hey there,
Sorry about the title, seems a bit pretentious, but it gets the point across.
I have been contemplating hybrid classes in general for a while now and I have come to a few conclusion. Of course, whether said conclusions are worth anything is up to you.
It's been my experience that, in general, hybrid classes can contribute either effective melee, or effective casting, never both. It should also be noted that they are not as effective in the chosen method of contribution due to a far less comprehensive suite of abilities in their chosen specialization. While I understand the reasoning behind that, I had hoped that the transition to pathfinder would make a hybrid that is a good caster at his niche suite of spells AND be able to contribute a fair amount in the melee arena. In my mind, that is the ideal of a hybrid, niche contributions that he/she is very good at, but not as good as focused classes.
The primary issue with this concept in the D20 system as I see it is in the arena of attributes. To be effective as a melee combatant, you need to be able to hit things. To do that requires a focus on hitting attributes. However, if your focus is your to hit attribute, your spell casting DC's suffer to the point that eventually, a great number of your already small suite of spells become ineffective, which essentially relegates the hybrid to buffing. Obviously, if you go the other direction, your potentials are reversed.
As a way of eliminating this disparity, hybrids are often given neat little tricks (versatile performance) that add something that makes the class more viable in some other way. while I totally appreciate this methodology, I have determined that perhaps it would be nice to be able to make a hybrid that doesn't necessarily get forced into the buffing corner with a little bit of clever mechanics.
The reason why casting and to hit attributes can't be the same is pretty obvious to most, it causes fairly large imbalances in class mechanics. Generally, if you make a class that has this feature, it is either too good in melee to be considered a true hybrid, or its casting potential gets broken pretty fast.
this is nothing new to most forum posters... The thing is, what if you were to change the parameters a little?
I'll give you an idea of what I'm thinking below. It's not fully fleshed out and I haven't done the crunch, but I hope it will allude to my meaning.
Lets go with standard hybrid stats.
D8 3/4 BAB 6+INT skills good fort and will.
Lets say this class is specialized in illusion and some self buffs like shield, similar to bard, but with fewer buffs and more mind effecting stuff. More specialized in stuff with saves, just for arguments sake.
It's primary casting stat is charisma.
Okay, so for this guys spell list to be any real use, as it has mostly spells with DC's, he needs his primary stat to be charisma. But we want this guy to be effective in melee as well. Doesn't really seem like it'll work right?
So lets add a class feature to this character that only functions when it is attached to an attack action(synonymous with standard action). Lets call it eldritch strike, like the warlocks ability, only it is a melee attack modifier. This power will work... 4 times per day plus charisma modifier at level one and one more time per day at each class level. In addition to this, the characters charisma modifier effects to hit and damage, but ONLY when eldritch strike is in use. this power adds 1D6 energy damage(choose between fire, ice, and electricity at first level) every two levels up to a maximum of 10D6 at level 19.
So what does this do? It makes the above class capable of the high DC's required to make his/her specialized casting suite effective AND it gives him/her an effective means of skirmishing with combat feats that are used somewhat infrequently due to everyone trying to hit iterative attacks all the time.
If you were to add invocations to the eldritch strike feature, it would also make for interesting debuff mechanics and add flexibility to the above while still maintaining a relatively stable sustained damage throughput that is worth doing without taking the shine away from focused melee classes. Basically, we want this class to shine as a melee skirmisher with some interesting mechanics that he can add to eldritch strike by way of invocations... no extra damage, just change the energy type or add a debuff. If we follow the warlock trope, lets say there are invocations and greater invocations, adding an invocation increases the cost of that particular attack by one point from your eldritch reserve, greater invocations would cost an extra two points.
I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this, pardon the wall of text.
Dotted. Interesting ideas.
It's also worth noting that the existing feat structure does not encourage hybrids to invest in them because of to hit penalties that they can ill afford. With a combat contribution that is largely relegated to standard attack actions, the above class could make use of some of those feats without as much issue as they would always be utilizing their largest to hit bonus.
Hybrid Theory was a great album, I liked Meteora too, but Minutes to Midnight was rather bland.
In all seriousness, are you going for a bard/3.5 warlock combo?
It's more of a thought experiment. The warlock dice pool and invocations simply made for an easy cross over to explain my thoughts as regards to pushing a hybrid into an arena that makes his melee contribution not directly compete with melee focused classes.
Is there a specific standard attack action that might unbalance this kind of combat direction? If, say, a class like the above could accomplish 70-80% of the average melee damage with vital strike line of feats (those that could be taken), would that be just enough?
I think that quantifying the parameters of what a sufficient melee contribution should be is the first step in determining what hybrid class should shoot for.
The reason it is a D6 die as opposed to a static +1 bump is that the effect is attached to a standard attack action. A rogue can, if fulfilling the sneak attack prerequisites, attack multiple times in a round with sneak dice. Straight damage modifiers also get multiplied on a critical, which is something that I am not certain this feature should do.
Essentially, the whole reason the attack is set up this way is so that it isn't stepping on the rogue's toes, or anyone's for that matter. Melee combatants as a whole rely on iterative attacks to accomplish there role. It makes a certain amount of sense that a melee caster would not.
The only certainty with this kind of concept is that the above melee contribution would likely outstrip other melee classes when skirmishing, which is a largely underplayed aspect of the game in any event.
So after reading some of the DPR averages on the forums, it became painfully obvious that adding 10D6 to a single attack at level 20 isn't going to work.... /facepalm
I do enjoy the idea of a standard action skirmisher though, someone who can deal even 70% of the standard damage of a damaging character would be sufficient. The only thing I'm struggling with is how to do it without people just discarding the idea altogether when they look at the bonuses for that one swing.
I think if I were to suggest something like d6's per level, how would that work out? At level ten, you'd be outputting the same damage per attack as a fireball spell plus weapon damage.
With a longsword with average charisma, arcane strike, and power attack you would be looking at 1D8+6+3+4+30.5 = 48 give or take. At level 20 This would be more like 1D8+11+5+8+5+6.5+61 = 101 damage per swing. That is well below what average DPR is doing at the top level, not as bad in the mid ranges. I could potentially make some the greater invocation features have more punch to compensate. I would just need to quantify the effective value of certain debuffs at the appropriate levels... This definitely needs more thought.
|
Transform (Su):
As a move-equivalent action, lose one of your prepared spells.
You gain a bonus to all attack and damage rolls equal to the level of the lost spell, for a number of rounds equal to the lost spell.
This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier plus your class level.
That's interesting, I feel as though it would be better suited to a caster with full spell progression though. I could see that working well as a druid or cleric. It definitely feels like its a double edged sword, and not very useful in the early levels... Something to think about, not sure its where I want to go though.
This whole idea of D6's per level is a non starter as well. The low levels would be hugely bloated in the damage department.
Here's another thought:
levels 1, 3, and 5 each grant D6 damage dice. At level 6 the dice category improves to D8's. At 7, 9, and 11 additional D8's are granted. At level 12 dice categories improve again to D10's. The end result would be 10D12 damage dice at level 19.
On that note, charisma to hit is not really necessary with a skirmisher. 3/4 base attack and bonuses to hit from a finesse weapon... maybe 26 dexterity?
15+5+8+1= 29 to hit without too much effort. So you've got a 50/50 shot of hitting a gold dragon at level 20.... That will need to be higher, at least 35 I think would do. That way they aren't totally screwed by a buffed version.
|
The big thing that makes hybrid fighter/arcane casters have such a hard time is the MAD issue. You need str for damage, dex for protection in light armor or no armor at all, con for HP and a casting stat. That is monk level of MAD...which is bad. The only way to get a hybrid fighter arcane caster to not have that issue is do something that dragon age does with thier arcane warrior. Have the casting stat be the combat stat. You activate a class ability, your casting stat of choice for this class is now your strength for to hit and damage. There, no need for funny dice adding and you cut out one need stat.
The idea of having the hybrid spell list being reduced by making in narrow instead of shallow is a good idea...however, NOT with illusion, trans and conjuration schools. Those schools are just way to versitile to be a good way to narrow the power of the hybrid. Necro, evocation, enchantment and abjuration are fine and divination is TOO narrow.
And finally, to be a real hybrid, you need a way to deal with the whole either spell cast or fight deal. That is why the magus has spell combat. That is why the old 3.x spellswords got spell channel. You want away to combine the spellcasting and the fighting into one. Personally I like the spell channeling albility (although it was kinda broken with a few spells...like say antimagic field or any of the solid fog spells). Otherwise you can be a pretty dang efficent either attack or cast hybrid as it is now with fi/wiz/EK. BAB 16, CL 17, str 13+6 item+8 giant form 2 = 27. Add in +5 weapon (greater magic weapon...because you can have it on all day long) and your to hit is 29 before feats or any other buffs you may have...like say greater heroism (nice long lasting buff). For fun, take the shield bash line and create pit line to shield bash your enemies into various pits. And when you need to get serious, you can still cast your encounter ending spells at a decent DC (19 int + 5 level + 6 item at the very least).
The big thing that makes hybrid fighter/arcane casters have such a hard time is the MAD issue. You need str for damage, dex for protection in light armor or no armor at all, con for HP and a casting stat. That is monk level of MAD...which is bad. The only way to get a hybrid fighter arcane caster to not have that issue is do something that dragon age does with thier arcane warrior. Have the casting stat be the combat stat. You activate a class ability, your casting stat of choice for this class is now your strength for to hit and damage. There, no need for funny dice adding and you cut out one need stat.
The idea of having the hybrid spell list being reduced by making in narrow instead of shallow is a good idea...however, NOT with illusion, trans and conjuration schools. Those schools are just way to versitile to be a good way to narrow the power of the hybrid. Necro, evocation, enchantment and abjuration are fine and divination is TOO narrow.
And finally, to be a real hybrid, you need a way to deal with the whole either spell cast or fight deal. That is why the magus has spell combat. That is why the old 3.x spellswords got spell channel. You want away to combine the spellcasting and the fighting into one. Personally I like the spell channeling albility (although it was kinda broken with a few spells...like say antimagic field or any of the solid fog spells). Otherwise you can be a pretty dang efficient either attack or cast hybrid as it is now with fi/wiz/EK. BAB 16, CL 17, str 13+6 item+8 giant form 2 = 27. Add in +5 weapon (greater magic weapon...because you can have it on all day long) and your to hit is 29 before feats or any other buffs you may have...like say greater heroism (nice long lasting buff). For fun, take the shield bash line and create pit line to shield bash your enemies into various pits. And when you need to get serious, you can still cast your encounter ending spells at a decent DC (19 int + 5 level + 6 item at the very least).
While I appreciate your point of view, I am not certain I agree with some of your statements. The bard is one of the most accepted hybrid classes and its spell list consists of illusions and conjuration with a smattering of enchantment. The spell list is there with the intent that it offer versatility, giving a melee class blasting seems redundant unless you have a means of applying both at the same time, which immediately raises balancing issues. Spell casting and melee can be mutually exclusive and still be worthwhile as long as both are effective without being exactly as good as the focused classes. A reduced spell list and spontaneous casting immediately makes the hybrid caster less effective than the focused casters, so no issue there. Melee is the only real concern as it is pretty easy to catch up if you make a mistake.
Another thing that will not work is just taking a casting stat like charisma and pasting it on as the melee contributor carte blanche. The class would immediately be dipped by everybody for their charisma classes. Can you imagine a paladin with everything dumped into charisma? That is frightening...*shudders*
If I were to look at it with iterative attacks, I would probably just replace performances with charisma to hit and damage. It would help catch up to standard melee classes.. Snowflake war dance without the fatigue.
|
|
The bard isn't a narrowed spell list however. They are a shallow one as they are a 6 level spell list. You can have a shallow list and be fine with any of the schools. I thought your idea was to give your hybrids a 9 level spell list.
Who says you get the ability at level 1? Or all of it at level 1. You can have it be staged where you get +1 ever couple levels or something. And a paladin is gonna dump strength for charisma for this ability...and he plans on wearing armor HOW? Note that the ability I suggested is only for to hit and damage...not to wear armor like in dragon age (as we don't have stat req for armor in this game beyond encumbrance). Yeah a sorcerer and wizard/witch may dip for it (cha or int based respectively)...but the lost caster level(s) for a bit of extra damage in melee isn't game breaking. Hell that is what you do with the EK anyways already. For the bard and magus...well it would be more useful for them...but I don't mind if those two classes gets a bit of a boost anyways. The synthesis summoner or the mutengen alchemist I can see a problem with however. Having the ability lost if you MC could be an option I suppose. Meh, it's just an idea floating in my head anyways at this point :P .
As for evocation while swinging a sword around...well yeah it's damage...but it's magical damage. You would need to balance the damage output of course, but remember with the narrow list, they really aren't like a fighter/wizard anymore, they are more like a fighter with just different damage...so they should be able to do around fighter damage...more when they nova and less when they are not using class resources.
I see where the disconnect is, I had referred to hybrids in the traditional sense, meaning that they had sixth level spells only. The issue that I was trying to tackle was that there casting was largely relegated to spells that had no saves after reaching a certain level because they cant get their save DC's high enough.
Dot.
|
|
I see where the disconnect is, I had referred to hybrids in the traditional sense, meaning that they had sixth level spells only. The issue that I was trying to tackle was that there casting was largely relegated to spells that had no saves after reaching a certain level because they cant get their save DC's high enough.
Ah...I see. Yeah total disconnect on terms used :P . Well how about a staggered bonus to DC then? +1 every 5 levels maybe? That would seem like the easiest method of fixing the don't use save spells at high levels. The number may need to be tweaked of course.
That had occurred to me. The issue there is that if you have a specialized spell list and a +5 to DC's over 20 levels you could potentially buff your spell DC's into unsavable territory by just focusing on it.
It seems to be one of the real difficulties with the underlying mechanics of the game. A hybrid requires a different set of rules than those that the game functions on currently. I think that the easiest route to take is probably the wardance option up thread. All the damage bonuses would only be applied to a single one handed weapon because of casting requirements and the resource mechanic balances out the attribute consolidation some. I would have to flesh it out so that you could burn through more of your resource quickly to gain some small buff. At least enough to make the resource something that you actually have to track at higher levels.
|
|
That had occurred to me. The issue there is that if you have a specialized spell list and a +5 to DC's over 20 levels you could potentially buff your spell DC's into unsavable territory by just focusing on it.
It seems to be one of the real difficulties with the underlying mechanics of the game. A hybrid requires a different set of rules than those that the game functions on currently. I think that the easiest route to take is probably the wardance option up thread. All the damage bonuses would only be applied to a single one handed weapon because of casting requirements and the resource mechanic balances out the attribute consolidation some. I would have to flesh it out so that you could burn through more of your resource quickly to gain some small buff. At least enough to make the resource something that you actually have to track at higher levels.
I doubt it. +5 DC (my suggestion is +4 over 20 level BTW) is gonna be 2 higher then a full caster using highest level spells (6 vs 9). The full caster WILL have more casting stat...so at best, you kinda end up in equal footing with them...but most likely will be 1-3 below the full casters, which is still usable DCs.
Having a higher casting stat isn't a guarantee though. If you build a class, you have to build it with the expectation that people will try to game the system. If you give a caster a +4 to his DC from caster levels, that caster is likely to try and max out that advantage.
Basically, I'm just saying that putting something that is so easy to manipulate into a class level might not be the ideal way to go.