Hello all,
I have been reading the advice posts about building a Ninja, and have decided to compile it all into an attempt at building one:
Ninja 6
CG Medium Tengu / Humanoid (Tengu)
Init +4 ; Senses Perception +14, Low-light Vision
==DEFENSE==
AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +4 dex)
hp 48 (6d8+12)
SR 0
Fort +4, Ref +9, Will +6
Armor Studded Leather, Light
Defensive Abilities Uncanny Dodge (PFCR 34)
==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft/x4
Melee Scimitar +9 (1d6+4) 18-20/x2 CM +1
Ranged Shortbow +8 (1d6) 20/x3
Ranged Shuriken +8 (1d2+1) 20/x2
Special Attacks Natural Weapon (PFBty 263), Ki Pool [4] (PFCR 59), Sneak Attack [3d6] (PFCR 68)
==STATISTICS==
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 17, Cha 13
BAB +4, CMB +5, CMD +19
Feats Armor Proficiency (LIGHT) (PFCR 118), Dervish Dance (PFCaS: ISWG 286), Toughness (PFCR 135), Weapon Finesse (PFCR 136), Weapon Focus (Scimitar) (PFCR 136-137)
Ninja tricks Vanishing trick, Weapon Training, Shadow Clone
Skills Acrobatics +13, Bluff +10, Climb +5, Disable Device +13, Perception +14, Perform (dance) +6, Stealth +15, Use Magic Device +7
SQ Gifted Linguist (PFBty 263), Swordtrained (PFBty 263)
Traits Armor Expert (Combat) (PFAPG 327), Indomitable Faith (Faith) (PFAPG 328)
Languages Common, Tengu
Now, I do have some doubts regarding the character - I am expecting him to be well above average in his "rogue-type" functions, including being the face of the group if necessary, but also want him to be able to stand his own and assist in combat effectively. Also, I am not planning him for levels A through B, so I would like him to be scalable, having potential to improve.
Since he has so many skill points, I went ahead and used Int as a dump stat - when I do that, I obviously decided to lose access to Combat Expertise and so forth (trip, disarm and feint), because it would seem that fighting with one single weapon feint will not do until you have multiple attacks - is this assumption correct?
So, my main point is, combat wise what would be the options to take from here? Dodge, mobility and spring attack? Should I scrap it and go 2w fighting? Would it make sense for example to scrap this one all together and go for a Rogue (Swordmaster) for the objectives I am chasing?
As you can see the questions abound, and maybe even some of them are not logic for someone that knows the game as many of you out there, so please bear with me :D
Any advice is welcome, and thank you in advance.
This movie helps greatly with inspiration for Ninja's. I recommend everyone interested in Ninja's check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORJUizch-Hw
Why wouldn't you use a katana? Same crit range, it's a sword, and it's got a bigger damage die.
Personally, I think losing combat expertise isn't worth it, if only because improved two-weapon feint requires it, and that's probably the best route to go as a character with sneak attack.
Why wouldn't you use a katana? Same crit range, it's a sword, and it's got a bigger damage die.
Personally, I think losing combat expertise isn't worth it, if only because improved two-weapon feint requires it, and that's probably the best route to go as a character with sneak attack.
The only reason why I chose the scimitar, besides the crit range, was the Dervish Dance feat
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Here is my suggestion! Also, wakizashi's are awesome! In my opinion, this is fairly optimized. Take a loot!
Human Ninja
AFter Racial, 20 pt buy)
Str: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 12
Int: 8
Wis: 7
Cha: 14
Traits: Adopted -> Carefully Hidden (+1 to Will and small other bonus), and Reactionary
Feats:
Weapon Finese
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus: Wakizashi
Weapon Foucs: Shuriken
Rapid Shot
Point Blank Shot
Ninja Tricks:
Combat Trick (Extra Feat)
Weapon Training (Weapon Focus)
Flurry of Stars
Vanishing Trick
Master Ninja Tricks
Invisible Blade!
Advanced Talents: Crippling Strike
Evasion
Assasinate
Order:
1: Weapon Finese
1: Weapon Focus: Wakizashi
2:Combat Trick: Two-WEapon Fighting
3:Improved Initiative
4:Flurry of Stars
5:Point Blank Shot
6:Weapon Focus: Shuriken
7:Rapid Shot
8:Vanishing Trick
9:Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10:Invisible Blade
11: Extra Ki
12: Advanced Talents: Crippling Strike
13: Extra Ki
14:Evasion
15: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16: Assassinate
17: Extra Ki
18:
19: Far Shot
20:
I am aware that the Two-Weapon Fighting is considered the option of choice for most "sneak attack" types for the simple logic that it allows more sneak attacks :D
But would you say that one handed has no way out? I mean, from what I have read, to be good with 2 weapons you need to sink quite a few feats into it - couldn't these feats be similarly sinked into a 1h style with benefits on par?
@Broken:
Your build looks great to me, with a lot of versatility both in melee and in ranged combat, but I have a few questions:
- Why human? simply because of the bonus feat and extra skill points? Do you not feel that stuff like low light vision or dark vision make a difference for any rogue type out there?
- Don't you feel that the wis dump harms your will saves even further?
- Wouldn't you take Vanishing trick way earlier, seems like a life saver earlier on
I'll just stick to these - please understand they are not critics, they are questions from someone inexperienced.
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Good questions, all.
- Two-handed weapon is definitely the way to go with sneak attack. You don't have to do it in any way, depending on your character concept, but it's pretty much the best way to go from a damage standpoint.
-Yup, basically human because of the feat, skills, and floating +2 bonus. It's true that dark vision and low light vision can be loads of fun, but there are spells, potions and (I believe?) items that can let you get them. Also, I've found that dark and low light are potentially unused in most situations - not everybody in your party will have them, so you will need to bring light anyway. But, your play style (and GM) could easily make it a necessity. The only other race that I would suggest would be halfling, for a variety of reasons.
-It's true, dumping Wisdom hurts will. But that's basically it. Consider what we are using those point buy points for, it's well worth it. Dex, for example, boosts your ranged attack, melee attack, AC, initiative, and reflex, as well as a number of relevant skills. Con boosts your HP and Fort. Cha boosts you Ki and all your "Face of the Party" skills. (Int can be 8, given that we get 8 skill points a level, +1 for human).
Wisdom, by comparison, only boosts Will saves and a few not-too-useful skills. In my opinion, the trade off is well worth it. Your trait bonus helps, and certainly grab a cloak of resistance.
- If you like Vanishing trick, then by all means go for it. It's pretty versatile, and certainly good. However, this build is pretty feat intensive. You need to be good at two-weapon fighting, ranged, and getting sneak attack. Your call. If you have more of a combat heavy campaign, I'd stick with the feats. But if you are going to be doing lots of sneaking around, a few rounds of invisibility can be clutch!
As an fyi: Shuriken can be incredible, as long as you can get sneak attack. Rapid shot, flurry of stars, and extra ki point, and you can be looking at 6+ attacks all dealing sneak attack at low levels. At low levels, the only real viable time to do this is the first round of combat, when the enemy is flat-flooted (hence, improved initiative. Otherwise, stick to wakizasis.
Does that make sense? I'll answer more questions!
By the way, I agree with Blue Star: Feinting is great. Unfortunately, this build doesn't have the feats free to get to feinting. However, most of the shuriken stuff is more fun than for functionality, and that stuff can be cut for a feinting build.
Check out this for a rogue feinting build, and feet free to use that.
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Here is my suggestion! Also, wakizashi's are awesome! In my opinion, this is fairly optimized. Take a loot!
Human Ninja
AFter Racial, 20 pt buy)
Str: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 12
Int: 8
Wis: 7
Cha: 14
It looks optimized to fail will saves. Even with the trait, you're still at a cumulative -1 with a slow progression. You do not need a 20 Dexterity at first level.
I am aware that the Two-Weapon Fighting is considered the option of choice for most "sneak attack" types for the simple logic that it allows more sneak attacks :D
Ninja/Rogue damage is all about maximizing your sneak attack. Why not go 3-Weapon fighting which costs no feats and will triple your sneak attack damage?
Select Claw Attack as alternate racial trait for Tengu. This gives you 2 claw attacks in addition to the bite attack you already have and you are treated as having Improved Unarmed Strike for qualifying for other feats. This gives you 3 natural attacks at 1st level.
There's no need to have a high Dexterity with this build. You could go 16 Strength and 14 Dexterity. Also, the 3 natural attacks don't suffer -2 to hit. This is so much superior to 1-weapon or 2-weapon fighting in so many ways and you free up feats since you don't need weapon finesse or two weapon fighting feats.
no you need to play a grappler ninja!!
they do such stupid damage with IUS, sneak attack strangler, pinning knockout, sap master + pressure points... my god that charater does so much damage on living targets.
I hope your ninja is not using a sap with sap adept and sap master as they are not proficient with that weapon unlike the rogue. Perhaps you are using your bludgeoning non-lethal attacks with a different weapon.
- Two-handed weapon is definitely the way to go with sneak attack. You don't have to do it in any way, depending on your character concept, but it's pretty much the best way to go from a damage standpoint.
Err that is supposed to say two-weapon fighting not two-handed fighting right?
-Yup, basically human because of the feat, skills, and floating +2 bonus. It's true that dark vision and low light vision can be loads of fun, but there are spells, potions and (I believe?) items that can let you get them. Also, I've found that dark and low light are potentially unused in most situations - not everybody in your party will have them, so you will need to bring light anyway. But, your play style (and GM) could easily make it a necessity. The only other race that I would suggest would be halfling, for a variety of reasons.
A torch is normal light to 20', you get outside that range with normal vision and no Sneak Attacks for you. This may be GM dependent, but if you're playing PFS, HAVE DARKVISION.
-It's true, dumping Wisdom hurts will. But that's basically it. Consider what we are using those point buy points for, it's well worth it. Dex, for example, boosts your ranged attack, melee attack, AC, initiative, and reflex, as well as a number of relevant skills. Con boosts your HP and Fort. Cha boosts you Ki and all your "Face of the Party" skills. (Int can be 8, given that we get 8 skill points a level, +1 for human).
Wisdom, by comparison, only boosts Will saves and a few not-too-useful skills. In my opinion, the trade off is well worth it. Your trait bonus helps, and certainly grab a cloak of resistance.
You can have a 100 DEX but if you are paralyzed or working for the enemy, what good did it do you? I also wouldn't call Sense Motive, or Perception "not-too-useful". Honestly, I am less concerned by the WILL save (your WILL save is going to suck, I doubt you'll only be failing by 1 or 2) and more with the hits to Perception.
- If you like Vanishing trick, then by all means go for it. It's pretty versatile, and certainly good. However, this build is pretty feat intensive. You need to be good at two-weapon fighting, ranged, and getting sneak attack. Your call. If you have more of a combat heavy campaign, I'd stick with the feats. But if you are going to be doing lots of sneaking around, a few rounds of invisibility can be clutch!
I would really put Vanishing Trick a lot earlier. 1 shuriken with sneak attack damage is better than 4 without it.