemy. In the Crusades moslem cavalry learned not to close with Crusader knights; not just because the men were heavily armored, but because the lighter more agile horses they used could not stand in the press against the larger western war horses.
So, there is considerable question about the specifics. It's one of those topics people speak of with certainty when there is none :) We all have opinions, based on experience and historical accounts. My opinion is that they were larger animals, if not quite as big as modern draft breeds. We know they were bred for size / strength, stamina, speed, and intelligence. All these factors are relative. Too big and you sacrifice speed, too small and strength suffers. I'm sure that then, as now, regional breeds differed and the preferences of knights in different areas varied as well. These animals were the most expensive item a knight could own. They made the armor look cheap. Breeding was very important to these animals, and it stopped when their purpose stopped. So now we have fun arguing about it :D
I don't have any doubt your game math is accurate. It just points out how flawed the games stats are for the "Heavy War Horse". Their stats are for a, relatively small, riding horse, not a Heavy War Horse in the classic / historic sense. As for flying, that's magic :) It excuses a lot. Of course, you can say the same about wonky game math / physics. It's certainly a heroic idea and doable within the frame of the game.
+2 Foe Hammer
+2 Relentless
+2 Improved Overrun (enemies can't move out of the way)
+4 Strength 18
+1 Bardic Performance
5 BAB
For a total of 16, +2 for charging (So technically a +18) and two good rolls and those horses were on the ground along with one of the riders.Also, considering that you can have people flying by this level, I'm totally fine with a dwarf tossing down horses with some good rolls.
5th level is pretty damn heroic when you aren't comparing it to all level 20 characters all the time.
Dude, 5th level characters are characters at the absolute peak of mortal ability. Once they get to 5th level they become superhuman/elf/dwarf. They are no longer merely mortal. SO why wouldn't a dwarf at the peak of regular dwarf ability be able to overrun a horse? This is a game, not a reality construct.
I just said "it's a game" in the post you're quoting... I really doubt anyone is looking for a reality construct in D&D / PF. Well, I hope not anyway :)